Avodah Mailing List

Volume 02 : Number 151

Wednesday, February 3 1999

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:40:04 +0200 (GMT+0200)
From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
Subject:
[none]


Subject: Re: Jewish Center

>>I just wanted to clarify, that in my calling the Gabbai of the JC a Mamzer, I
>>WAS NOT , repeat WAS NOT reffereing to Rabbi I. Weitzchner. I know Rabbi

I thought Rabbi J.J. Schachter was the rabbi of the Jewish Center?

Eli Turkel


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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:37:57 -0500
From: "Pechman, Abraham" <APechman@mwellp.com>
Subject:
RE: Learning all night


> -----Original Message-----
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com [mailto:richard_wolpoe@ibi.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 1999 12:43 PM
> To: avodah@aishdas.org
> Subject: Lerning all night
> 
> 
> >> The Modzitzer Rebbe ZT'L, that he used to stand by a
> shtender and learn B'Kol Ram all night until he was so 
> exhausted that he
> was out of strength, normally very close to morning.  He 
> would then fall
> asleep until late in the morning, after all of the minyanim <<
> 
> R. Meir Berglass one gave a dvar Torah at a melave malko as follows:
> 
> There are 2 shitos, one is to learn all night and miss minyan 
> the other to go to
> bed on time and get up for minyon.
> 
> Says the Possuk
> Rabbos machshovos b'leiv ish (i.e. differing opnions on this matter)
> 
> V'atzas Hashem Hi (and Hashem's advice is):
> 
> TOKUM!  (i.e get up for minyan!)
> 
> Cute, no?
> 
> Rich Wolpoe  
> 

If you continue in the kpittel:

Atzas Hashem (Hashem's advice is):

L'olam ta'amod (get up any time).

Eilu v'eilu?

Avi Pechman


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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:46:16 -0500
From: "Daniel B. Schwartz" <schwartzesq@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:
Re: Rav Klein


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Many people seem to be discussing alot of rumors about one Menashe Klein,
known to be the Grand Rav of Ungvar (currently in Brooklyn, New York).
Before analysing what Menashe Klein has done, said or is believed to be have
done and said, we should establish one basic fact, his rabbinic credentials.
Can anyone on this list prove that this man actually has a smicha?

DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ ESQ: SPECIALIZING IN ALL AREAS OF
COMPLEX, COMMERCIAL AND MATRIMONIAL LITIGATION
                         INQUIRE AT
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
-----Original Message-----
From: Isaiah Beilin <ibeilin@draper.com>
To: avodah@aishdas.org <avodah@aishdas.org>
Date: Wednesday, February 03, 1999 1:19 PM
Subject: Rav Klein


> You seem to want to uncover the truth for the "National Enquirer"
> section of the Aishdas group. I read earlier that this is what they do
> in a Kotzker Bet Hamedrash.  You do not need my heter. Who am I to stop
> you? So, please do not mention my name any more when you post something.
> I noticed that there are a few people from Bate dinim subscribing. Discuss
>it
> with them. Also, there are other organizations such as the Agudas Rabonim,
> RCA, Igud  etc. who may help you. You may also look up Rav Klein's  number
> and call it. Make an appointment and verify it. After all, you should
> confront him. Surely, you have to pasul a person "befonov".
>
> When you find out the facts then I am sure the group will be thrilled
> to hear your findings. I probably will unsubscribe by then. But, I am
> positive you will make sure I know.
>
> But, please stop addressing me. I am not the Almighty. It is to him
> you will please deal with.
>
>
>
>At 12:03 PM 2/3/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 16:49:12 -0500
>>> From: Isaiah Beilin <ibeilin@draper.com>
>>> Subject: Question about Rav Klein
>>>
>>>   I have no intention of responding. It is just plain insulting to all.
>>
>>===> If the person mentioned is indeed guilty of the accusations, then
>>there is a serious issue of chillul hashem in such conduct.
>>
>>
>>>   This is not the way to start the issue
>>>   again. It is not the business of this group to investigate and solve
>these
>>>   kinds of problems. If this is true let the bate dinim do it. They got
>>>   involved with R. Rackman and if they feel there is a problem then
>>>   they will officially speak up.
>>
>>===> I think that it IS important for individuals to be aware here, as
>>well.  *if* (and I empahsize that *I* do not know one way or the other)
>>this posek was involved with "kiddushei ketana" or *if* he was involved
>>with an improper heter me'ah rabbonim, then there is very good reason for
>>people NOT to consult this person to ask sh'ailot.  To wait for the "Batei
>>dinim" to speak up -- which can be a time consuming process means that
>>otehr innocent people can be hurt in the interim.  Apparently, R. Beilin
>>is more concerned for the "honor" of the "one" as opposed to the potential
>>hurt of the many.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>   Let us face it. If a man gets a heter meah rabonim improperly he is a
>>>   bigamist who is "over an issur". Now you are choshed a godol batorah
>>>   for causing a man to sin. Shame on this group. This is not the way
benei
>>>   torah should behave.
>>
>>===> If a man is a bigamist, he is violating an issur d'rabbannan and his
>>children are OK -- however, the WIFE ends up an aguna...  There appears to
>>be a blind spot that is SO concerned about a "godol batorah" but not
>>showing equal concern for plain JEWS.
>>
>>I remind everyone that I simply ASKED if the one who protested was able to
>>confirm that this "gadol" is NOT involved in these very disturbing areas.
>>Seems to me to b a very simple yes/no.  And, such a yes/no would clearly
>>resolve the issue for us.  The unwillingness to answer leads one to
>>possibly suspect that there may very well be a basis for such
>>"accusations" but that it is more important to practice "tochecha" and
>>"protect" one person's honor REGARDLESS of the hurt and damage done to
>>others.
>>
>>Again, I repeat the original request.  Can we state with a reasonable
>>degree of certainty that the afore-mentioned gadol is not "involved" with
>>the issues of "kiddushei ketana" and/or "improper heter me'ah rabbanan
>>(where the woman is not allowed access to her get".  Further, I am not
>>looking for a debate -- only a simple answer.
>>
>>
>>--Zvi
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 17:07:00 -0500
>>> From: "Ari Z. Zivotofsky" <azz@lsr.nei.nih.gov>
>>> Subject: Re: Question about Rav Klein
>>>
>>> Oh, I get it.  In a Jewish witch hunt you are guilty until proven
innocent.
>>> Rabbi Beilin defends R. Klein's good name and now R. Klein is guilty
>>> of some rumor until R. Beilin can prove him otherwise.
>>
>>===> Sorry -- there is no witch hunt here.  I *think* that the original
>>poster would not have made the claims agianst R. Klein without at least
>>SOME basis.  If R. Beilin want to defend R. Klein's "good name", all he
>>has to do is state definitively that R. Klein was NOT involved in that
>>stuff.  Please note that R. Beilin did NOT do that (at least, it was not
>>obvious to me).
>>After having attended sessions describing the misery of Agunot, I feel
>>very very nasty toward ANYONE involved in such activity that exacerbates
>>their plight. Maybe R. Beilin
>>(with all due respect) should spend some time talking to FRUM women
>>involved in organizations aiding agunot and/or talking to members of the
>>Beth Din of America (RCA/OU) that work hard to secure gittin for these
>>women so that he could see the real horror of a "heter me'ah rabbanan --
>>where the wife has no access to her get".
>>
>>I would emphasize that I will be most delighted to learn that R. Klein is
>>NOT involved in such matters -- all I ask is for some clarity.
>>--Zvi
>>
>

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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 13:58:24 -0500
From: David Glasner <DGLASNER@FTC.GOV>
Subject:
re: naming names


Moshe Luchins wrote:
<<<
Mr Glasner,

     I left out the name because I have noticed a strong tendency on this
list, of some, to kill the messenger when they don't like the message.  So
that I'm a saint but I'd rather people "yell" at me then at the RY in
question.  As to your proof from giving a divar Torah it is simply not true
- - case in point I spoke in a right of center Yeshivah on Rosh Hashanah a
few years ago and quoted a MO gadol as an "adam gadol"  maybe I'm wrong
-
but I'm consistent.  If Mica thinks there's a real toleles in naming names
I will, but I think bclal the list would be better off talking ideas and
not naming people.  I'm sorry if you disagree, and for the future I will
try b'n  to stay away from such problems by not getting overly involved in
sensitive issues at least to the extent of bringing anonymous posokim -
which I agree have no great weight in an intellectual discussion.
>>>

I don't think that I find your response totally persuasive, but I see no need  to
argue about it.  However, I can't resist observing the irony in your withholding
the name the Rosh Yeshiva in question to protect him from being yelled at
after you have invoked his anonymous authority to cast aspersions on the
conduct of various gedolim of earlier generations whose identity is widely
known.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov  


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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 13:54:29 -0500
From: Isaiah Beilin <ibeilin@draper.com>
Subject:
Re: Rav Klein


 
  Please don't address me. Your question is funny. Are you a comedian.
  read his seforim and then decide. The shmiras shabos kehilchoso
  quotes him. Look (for example) in ch. 40 of said book where Rav Klein
  is matir carrying nitroglcoryn in a reshus harobaim. This is a kula since
  most are only matir ina karmelis.

  But, if you find out he does not tell Reb Moshe. He addressed him as Horav 
  Hagoon.
_________________________________________________________________________
At 01:46 PM 2/3/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Many people seem to be discussing alot of rumors about one Menashe Klein,
>known to be the Grand Rav of Ungvar (currently in Brooklyn, New York).
>Before analysing what Menashe Klein has done, said or is believed to be have
>done and said, we should establish one basic fact, his rabbinic credentials.
>Can anyone on this list prove that this man actually has a smicha?
>
>DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ ESQ: SPECIALIZING IN ALL AREAS OF
>COMPLEX, COMMERCIAL AND MATRIMONIAL LITIGATION
>                         INQUIRE AT
>SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Isaiah Beilin <ibeilin@draper.com>
>To: avodah@aishdas.org <avodah@aishdas.org>
>Date: Wednesday, February 03, 1999 1:19 PM
>Subject: Rav Klein
>
>
>> You seem to want to uncover the truth for the "National Enquirer"
>> section of the Aishdas group. I read earlier that this is what they do
>> in a Kotzker Bet Hamedrash.  You do not need my heter. Who am I to stop
>> you? So, please do not mention my name any more when you post something.
>> I noticed that there are a few people from Bate dinim subscribing. Discuss
>>it
>> with them. Also, there are other organizations such as the Agudas Rabonim,
>> RCA, Igud  etc. who may help you. You may also look up Rav Klein's  number
>> and call it. Make an appointment and verify it. After all, you should
>> confront him. Surely, you have to pasul a person "befonov".
>>
>> When you find out the facts then I am sure the group will be thrilled
>> to hear your findings. I probably will unsubscribe by then. But, I am
>> positive you will make sure I know.
>>
>> But, please stop addressing me. I am not the Almighty. It is to him
>> you will please deal with.
>>
>>
>>
>>At 12:03 PM 2/3/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 16:49:12 -0500
>>>> From: Isaiah Beilin <ibeilin@draper.com>
>>>> Subject: Question about Rav Klein
>>>>
>>>>   I have no intention of responding. It is just plain insulting to all.
>>>
>>>===> If the person mentioned is indeed guilty of the accusations, then
>>>there is a serious issue of chillul hashem in such conduct.
>>>
>>>
>>>>   This is not the way to start the issue
>>>>   again. It is not the business of this group to investigate and solve
>>these
>>>>   kinds of problems. If this is true let the bate dinim do it. They got
>>>>   involved with R. Rackman and if they feel there is a problem then
>>>>   they will officially speak up.
>>>
>>>===> I think that it IS important for individuals to be aware here, as
>>>well.  *if* (and I empahsize that *I* do not know one way or the other)
>>>this posek was involved with "kiddushei ketana" or *if* he was involved
>>>with an improper heter me'ah rabbonim, then there is very good reason for
>>>people NOT to consult this person to ask sh'ailot.  To wait for the "Batei
>>>dinim" to speak up -- which can be a time consuming process means that
>>>otehr innocent people can be hurt in the interim.  Apparently, R. Beilin
>>>is more concerned for the "honor" of the "one" as opposed to the potential
>>>hurt of the many.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Let us face it. If a man gets a heter meah rabonim improperly he is a
>>>>   bigamist who is "over an issur". Now you are choshed a godol batorah
>>>>   for causing a man to sin. Shame on this group. This is not the way
>benei
>>>>   torah should behave.
>>>
>>>===> If a man is a bigamist, he is violating an issur d'rabbannan and his
>>>children are OK -- however, the WIFE ends up an aguna...  There appears to
>>>be a blind spot that is SO concerned about a "godol batorah" but not
>>>showing equal concern for plain JEWS.
>>>
>>>I remind everyone that I simply ASKED if the one who protested was able to
>>>confirm that this "gadol" is NOT involved in these very disturbing areas.
>>>Seems to me to b a very simple yes/no.  And, such a yes/no would clearly
>>>resolve the issue for us.  The unwillingness to answer leads one to
>>>possibly suspect that there may very well be a basis for such
>>>"accusations" but that it is more important to practice "tochecha" and
>>>"protect" one person's honor REGARDLESS of the hurt and damage done to
>>>others.
>>>
>>>Again, I repeat the original request.  Can we state with a reasonable
>>>degree of certainty that the afore-mentioned gadol is not "involved" with
>>>the issues of "kiddushei ketana" and/or "improper heter me'ah rabbanan
>>>(where the woman is not allowed access to her get".  Further, I am not
>>>looking for a debate -- only a simple answer.
>>>
>>>
>>>--Zvi
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 17:07:00 -0500
>>>> From: "Ari Z. Zivotofsky" <azz@lsr.nei.nih.gov>
>>>> Subject: Re: Question about Rav Klein
>>>>
>>>> Oh, I get it.  In a Jewish witch hunt you are guilty until proven
>innocent.
>>>> Rabbi Beilin defends R. Klein's good name and now R. Klein is guilty
>>>> of some rumor until R. Beilin can prove him otherwise.
>>>
>>>===> Sorry -- there is no witch hunt here.  I *think* that the original
>>>poster would not have made the claims agianst R. Klein without at least
>>>SOME basis.  If R. Beilin want to defend R. Klein's "good name", all he
>>>has to do is state definitively that R. Klein was NOT involved in that
>>>stuff.  Please note that R. Beilin did NOT do that (at least, it was not
>>>obvious to me).
>>>After having attended sessions describing the misery of Agunot, I feel
>>>very very nasty toward ANYONE involved in such activity that exacerbates
>>>their plight. Maybe R. Beilin
>>>(with all due respect) should spend some time talking to FRUM women
>>>involved in organizations aiding agunot and/or talking to members of the
>>>Beth Din of America (RCA/OU) that work hard to secure gittin for these
>>>women so that he could see the real horror of a "heter me'ah rabbanan --
>>>where the wife has no access to her get".
>>>
>>>I would emphasize that I will be most delighted to learn that R. Klein is
>>>NOT involved in such matters -- all I ask is for some clarity.
>>>--Zvi
>>>
>>
>
> 


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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:55:28 -0600 (CST)
From: Cheryl Maryles <C-Maryles@neiu.edu>
Subject:
Re: Rav and tefillah b'tzibbur, eiruv tavshilin


On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 C1A1Brown@aol.com wrote:
> 
> On a side note, I believe (and I didn't double check) that the GR"A said A"T
> was mistakingly read as eiruv tavshilin - it should be Eiruv Techumin,
> stressing that Avraham kept even mitzvot whose d'orayta status was
> questionable.
> 
> -Chaim
> 
The rishonim, see ritva ,ask why it specifically includes Eruv Tavshilin
and gives an answer eiyen sham. What interests me more is that the gra
can maintain that A"T was misread when rishonim understood it to be Eruv
tavshilim. 
P.S. thanks for the mekoros, after looking up the relevant halachos in
tefilla k'hilchata--it seems that someone who falls into the category of
TOrah umnaso (his job is Torah) can be much more lenient with the Halachik
issues which were raised. 
Elie Ginsparg 


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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:34:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@IDT.NET>
Subject:
Re: Avodah V2 #150


> 
> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:24:00 -0500
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> Subject: Just what is Torah Umada?
> 
> I'll concede that there is no one definition.  There are at least 2 major models
> discussed at YU.
> 
> 1) Model #1  Give the student A yeshivish learning in the morning and a real 
> college education in the afternoon, and after 4 years let him synthesize.  This 
> allowed for the liberal arts college to be realitvely free academecially (even 
> teach apikorsus, etc.)  The Yeshiva side allowed for many Agudist Roshei Yeshiva
> who gave a more Chareidi viewpoint.
> 
> 2) Model #2.  Have the instructors themselves teach, demonstrate, and practice 
> synthesis.
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, #2 has never been the dominant model at YU, just 
> perhaps idealized.  The more compartmentalized Model #1 has largely prevaled.

===> I believe that in YU's *early* years, one saw something more like
"model #2".  While I was not in YU at the time, I *heard* about "Dean
Sar" [ZT"L] ... I *heard* about the Rov's brother [ZT"L] -- who taught
chemistry....
When I was in YU, I had Prof Peretz Posen as a Physics Professor and I
recall while working in the Lab as a work-study assignment that he
explained to me why learning early in the morning (we are talking BEFORE
Tefilla here...) was so worthwhile....
There were other Frum Teachers, as well who set their own examples...
What I *do* believe has happened is that YU, itself has turned away from
that path... A few years ago, when they had to choose a dean for Yeshiva
College, there were candidates who were certainly scholarly (one being a
researcher at Sloan-Kettering...) and ALSO frum -- yet Dr. Lamm (in his
role as president of the University) chose someone who may have had better
academic credentials -- but whose relationship to Torah seemed less than
solid...
--Zvi
> 
> Regards,
> Rich Wolpoe
> ------------------------------
> From: Isaiah Beilin <ibeilin@draper.com>
> Subject: Rav Klein
> 
>  You seem to want to uncover the truth for the "National Enquirer"
>  section of the Aishdas group. I read earlier that this is what they do
>  in a Kotzker Bet Hamedrash.  You do not need my heter. Who am I to stop 
>  you? So, please do not mention my name any more when you post something.

===> Not at all.  However if the poster is going to protest when someone
states certain information about a person, it seems that the poster can
ALSO simply state that the "charges" are false.  There has been no such
unequivocal statement.


>  I noticed that there are a few people from Bate dinim subscribing. Discuss
> it 
>  with them. Also, there are other organizations such as the Agudas Rabonim, 
>  RCA, Igud  etc. who may help you. You may also look up Rav Klein's  number 
>  and call it. Make an appointment and verify it. After all, you should 
>  confront him. Surely, you have to pasul a person "befonov".

===> *I* would remind everyone that I did not "pasul" anyone and made very
clear that I only asked the question because the issue had been raised
(and not by me).  However, once it is raised, then there is no reason why
it should not be dealt with in a direct manner.

> 
>  When you find out the facts then I am sure the group will be thrilled 
>  to hear your findings. I probably will unsubscribe by then. But, I am
>  positive you will make sure I know.

====> Again, I don't know the facts.  I asked because the issue was raised
and it seems to be an important one.  If you know the facts, then please
tell us.  I certainly hope that such a person was NOT involved in such
matters as were alleged.



> 
>  But, please stop addressing me. I am not the Almighty. It is to him 
>  you will please deal with.

===> The reason for addressing the poster was that he was the one who
protested the accusations leveled against the person in question.
I am not quite sure what that has to do with "the Almighty".

Again, while I have no knowledge of the accusations, themselves, it seems
that they are important enough that -- once raised -- they should be
resolved.

To me (in my personal opinion), *if* a person has been involved in either
"Kiddushie Katana" or in this "heter me'ah rabbanan" -- which leaves the
wife without a get... there is a serious problem.  In addition, the pain
of Agunot is so searing that it justifies (again in my opinion) airing the
problem so that all are aware.

To put it another way: should we start a thread on the problems that
Agunot face and what must be done to resolve them?  should we discuss the
fact that some Roshei Yeshiva *discourage* the use of the pre-nuptial
agreement even though this appears to be the most halachically acceptable
way of preventing aguna problems?  Should we discuss the alleged incidents
of a rav NOT telling a woman in advance the "problems" associated with her
future spouse and the subsequent misery when she is trapped in an
impossible marriage with him??

Or, should we just hide our heads and say that we must not cast aspersions
on anyone?

--Zvi


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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:53:21 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject:
Tefillo betzibur


>Wouldn't they have to be occupied b'tzorchei tzibbur during the time the
tzibbur is davening in order to use this ptur?
Avi Pechman<

It depends. If a person has already stayed up all night, it seems logical that 
halocho would not impose upon him to continue staying up for minyan, too.

Regards,
Rich Wolpoe


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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:52:47 -0500
From: mluchins@Zweig-Dimenna.com
Subject:
Rav Aharon Solveitchik a


     I made the original request and last I heard Rav Aharon is still in
the hospital (my contact is my father who left to Israel on Monday) perhaps
our Chicago chevra has more up to date information.  Tehillim can also be
said for Rav Yakov Weinberg (Rosh Yeshiva of Ner Yisroel) who had a
syst(sp?) removed from his back, and 2 feet of his Colon removed in
separate operations in the past 2 weeks - he is home, but people are still
saying tehillim Schmuel Yakov ben Ayalah Hinda.   I am sure no one will
mind that I am adding this tehillim request I got from a very close friend:

"Subject: Please Daven and say Tehillim




Sadly, our newborn son was diagnosed this week with a very rare (for
babies) malignant tumor. Once they know exactly what specific type it is,
he will begin intensive treatments to get rid of it. Supposedly, cancer in
infants usually is curable if it responds to the treatment.

Please daven with him in mind and say some Tehillim and even add him to any
Tehillim lists you may have access to.

His Name is Avrohom Yisroel ben Chaya Bruria.

The more help we can get, the more Zechusim he will have.
Hashem sends wake up calls in many sizes and shapes, and it is important
for Klal Yisroel to respond in order to avoid an even harder "Klop".

Thank you so much and may we only hear good news of Simchos for all of us
and our families.

Sincerely,

Dovid & Chaya Bruria Sachs"

     Moshe Luchins
P.S. If and when I know that it is no longer necessary to dave for any of
the 3 I will, B'N, let the list know.


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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:58:09 -0500
From: "Sholem Berger" <bergez01@med.nyu.edu>
Subject:
Statements in Gemora one disagrees with


I feel kinda left out, since I don't have any dispersions to cast or
accusations of kefirah to hurl.  I just have a question on the Daf --
yesterday's, that is, Yoma 29.

The Gemora says (according to Rashi) that it's harder to learn something
that one has forgotten than to learn anew.  But I just don't agree with
this -- in my experience it's just the opposite.  Ditto with the earlier
blanket statements (28b-29a) about thoughts of sin being harder (to bear?)
than the gufoy shel mayse, and the sun through the clouds being hotter than
the sun on a clear day.  What do we do with such statements if they don't
jive with our experience?  No matter how often you tell me that, no, it
_is_ harder to learn forgotten material than to learn anew, I'm not going
to agree, no matter how many metaphors you bring about pitch and the like. 
And what about "rokhmo tsoro khavivo balo"?  Is this a general statement
about all husbands and wives? kings and queens? Esther and Ahashuerus?
These sweeping evaluations of life phenomena are more difficult for me to
swallow than halachic judgments.  Maybe (stretching here) it has something
to do with the fact that we're talking about the Beys Hamikdesh, which has
been variously interpreted as a architectural rendering of the human body,
or of the structure of the universe?  I.e., do sweeping statements made in
the context of a discussion of Temple law have a validity they otherwise
would not?  I guess this just leads back to the question of where Agode
fits in, but I'd be grateful for any help on these particular matters.

Sholem Berger
bergez01@med.nyu.edu


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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 15:44:28 -0500
From: meir_shinnar@smtplink.mssm.edu
Subject:
Tfila b'tzibbur


In Rav Henkin's works, he states explicitly that tefilla is hovat hatzibbur, so
that  someone who has a legitimate reason, for not being able to go to shul at
the regular time  has no chiyuv to gather a minyan to daven  b'tzibbur.  The
question is then what are legitimate reasons.

With regard to kriat hatora, I remember reading that the Griz, (Rav
Soloveichik's uncle), held that kriat hatora is hovat gavra rather than hovat
hatzibbur, so that if he came late to shul and missed  just the beginning of
laning, he would seek another shul to hear all of kria.  I don't know how Rav
Soloveichik held himself.

Meir Shinnar


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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:18:15 -0500
From: "Frenkel, Garry J." <Garry.J.Frenkel@ssa.gov>
Subject:
Re: Modern Orthodoxy


 Harry Maryles wrote:
Subject: Re: Modern Orthodoxy

>I'm sorry, I don't accept that your experience at YU is what took you 
>away from obsevant Judaism. It is a disingenuous statement, meant on 
>your part to bash YU because of some negative experience you personally 
>may have had, which has nothing to do with your claim that Torah U'mada 
>blurs the distinctions between Torah and Mada. I further believe that 
>you chose to leave the path of Torah for the sake of your own personal 
>desire not to the have the yoke of Heaven upon you.  If you are so 
>intersted in the Kedushas HaTorah, then why did you not leave YU to go 
>to a yeshiva that does not have Mada in it's philosophy, like Lakewood? 
>No, you just decided to leave Judaism and blame YU (as a sort of revenge 
>I suspect).  That leaves you with absolutely no dignity. But, you can 
>repent and regain some of that dignity by asking Mechila from the 
>instition you accuse of "forcing" you into your present lifestyle.

I seem to have hit one of Harry's hot buttons, and while I realize that this
list is about issues not personalities, since the personality in question is
me, I feel the need to respond.  I would have responded to Harry directly
but perhaps others may have similarly understood my comments.

As I aplogized in a follow-up note, my original posting was a very
incomplete draft that I accidentally sent out.  Happily my 5 years in the YU
system (4 years in MTA and 1 year in YC) were from 66 - 71, and Boruch
Hashem, even without Harry's gentle exhortations to repent I managed to find
my way back to the path of Torah and the yoke of heaven.  Although it took
over a year for me to be able to drive past YU without having strong
feelings of anger and revulsion, as I have grown older I have come to
realize that the sixties were a difficult time for YU and that things have
greatly improved there over time.

Nevertheless, I still blame YU, the YU rabbinical products that were my
teachers, and the lukewarm approach to Yiddishkeit that was presented to me
and my classmates as the prime factor in my past disillusionment with
Yiddiskeit. It is my judgement that Torah U'mada has a very strong tendency
to sanctify the secular and diminish the sanctity of the holy, and this is
what I expeienced at YU.  If this leaves me with no dignity in anyone's eyes
that's their problem.

It was not my goal to bash YU or Torah U'mada per se.  As I said, in my
opinion the problem is not secular knowledge but secular culture.  I believe
that a healthier model of the synthesis of Torah and secular knowledge it
the one represented by the Twerski brothers, sons of the Milwaukee Rebbe
Z'L.  As Rabbis, Doctors, Lawyers or Accountants they were, and yibadel bein
chaim l'chaim are, contemporary thinkers and modern men whose primary focus
is their growth as Jews and who battle mightily against any compromise of
their values.

It is not only the proponents of Torah U'mada who have adopted some the
values of our host culture.  But the less one views those values as
negative, and the more enamored one is of that culture the more susceptible
they are to its negative influence. 

Gad Frenkel


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