Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 69

Mon, 26 Aug 2019

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 10:09:21 -0400
[Avodah] Woman and Tallis story verified (was: Showering

On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 10:00:32PM +0000, Joseph Kaplan via Avodah wrote:
> 2. R' Micha repeats the story told in the Frimer's' article about the
> Rav and the woman who wanted to wear a tallit....

So, I confirmed with the LOR the Frimers' cite.

1- The story did happen.

2- He didn't want the story retold, and tried to stop Rs Frimer from
using it.

Which explains why the story didn't get out until their article.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 Mussar is like oil put in water,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   eventually it will rise to the top.
Author: Widen Your Tent                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

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Message: 2
From: David Riceman
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 11:47:41 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Tartei d?Satrei


> I've always felt that going to more than one poseik (even in different
> areas of psak) raises the likelihood that one will be accepting
> positions which are based on a higher order tartei dsatrei (Internal
> inconsistencies that even the poseik may not be consciously aware of).

Of course the Sanhedrin ruled by majority, so following the Sanhedrin?s psak entails the same problem.

David Riceman

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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:03:45 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Tartei d'Satrei

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 11:47:41AM -0400, David Riceman via Avodah wrote:
> Of course the Sanhedrin ruled by majority, so following the Sanhedrin's
> psak entails the same problem.

The SA says in his haqdamah that he ruled according to the majority
of his triumverate -- the Rif, Rambam and Rosh. (Which stacks the deck
since the baalei Tosados make up the majority of rishonim, but their sole
voice is via the Rosh, and even then the Rosh can be outnunbered 2 to 1.)

And kayadua, there are numerous exceptions to that rule. And the mechaber
doesn't even feel a need to justify not following the majority.

I suggested that perhaps this is just it: the majority in one machloqes
forces a particular pesaq in what the SA felt was a related halakhah. To
avoid such cases of tarta desasrei.

But that's all fanciful. It would explain the data, but we have no indication
at all -- it would mean the SA saw a lot of non-obvious correlations. But
maybe one of you could find something I didn't.

However, that segues into a potential answer to your question:

Would the Sanhedrin have had two unrelated votes on halakhos where the
pesaqim are tightly correlated?

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   this was a great wonder. But it is much more
Author: Widen Your Tent      wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    "mensch"!     -Rav Yisrael Salanter

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Message: 4
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 20:05:50 +0000
Re: [Avodah] Tartei d?Satrei

> RJR:
>> I've always felt that going to more than one poseik (even in
>> different areas of psak) raises the likelihood that one will be
>> accepting positions which are based on a higher order tartei
>> dsatrei (Internal inconsistencies that even the poseik may not be
>> consciously aware of).
> Of course the Sanhedrin ruled by majority, so following the Sanhedrin?s psak entails the same problem.
> David Riceman
> _______________________________________________
> My case was where the ?lower level? poseik did not act as a first
> level wine by reprocessing the particular question from scratch. So
> the question to me is different from any individual following the
> Sanhedrin where is totally allowed and perhaps required to rely on
> them without question. In my case if the poseik Were to follow one in
> authority I would have no problem with it. It?s where he chooses to
> use multiple authorities in place of reprocessing that my question
> starts. It?s a similar question to one I?ve always had  about the
> articulating methodology of the s?a
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 17:38:13 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Ben Torah for Life

On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 08:51:57AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> My thoughts on Ben Torah for Life" by Rabbi Aaron Lopiansky
> R'Lopiansky's response is multifaceted. On the philosophical side he
> states that Yaakov must realize that while extended full time learning was
> the right thing to do and forms his core, "the vocation that hashgacha
> has allotted you" now is not less valuable if viewed correctly. He is
> an agent of HKB"H and must maintain an appropriate (for self and family)
> standard of living which reflects his ultimate goals.

Keneged kulam isn't kulam. Even if Pei'ah 1:1 means keneged the other
612, that would mean 50% of our job is learning. (But that's not mashmah
from the mishnah -- kulam would be the other mitzvos listed there.)

And we know why -- because talmud meivi liydei maaseh. It isn't that
learening has the greatest inherent valut; its valus is derived from
its making you do the other mitzvos. So, learning without the other 50%
isn't 50% either.

And then, I can't let this go without mentioning R' Shimon Shkop on
BALM vs BALC in the haqdamah to Shaarei Yosher.

1- Qedushah is commitment to vehalakhta bidrakhav. "Qedoshim tihyu ki
Qadosh Ani". Being qadosh is being consecrative to being meitiv others,
bedemus haBorei, kevayakhol.

Then he explains that rest and enjoyment can be qadosh, if one is
refreshing oneself as part of being better able to be meitiv others.

And then finally, "gam zu al kol mif'alav uma'asev shel ha'adam bam
beino levein haMaqom" -- mitzvos bein Adam laMaqom are altogether
the means of caring for the goose; the goldent eggs are leheitiv
im hazulas. (As per his opening words.)

That was taken from the first paragraph in the original print of
SY. See http://www.aishdas.org/asp/ShaareiYosher.pdf for the original
with translation, ch. 1 of my sefer.

2- Later, in par. 2 (pg 55), R Shimon describes how the measure of
a person's soul is the size of his "ani". A coarse person only thinks
of their body when they say "ani". (In my book, I call that "level 0
of human development; as it's mamash llike an animal."

One step up (level 1) is someone who identifies with body and soul.
Then there is the person who identifies with their husband or wife and
children, or other immediate family (2.0). Then more of their extended
family, more of their friends (2.1, 2.2....) until they identify their
"ani" as the Jewish People or the entirety of the beri'ah.

Notice how lowly he would describe the soul that learns and learns but
not to be better to other people, or to teach. How far that is from
usual understandings of R' Chaim Voloshiner's "Torah liShmah"!

> He must realize that the outside world is not black (it's all foolishness)
> or white (they're great). Our ethical/moral standards are key as Yaakov
> maintains his separation and sanctifies HKB "H's name. He needs to look
> for/ form a strong. Shul, Community, Rabbi, Chevra and family while he
> sets aside time for more practical, focused, inspirational and engaged
> learning. He must set aside time to set/correct course and experience
> the sweetness of every mitzvah.
> Yaakov must make tfila, Shabbat and Yom Tov different and meaningful. He
> must avoid spiritual pitfalls and use down time appropriately.
> My thoughts.
> 1) While Yaakov's problem statement (and problem) is very different from
> Jack's (my creation - his modern orthodox cousin whose problems stem
> from being reared to believe professional success is key), the advice
> is still generally on target for both of them
> 2) R'A Feldman's (Rosh Yeshiva-Ner Yisrael) approbation includes the
> following statements worth discussing: " It is a fact of our Yeshiva
> educational system that a good proportion of our students do not end
> up in Torah-related careers and therefore find themselves thrust, often
> unprepared, into an environment whose values and behaviors are radically
> different from their accustomed ones. Surprisingly, this problem has
> never been addressed by our Roshey Yeshiva."
> 3) Also worth discussing - does the response to Yaakov fully address his
> problem statement's root cause? If not, why? What other short and long
> term responses might be more effective for Yaakov or his children? How
> would they effect the rest of the community?
> 4) David Epstein in "Range" argues that "specializing" too early can be
> counterproductive and that generalists who find their path later in life
> tend to excel and be more creative, agile and able to make connections
> that specialists miss. (me-The connections part especially resonates
> with me). What are the implications for our educational systems (Limudei
> Kodesh and Chol across the orthodox spectrum?))

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
Author: Widen Your Tent      in fact, of our modesty.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF            -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 17:52:32 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Chazal accept medicinal treatments

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 09:58:42PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
>> Chazal didn't have double-blind testing or a field of statistics. Instead,
>> something that worked three times was considered effective 

> So 3 out of 10 (100....) is all good?

We asked this before without getting an answer.

They only talk about establishing a qemeia mumcheh or a rofei mumcheh or a
refu'ah. They don't talk about counter-evidence. And yet one doesn't need
to know that 3 out of hundreds of uses is more likely to be a fluke or
"coincidence" (if your theology allows for actual coincidences) than
proof the medicine worked.

I looked in the gemara already discussed, in the SA (OC 301:25), Tur,
and Rambam Hil' Shabbos 19:14.

Maybe someone else knows.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 Take time,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   be exact,
Author: Widen Your Tent      unclutter the mind.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF          - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm

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Message: 7
From: Michael Poppers
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 22:17:44 -0400
[Avodah] 15 Av

RAM added:
> If the above is correct, then it turns out that this joyful surprise
(that the Tisha B'Av death had ended) occurred right in the middle of the
Shloshim for Aharon Hakohen. <
...and perhaps the "Vayishma...vayishma" victory recorded in P'Chuqas,
immediately after Aharon's death on R'Ch' Av and prior to "vayis'u meiHor
haHar," occurred in that month of Av, such that, lacking a precise date, we
would associate it w/ the middle of Av?
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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 15:45:36 -0400
Re: [Avodah] 15 Av

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 11:11:50PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Rabbenu Bachye on Shmos 12:2 quotes Rabbenu Chananel, that for the 40 years
> in the Midbar, Kiddush Hachodesh must have been Al Pi Cheshbon, and not Al
> Pi R'iyah, because the moon (and sun) could not be seen for that entire
> time, because the Ananei Hakavod were blocking the view...

They hold that qiddush hachodesh was ALWAYS al pi cheshbon, that re'iyah
is part of court procedings, but was never intended to be how BD chose
the date.

To quote "Vekhasav Rabeinu Chananeil z"l: Qevi'us hachadashim eino ela
al pi hacheshbon..." A raayah is brought from Shemu'el I "hinei chodesh
machar". See there fore details.

What you bring about the cloud and the amud ha'eish making re'iyah
impossible is just his first ecample among many.

Also, R Chananel is quoted as saying "velo ra'u bekhulam shemesh bayom
velo yareiach balaylah." So, not being able to see the sliver of moon
for eidus for RC doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't tell when the
moon was too full to be the 9th anymore. Maybe they couldn't see if it
was exactrly round, but 9 be'Av is just a shade more than half.

As for an actual on-topic answer.... Still doing my research. The question
of "bein bizmanan bein shelo mizmanan" is bugging me.


Micha Berger                 The greatest discovery of all time is that
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   a person can change their future
Author: Widen Your Tent      by merely changing their attitude.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                 - Oprah Winfrey

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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 15:33:19 -0400
Re: [Avodah] 15 Av

On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 01:31:23AM +0100, allan.engel--- via Avodah wrote:
> The paradigm that allowed new derashos on pesukim (until 'sof mishna' -
> presumably the end of the era of Tannaim) explicitly allows for changes in
> halachic practice on the basis of new derashos.

And contrary to RAM's recollection -- one of them is Moavi velo Moavis.

Rus Rabba (parasha 2:9[4], 7:7[1], 7:10[5]) attributed to Ploni Almoni
in Meg' Rus a lack of belief in the brand-new derashah. And besides, what
will happen to my descendents if a later Sanhedrin pasqens differently?

I think the medrash also uses the idea to explain that Rus did indeed
convert twice -- once before the derashah, and once after.


Micha Berger                 "Someday I will do it." - is self-deceptive. 
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   "I want to do it." - is weak. 
Author: Widen Your Tent      "I am doing it." - that is the right way.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                 - Reb Menachem Mendel of Kotzk

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Message: 10
From: David Riceman
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 12:55:05 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Tartei d'Satrei


> I've always felt that going to more than one poseik (even in different
> areas of psak) raises the likelihood that one will be accepting
> positions which are based on a higher order tartei dsatrei (Internal
> inconsistencies that even the poseik may not be consciously aware of).


Of course the Sanhedrin ruled by majority, so following the Sanhedrin?s psak entails the same problem.


> Would the Sanhedrin have had two unrelated votes on halakhos where the
> pesaqim are tightly correlated?

I looked for this over Shabbos.  I didn?t find anything conclusive, but I
did find some hints.  Conceptually, though, that would imply that the
Sanhedrin can?t function as a court of appeal for normal disputes, which
seems unrealistic.

See. H. Sanhedrin 10:5.


 I?m guessing here that RJR?s inconsistencies are correlated the the Rambam?s ta?amim.  But see Shach HM 25 SK 19:2


who suggests that there is a typo in the Rambam.

And see Pischei Tshuva SK 7 there who cites the Noda B?Yhuda second edition
HM 3 (which I didn?t?t look up inside) confirming a psak BD based on two
contradictory ta?amim (with the third judge advocating no monetary award).

Nobody I noticed suggested that such a peak would bind the future psakim of the judges or the court.

And see Hazon Ish al HaRambam Hashlamos H. Mamrim 1:4 that Hazal after the Hurban still had the status of Sanhedrin.


And there is an issue d?orayysa for a judge to refuse to rule after having decided a case, so I don?t see how RMB?s elegant suggestion would be viable.

David Riceman
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