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Volume 35: Number 10

Thu, 19 Jan 2017

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 08:00:27 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Praying for Miracles (from Areivim)


On 18/01/17 01:51, Saul Mashbaum via Avodah wrote:
>  one cannot pray that
> the outcome of an event which already took place should be favorable.

Of course one can.  The only thing one can't pray for is that the past 
event should *not have happened*.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all



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Message: 2
From: saul newman
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 07:50:12 -0800
Subject:
[Avodah] emuna and science


a commentor online [ in re a controversial work on believing in alternative
healing rather than scientifically based western medicine]  made the
following claim---

A purely scientifically minded person will not accept something inherently
untestable as fact. At most he'll say it's a possibility. To be religious
requires turning a blind eye to scientific method.

---- is it true that somehow western trained O jews with belief in science
and scientific method will neccesarily be deficient in emuna ?
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Message: 3
From: Joshua Meisner
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 15:31:42 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Micah and Yeshayahu


On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> An example where it is explicit in the pesukim. Tanakh states that
> Yeshayahu prophesized from
> Uziah to Chizkitahu while Michah prophesized from Yotam (som of Uziah) to
> Chizkiyahu.
> So they overlapped and Micah was the younger of the two. So Yoel bin Nun
> assumes that in
> fact Micah was a student of Yeshayahu.
>

As does the Rambam in his hakdama to Mishneh Torah.
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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 17:02:02 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] emuna and science


On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 07:50:12AM -0800, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: A purely scientifically minded person will not accept something inherently
: untestable as fact. At most he'll say it's a possibility. To be religious
: requires turning a blind eye to scientific method.

This is meaningless. Science only handles empirical reality. It has no way
to discuss right vs wrong, meaning, or religion. So no ma'amin could be
"apurely scientifically minded person" on those grounds -- but neither
can any moral person.

But it doesn't require turning a blind eye, it requires having an
intellectual toolset of which science is only one of the tools. Then
science says something is possible, and other modes of reasoning can
tell you it is indeed true.

For that matter, science can say something is impossible, another mode
of reasoning says it is indeed true, and that forces you to reinvestigate
where was the flaw in one's thinking -- on the science side, or elsewhere.

And that's not jetisonning scientific thought altogether.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You will never "find" time for anything.
mi...@aishdas.org        If you want time, you must make it.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Charles Buxton
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 18:14:59 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Free Will


On Thu, Jan 05, 2017 at 01:12:57PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: Consider the following assertion: HKB"H sets the world in motion based
: on specific "rules of nature." He allows those rules of nature to
: interact with our free will choices. In certain situations he chooses
: to intervene in a manner that cannot be proven or predicted in order to
: produce a specific result. Each of us is ultimately judged on our free
: choice efforts with some combination of results in this world and/or
: the next. Thus, suffering or success in this world may be "random"
: or HKB"H's direct influence.

: What % of Rishonim would find this description accurate? Achronim? Laity
: then and now? If this has changed over time, WHY?

We have numerous "universal hashgachah peratis" threads in the archive.
Search it for "universal HP".

RGStudent wrote on 29-Sep-2003:
> The Sifsei Chaim, Pirkei Emunah ve-Hashgachah vol. 1 devotes ma'amar
> 4 to the issue of whether there is hashgachah peratis on non-humans.
> He brings down three views:
> 1. The Ramban's (pp. 82-83): Hashem's individual providence is only
>    on those who recognize and cling to Him.
> 2. The Ramak's (pp. 83-87): Individual providence applies to animals
>    only when it relates to people. [This seems to be the view of R'
>    Aryeh Kaplan in Handbook of Jewish Thought vol. 2 19:7-8 pp. 288-289.]
> 3. The Gra's (p. 87ff.): Individual providence applies to everything
>    created. He quotes R' Yonasan Eybeshutz and Radal who agree.

Now what the Sifsei Chaim attributes to the Gra, RMMS attributes to the
Besht. See http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/protis.pdf or if you
don't want to invest the effort and trust my summry
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol09/v09n042.shtml#12

Others attributed it to the Ramchal.

Why did things shift?

I think there are a few factors:

Lurianic Qabbalah, in some way I don't know. After all, RMMS makes
a point of explaining that belief that Hashem knows everything, even
belief in panentheism, doesn't necessitate universal HP. So it's
some teaching of the Ari's that I don't know or impacts the question
in a manner I can't figure out.

But I think more, it's the same forces that shifted the philosophical
world with Kant. To the Rambam or Or haChaim, the discussion of HP is
an ontological one. Their hashkafah projects focused on finding what
is objectively out there. To more modern baalei machashavah, the focus
is on explaining our experiences. The rishonim dealt with HP vs teva
vs miqreh (and possibly other categories, see Kuzari 5:20). After the
shift, HP has more to do with bitachon and human experience. One might
even argue that there wasn't a shift in substance as much a shift in
what the word "hashgachah refers to".

(And then personally I think that Chaos Theory requires that if anyone
is getting HP then everything has to be subject to it. Because over the
course of history, every flutter of a butterfly's wing will eventually
impact some moment in a life of someone who is supposed to getting HP.
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/hp-chaos-and-qm>)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You cannot propel yourself forward
mi...@aishdas.org        by patting yourself on the back.
http://www.aishdas.org                   -Anonymous
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 6
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 10:24:51 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] Micah and Yeshayahu


just to make clearer
pasuk Yeshayahu 2:3 and Micha 4:2 are almost identical  (including ki
me-tzion tezeh torah).
We have a rule that every prophet uses his own language so why would 2
prophets have identical language?
The answer of R. Yoel bin-Nun is that Micah was a student of Yeshayahu (we
know from Tanach that he started prophesizing later) and so he was quoting
his teacher.  R. Benny Lau continued that the next pesukim are different
because Micah disagreed with Yeshayahu's vision of the future. While
Yeshayahu stressed individual responsibility Micah stressed a just
government.

BTW for most neviim Tanach gives the dates (in terms of kings) when they
taught. Hence, when chazal state that 4 neviim prophesized at the same time
they are just stressing was is already in Tanach. Some of the exceptions
where we have no dates include Yonah,Yoel and Ovadiah. In fact there are
major debates in the academic world as to when Yoel lived.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Message: 7
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 05:21:11 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] OU Shabbos Foodservice Guidelines


Please see the article that is on page 11 of the most recent Daf 
HaKashrus that I have posted at


https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/kashrus/Daf25-3e.pdf

I was not aware of all of the halachic complexities involved in 
making sure that food served on Shabbos is kosher,  and hence I think 
that this article is worth reading.

Are there implications based on this article for each of us to 
investigate before eating at a simcha on Shabbos?  If yes,  what are they?

YL

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Message: 8
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 10:45:49 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] Understanding Shnayim Mikra V'echad Targum


From

http://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5029


There is a well-known Gemara in Brachos[1]<http://ohr.edu/5029#_edn1> that
states: "A person should always complete his [study of the] parsha with the
congregation[2]<http://ohr.edu/5029#_edn2> - [by
studying] shnayim mikra v'echad targum. Anyone who does this will have long
days and years." Learning the text of the weekly parsha twice with the
targum (keep reading for explanation) is a segula for long life[3]<http://ohr.edu/5029#_edn3>.


What many do not know is that this statement of Chazal is actually codified
in halacha[4]<http://ohr.edu/5029#_edn4>!


See the above URL for more.  YL


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Message: 9
From: saul newman
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 08:38:35 -0800
Subject:
[Avodah] pikuach nefesh?


[I am passing this through as a way to start a conversation about
hilkhos asqanus. -micha]

http://forward.com/schmooze/3604
53/ivanka-trump-and-jared-kushner-get-rabbinic-pass-to-ride-in-car-on-inaug
ura

maybe it wasn't so good  to have  O  in the white house.... next hetter ,
kashrus?



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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 12:06:25 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] pikuach nefesh?


On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 08:38:35AM -0800, saul newman wrote:
: maybe it wasn't so good  to have  O  in the white house.... next hetter ,
: kashrus?

Riding in a car with a non-Jewish chaufeur would be a shevus. So a
kashrus parallel might be a state function that required eating poultry
with milk. Eg, some autocrat made a point of obtaining kosher food,
but then the kitchen didn't know enough to keep the chicken and cheese
separate once bought. Do you offend the autocrat, or eat it?

Actually, this case is more about choosing to be in a position where
safety requires violating derabbnans. Should they instead choose to be
less involved in her father's presidency if it means lowering the risk
and number of piquach nefesh situations.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When you come to a place of darkness,
mi...@aishdas.org        you don't chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org   You light a candle.
Fax: (270) 514-1507        - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l



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Message: 11
From: saul newman
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 09:19:41 -0800
Subject:
[Avodah] pikuach nefesh?


http://forward.com/schmooze/360453/ivanka-trump-and-jared-
kushner-get-rabbinic-pass-to-ride-in-car-on-inaugura/?
attribution=home-hero-item-text-1

not so clear guidelines of violating halacha in such situations.  this is a
ceremonial episode, not a governing situation...
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Message: 12
From: Lisa Liel
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 21:44:01 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] emuna and science


On 1/19/2017 12:02 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> This is meaningless. Science only handles empirical reality.

Not really.  Science, at least as practiced, includes extrapolating 
beyond any empirical reality based on a "sense" that as things are now, 
so they must always have been.

> It has no way
> to discuss right vs wrong, meaning, or religion. So no ma'amin could be
> "apurely scientifically minded person" on those grounds -- but neither
> can any moral person.

I disagree.  We have impirical evidence for our positions (call them 
beliefs or otherwise).  It may not be rigorous proof, but it is 
evidence, and it is impirical.  There are those who will argue that 
saying this is dangerous, because it opens the door to impirical 
evidence *against* our position, which also exists.  That's a matter of 
personal preference, I suppose.

Lisa


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus




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Message: 13
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 15:43:48 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] emuna and science


On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 09:44:01PM +0200, Lisa Liel wrote:
:> This is meaningless. Science only handles empirical reality.

: Not really.  Science, at least as practiced, includes extrapolating
: beyond any empirical reality based on a "sense" that as things are
: now, so they must always have been.

Science extrapolates from observed events to non-observed *empirical*
claims.

Science says nothing about how we ought to behave. Nor does it talk about
metaphysics -- although there could be implications. (Such as Aristo's
physics giving a role to intellects which is also the cornerstone of
his metaphysics.) It only addresses what physically is.

:> It has no way
:> to discuss right vs wrong, meaning, or religion. So no ma'amin could be
:> "apurely scientifically minded person" on those grounds -- but neither
:> can any moral person.

: I disagree.  We have impirical evidence for our positions (call them
: beliefs or otherwise).  It may not be rigorous proof, but it is
: evidence, and it is impirical...

There is empirical evidence that Jerws should keep Shabbos and non-Jews
shouldn't? Or why we don't eat basar bechalav? Or...

Perhaps you are thnking about beliefs about origins or historical
events. But overall, that's a minor aspect of Yahadus. The main topic
is halakhah, how to behave, what we're aiming for in life, our role in
the world.

Such questions about what *ought* to be rather than what *is* is outside
the purview of scientific method. (Science can then be used to clarify
which possibilities are closer to that ought; but that's why posqim need
to work with scientists.)

As I said "neither can any moral person" be "purely scientifically minded"
in the sense of the OP. Beause you can't base morality on science. Any
moral person is either using other methods of verifying idea than the
scientific one, or is being moral irrationally. (And thank G-d people
don't always have to make sense.)

And even in the case of miracles, our empirical evidence is not only
non-rigorous -- it is not the scientific method. So our hypothetical
"purely scientifically minded" person would reject it. But since he
already had to give up that purity to accept halakhah.... As I said,
the question doesn't add up. You can't have someone in the situation
being described.

I agree that for scientific method to work, one has to be able
to inductively build a rule out of a set of examples, and then test that
hypothesis. Which means assuming uniformism, "a 'sense' that as things are
now, so they must always have been."

In truth, as Karl Popper showed
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper#Falsification.2Fproble
m_of_induction>,
the only thing the scientific method can prove for sure are which
hypotheses can NOT be true. Which ones experiment ruled out. As for
ascertaining what IS true, it's based on induction. Well, it may just
be we haven't yet hit the "black swan". Science can reduce the (Bayesian)
chance that an exception exists by continually failing to find it.

(R' Asher Weiss's argument against wearng techeiles is based on his
feeling that scientific method's dependence on failing to disprove a
theory means there are always other valid theories. No theory therefore
is ever proven, certainly not to the level demanded by halakhah. Quite
far from our "purely scientifically minded" individual.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Education is not the filling of a bucket,
mi...@aishdas.org        but the lighting of a fire.
http://www.aishdas.org                - W.B. Yeats
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 14
From: Zev Sero
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 13:31:15 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] pikuach nefesh?


On 19/01/17 12:06, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 08:38:35AM -0800, saul newman wrote:
> : maybe it wasn't so good  to have  O  in the white house.... next hetter ,
> : kashrus?
>
> Riding in a car with a non-Jewish chaufeur would be a shevus.

It's not even 100% clear that it would be a shevus, especially if 
they're not in a car of their own.  The secret service chauffeur will be 
working regardless of whether they're in the car or not. Even if they 
are on their own, that car would probably be driving someone else if 
they were not there.

> So a
> kashrus parallel might be a state function that required eating poultry
> with milk. Eg, some autocrat made a point of obtaining kosher food,
> but then the kitchen didn't know enough to keep the chicken and cheese
> separate once bought. Do you offend the autocrat, or eat it?

With a true autocrat, we have the answer to that.  It's clear halacha 
that askanus needs can justify a heter to drink stam yeinam, to follow 
chukos akum in haircut and clothes, and even to wear shaatnez.

The situation here is not so clear because it's not as if Trump will 
disown them if they politely say they have to leave the inauguration 
early.  On the contrary, all we know about him says that he'd be 
gracious about it.  So the question is what do they hope to achieve by 
staying late that justifies putting themselves in a situation where 
pikuach nefesh will require some possible issurim derabanan, or at least 
some avak issur.

Another factor to bear in mind, though, is that "mimtzo cheftzecha" 
doesn't apply to any issue of askonus, because it's not "cheftzecha". 
This, again, is black letter halacha.



> Actually, this case is more about choosing to be in a position where
> safety requires violating derabbnans. Should they instead choose to be
> less involved in her father's presidency if it means lowering the risk
> and number of piquach nefesh situations.

Lechol hade'os one is allowed on Tuesday to embark on a sea voyage that 
is likely to require pikuach nefesh on Shabbos.   Choosing to be in 
their position was a decision the Kushners made months ago.  The only 
question here is whether, given that they are in their position, may 
they choose late tomorrow afternoon not to go home early enough to avoid 
the issue?


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all


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