Avodah Mailing List

Volume 44: Number 1

Sun, 04 Jan 2026

• 1. Re: Normal People Don't Care About Those Things (Toby Katz)
• 2. Re: Normal People Don't Care About Those Things (Micha Berger)
• 3. AI appliances and shabbat (Eli Turkel)
• 4. priotitizing mitzvot (Joel Rich)
• 5. stripes (Joel Rich)
• 6. Re: stripes (allan.en...@gmail.com)
• 7. Re: stripes (Micha Berger)

In?Avodah Digest, Vol 43, Issue 72?dated 12/2/2025?
?From: "Jay F. Shachter" <j...@m5.chicago.il.us>?Subject: [Avodah]
Normal People Don't Care About Those Things?>>Normal people don't
care about beliefs.? Normal people care aboutobservable behavior.? Reality
is that which can be seen and felt.?..... The part of Judaism thatcares
about abstract beliefs that do not manifest themselves inobservable
behavior is entirely post-Biblical.<<?
??>>>>?Dovid Hamelech wrote? ?>>Amar naval belibo, ein Elokim a degenerate says in his heart, there is no G-d<< (Tehillim 14:1).
?Sefer Tehillim is not post-Biblical.?The idea that the Torah does not care about beliefs is a 19th century Reform canard.
--Toby--Toby Katzt6...@aol.com?=============?______________________________?
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On Mon, Dec 29, 2025 at 06:09:20AM +0000, Toby Katz via Avodah wrote:
> In?Avodah Digest, Vol 43, Issue 72?dated 12/2/2025?
>?From: "Jay F. Shachter" <j...@m5.chicago.il.us>
>> Normal people don't care about beliefs.? Normal people care
>> about observable behavior.? Reality is that which can be seen and
>> felt.?.....

Lemaaseh I think this is true.

And whether or not you agree with the his example R Dr David Berger
lamented this. It's the reason for the second half of his (in?)famous
book's title, "... and the Scandal of Orthodox Indifference".

The question of whether O is indifferent or believe that he is mistaken
in the extent of the issue and/or its halachic status aside. I don't
really want to argue L Messianism, and with my Mod Hat on, I can
tell you in advance we won't.

I do think it is scandalous that we include Jews by what they do,
and not by what they believe.

All those O affiliated non-observant Jews who went to C only did
so because O lost its openness in this way. Our tent should be
big enough to include "the Judaism I don't observe is O" people,
as well as those beyond.

Our community is now strong enough that we don't have to worry
about them watering down the culture of observance for those
who do observe.

The Chabad House model should be studied and emulated by the rest
of us.


Then the conversation shifts from the sociological behavior of
O to what it ought to be al pi haTorah:
> The part of Judaism thatcares about abstract beliefs
> that do not manifest themselves inobservable behavior is entirely
> post-Biblical.

> Dovid Hamelech wrote
>    Amar naval belibo, ein Elokim
>    a degenerate says in his heart, there is no G-d
>                   (Tehillim 14:1).

> Sefer Tehillim is not post-Biblical...

However, RJFS writes only about "abstract beliefs that do not manifest
themselves inobservable behavior". Which I would take to mean his list
of biblical iqarei emnuah exists -- they are those beliefs necessary to
logically justify observance.

Which would include, for example, monotheism, but perhaps not believing
in the coming of mashiach. Similarly some form of belief in Torah min
haShamayim. (I would argue Torah miSinai too, but I have been in on-line
debates on that point.)

Which would explain how R Hillel both didn't believe in the latter and
yet was considered a kosher dayan when he was Av Beis Din. Over the
court that the She'iltos says established our current calendar, no less.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Every child comes with the message
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   that God is not yet discouraged with
Author: Widen Your Tent      humanity.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                 - Rabindranath Tagore

<<Presence sensing refers to home devices that monitor human activity
around a home, but in a nonintrusive way. I've seen presence-sensing
technology before on smart thermostats,
<https://www.cnet.com/home/energy-and-utilities/best-smart-thermostats/#link={%22role%22:%22standard%22,%22href%22:%22https://www.cnet.com/home/energy-and-utilities/best-smart-thermostats/%22,%22target%22:%22%22,%22absolute%22:%22%22,%22linkText%22:%22smart%20thermostats%22}>
such
as the Nest Learning Thermostat,
<https://www.cnet.com/home/energy-and-utilities/google-nest-learning-thermostat-4th-gen-review/#link={%22role%22:%22standard%22,%22href%22:%22https://www.cnet.com/home/energy-and-utilities/google-nest-learning-thermostat-4th-gen-review/%22,%22target%22:%22%22,%22absolute%22:%22%22,%22linkText%22:%22Nest%20Learning%20Thermostat,%22}>
since
it's handy for a thermostat to learn when people are active in the house
and adjust temperatures accordingly. Yet these are typically more
traditional motion sensors
<https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/9330256?p=sensorglossary&;hl=en&visit_id=636942523055167873-3933884192&rd=1#topic=7029677#link=%7B%22role%22:%22standard%22,%22href%22:%22https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/9330256?p=sensorglossary&;hl=en&visit_id=636942523055167873-3933884192&rd=1#topic=7029677%22,%22target%22:%22%22,%22absolute%22:%22%22,%22linkText%22:%22typically%20more%20traditional%20motion%20sensors%22%7D>
 -- sensing direct motion and people near or far away.

At CES, I expect to see a wave of new smart devices that step back from
direct sensors and instead use tiny disruptions in Wi-Fi and similar
frequencies to gauge activity around the home. They can sense human
presence and movement patterns, but that's about it. The approach adds a
bit more privacy while allowing lights, security systems and more to
respond to human movement.

I've already seen this kind of presence sensing in the newest Philips Hue
smart bulbs
<https://www.cnet.com/tech/philips-hues-latest-update-makes-your-lights-and-doorbells-way-smarter/#link=%7B%22role%22:%22standard%22,%22href%22:%22https://www.cnet.com/tech/philips-hues-latest-update-makes-your-lights-and-doorbells-way-smarter/%22,%22target%22:%22%22,%22absolute%22:%22%22,%22linkText%22:%22in%20the%20newest%20Philips%20Hue%20smart%20bulbs%22%7D>,
as well as less intrusive monitoring for older people
<https://www.cnet.com/home/security/new-wi-fi-technology-keeps-an-eye-on-seniors-while-preserving-their-privacy/#link=%7B%22role%22:%22standard%22,%22href%22:%22https://www.cnet.com/home/security/new-wi-fi-technology-keeps-an-eye-on-seniors-while-preserving-their-privacy/%22,%22target%22:%22%22,%22absolute%22:%22%22,%22linkText%22:%22less%20intrusive%20monitoring%20for%20older%20people%22%7D>.
From what I've heard, it's also coming to security systems and more home
tech at CES. It's a technology that combines low-cost implementation,
privacy benefits and user-friendliness, which means this type of sensing is
very easy to adopt for a variety of use cases.>>


what about shabbat?

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Notes to a magid shiur -Thoughts?
I certainly agree with you that the advice that it?s time to be selfish is
pretty poor advice, especially in times where there seems to be no lack of
individual selfishness, even within our community. In that context, it?s
probably worth thinking about the message to Jews in the United States
concerning the balance between being the best eved hashem they can be and
yishuv eretz yisrael. My observation is that this may be interpreted as a
ptur from seriously considering aliyah rather than as an invitation to
understand how the two might integrate (and actually result in a higher
level of avdut)
KT
Joel Rich
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f the reason the stripes on a tallit is to be a memory/allusion to
tcheilet, then why would one who
If the reason the stripes on a tallit is to be a memory/allusion to
tcheilet, then why would one who was wearing tcheilet have a tallit with
stripes? (perhaps it became normative practice and is now independent of
the original reason?)

If the reason is because that?s how Romans distinguished rank, why was it
ever adopted in the first place, isn?t it at some level darkei haemori
(unless you say that there?s a practical reason to distinguish us by rank).
Thoughts?was wearing tcheilet have a tallit with stripes? (perhaps it
became normative practice and is now independent of the original reason?)

If the reason is because that?s how Romans distinguished rank, why was it
ever adopted in the first place, isn?t it at some level darkei haemori
(unless you say that there?s a practical reason to distinguish us by rank).
Thoughts?

KT
Joel Rich
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A more elemental question, what is a tallis?

On Wed, 31 Dec 2025 at 18:57, Joel Rich via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
wrote:

> f the reason the stripes on a tallit is to be a memory/allusion to
> tcheilet, then why would one who
> If the reason the stripes on a tallit is to be a memory/allusion to
> tcheilet, then why would one who was wearing tcheilet have a tallit with
> stripes?
>
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On Wed, Dec 31, 2025 at 06:15:20AM +0200, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> [I]f the reason the stripes on a tallit is to be a memory/allusion to
> tcheilet...

That's a big "if", and relates to RAE's question:

On Wed, Dec 31, 2025 at 08:48:24PM +0000, allan.engel--- via Avodah wrote:
> A more elemental question, what is a tallis?

RSMandel zt"l (and recal, he had a PhD in linguistics, specializing in
Semitic Languages) wrote that "tallis" is a lone word, from the Greek
"stollus". This is also the origin of the English noun "stole" (as in
"mink stole" or the stole given to those who graduate with honors or
higher degrees).

During Makhus Yavan, the stole was in style, and therefore men
wore tzitzis daily. When the Romans took over, styles started
changing. (Although the Eastern half of the empire, including Israel
was run in Greek, think "future Byzantines".) We held out with the
tallis because the Jews (including the tannim) didn't want to stop
wearing tzitzis all the time just because wearing a rectangular
garment went out of style.

Which brings us back to RJS's question:
> If the reason is because that's how Romans distinguished rank, why was it
> ever adopted in the first place, isn't it at some level darkei haemori
> (unless you say that there's a practical reason to distinguish us by rank).

The historical reason for stripes is simply that it was fashionable
in Hellinistic society. It's a relatively easy way to have something
more than a single color boring garment. After all, all you have to do
is thread groups of batei nirin on your loom a different color, and
then weave as usual. Any fancier pattern would require special manual
weaving, tapestry, printing or painting -- all of which add manufacture
time and thus were only for the wealthy.

And thus striped clothes are common in numerous cultures.

(* Using the Aramaic because I assume I'm not the only one who knows
less weaving jargon than hilkhos Shabbos. But in case you're curious,
Anthropic Claude says "batei nirin" are "heddle-eyes" or "heddle-loops".)

So your question is the same one as "why wear a tie?"

Now...

As often happens to create minhagim, we gave this prosaic idea a post-facto
meaning, by saying blue stripes in memory of tekheiles, or black in mourning
for it.

But that's not the original cause.

> If the reason the stripes on a tallit is to be a memory/allusion to
> tcheilet, then why would one who was wearing tcheilet have a tallit with
> stripes?

For me that's easy -- a wear murex dyed tekheiles out of a "safeiq
deOraisa". My father is a talmid of RHSchachter from Tues Night
shiurim (which started when RYBS couldn't do the weekly shiur in Moriah
anymmore). So he started wearing because he is convinced. Me, I am not
as bound to a rebbe who discussed the matter, so I did my own research
and have doubts. So I mourn being doubtful.

Someone who feels it's definitely tekheiles could mourn the fact that
most observant men aren't convinced and aren't (yet) wearing it.

I could also see wearing them because al tifrosh min hatzibbur. (Which
would change what you should wear if you are a regular in a minyan of
Sepharadim wearing white stripes, there the difference is in weave and
thus texture, not color.)

But I think the simplest reason is the original historical one. The
Greeks did it to make their garments prettier, and so zeh Keili ve'anveihu
could motivate a striped garment.

> (unless you say that there's a practical reason to distinguish us by rank).

To end with a humorous story and personal notes...

When I started my current job (back in 2008), a co worker noticed that I
wore blue strings, but Moshe (who came to work in a black suit, white shirt,
and took off his hat when he got in) didn't.

This became a conversation.

One co worker who we nicknamed "Google" asked me a few days later whether
my strings were murex or cuttlefish dyed. I have no idea why he cared enough
to search the topic, but impressive for someone Greek Orthodox, no?

Anyway, the first co worker's original theory is that tzitzis work like
martial arts belts. As a rabbi, I had earned the right to wear blue
stripes.

Admittedly, that's stripes in my tzitzis, not my begged. But close enough
for an excuse to hopefully give someone a smile.

--


money on a deOraisa lekhol hadei'os. (The Rif-Rambam mesorah says that
"beged" here means linen or wool, specifically.) And so that it doesn't
show through lighter color shirts -- white stripes.

Whereas my tallis gadol has dark navy stripes. I call it "the color that
has me sometimes wearing blue and black mismatched socks." Satisfied al
tifrosh min hatzibbur even when I lived in Passaic. Only guys with Belzer
heritage noticed, since the same color (ah bloyer tallis) is minhag Belz.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 For a mitzvah is a lamp,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   And the Torah, its light.
Author: Widen Your Tent                      - based on Mishlei 6:2
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    a spirit of purity.      - Rav Yisrael Salanter


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