Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 24

Fri, 24 Mar 2023

• 1. Re: Why remove drops from Cup; Ought the cup be topped up? (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Re: Bankruptcy/Shemitah (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Why remove drops from Cup; Ought the cup be topped up? (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: "Chazal" being of more than one mind (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Why remove drops from Cup; Ought the cup be topped up? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Why remove drops from Cup; Ought the cup be topped up? (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Why remove drops from Cup; Ought the cup be topped up? (Ari Zivotofsky)
• 8. Re: Why remove drops from Cup; Ought the cup be topped up? (Zev Sero)
• 9. spilt wine ten plagues (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 10. Re: spilt wine ten plagues (Zev Sero)

.
R' Meir G. Rabi asked:
> Is the Koss filled before being raised for its Berachah?

Rabbi Shimon Eider, on page 271, writes: "The minhag is to add wine to the
cup to replace the wine that was spilled out. Some fill it before 'Rabban
Gamliel'. Others fill it before the brocho 'Asher Gaalanu'." His sources
are the Hagada Kol Dodi (Rav Dovid Feinstein), the siddur Beis Yaakov, and
Kaf Hachayim note 165.

But it seems to me that refilling the kos defeats the purpose of removing
those drops. We remove those drops specifically to demonstrate that the
geulah is, to some extent, incomplete. If so, it would seem to me that this
particular kos should be an exception to the general rule that a kos shel
bracha should be full.

It seems that Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach felt similarly. In Chapter 9 of
the Halichos Shlomo on Moadim, in the Orchos Halacha section, note 241, it
says, "If much was missing (nechsar harbeh) from the kos, his (RSZA)
practice was to refill it before the bracha of Asher Gaalanu." Apparently,
if only a small amount was missing, RSZA felt that it did not need to be
refilled. I try to follow this, by removing drops with my finger, so that
there is less wine in the cup than before, but it still *appears* to be a
full cup.

Akiva Miller
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On 22/3/23 13:55, Joseph Kaplan via Avodah wrote:
> I wonder what Rav Schwab told borrowers, who had no pruzbul with
> their lenders, and whose debts were wiped out in shmittah. Did he
> tell them to pay the debt anyway if they had the money? Note: This is
> not a rhetorical question.I don?t know the answer, I can imagine
> different possibilities, so I?d really like to know what he told
> them.
Actually he likely did.  It is proper to offer to pay such a debt, and 
to repeat the offer when the creditor says, as he is required to, that 
it was discharged by shemitah.  Sheviis 10:9


-- 
Zev Sero            ?Were we directed from Washington when to sow
z...@sero.name       and when to reap, we should soon want bread.?
                    ?Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821.

On 23/3/23 09:52, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Rabbi Shimon Eider, on page 271, writes: "The minhag is to add wine to 
> the cup to replace the wine that was spilled out. Some fill it before 
> 'Rabban Gamliel'. Others fill it before the brocho 'Asher Gaalanu'." His 
> sources are the Hagada Kol Dodi (Rav Dovid Feinstein), the siddur Beis 
> Yaakov, and Kaf Hachayim note 165.

And many refill it immediately, before continuing with Rabbi Yose Hagelili.

-- 
Zev Sero            ?Were we directed from Washington when to sow
z...@sero.name       and when to reap, we should soon want bread.?
                    ?Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821.

On Wed, Mar 22, 2023 at 06:38:14AM +0200, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> Comment to a magid shiur:
> I've often said what you said at the beginning about "Chazal" being
> of more than one mind on an issue (especially hashkafically), but that
> generally seems to be the absolutely the last answer anybody wants to
> give. Have you seen any sources discussing this in any detail?

REED in particular had the position that there never were major
machloqesin in hashkafah.

To the extent that leshitaso, the Besh"t and the Gra agreed about what
tzimtzum is. And that their machloqes boiled down to how we should relate
to the idea and thus what to teach. This position was repeated to RMMS,
either not besheim omero or the LR didn't realize the beqi'us of the
mashgiach in Gateshead in such matters. And the LR responded by poo-pooing
the suggestion and writing this clear description of the various shitos
about tzimtzum:
https://chabadlibrary.org/books/admur/ig/1/11.htm

(Which I think slightly distorts the Gra's position by casting it in
Chabad's terms, like Ein Sof vs Or Ein Sof, instead of his own terms
of Borei and Retzon haBorei, and the connotations he gives each. It is
closer to Rationalist to say that to make a world of Teva and Bechira
Chofshi, Hashem withdrew His Will, than to talk about metaphoric Light.)

I am also reminded of the Leshem's principle that he metaphysics in
the Moreh and early chapters of Yesodei haTorah is describing the same
reality that Qabbalah does, and they only differ in metaphor. So, one
speaks about an Or entering olamos, each one more coarse than the one
before, until you get to this physical one. The oher speaks of Yedi'ah
-- Hashem's, down the various levels of Mal'akhim, each thinking the
one below it into existence, until you get to the celestial spheres and
earth. To the Leshem, those are just different models, not conflicting
ideas about the reality.

My own pet peeve is when a speaker says "Chazal", "the posqim hold",
"the rishonim say", "it is written in the heiliger sefarim", "the
baalei mussar say". Often it hides a machloqes, or presents common
"knowledge" that doesn't have a primary source, etc...

Chodesh Tov!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The thought of happiness that comes from outside
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   the person, brings him sadness. But realizing
Author: Widen Your Tent      the value of one's will and the freedom brought
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    by uplifting its, brings great joy. - R' Kook

On Thu, Mar 23, 2023 at 09:52:36AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> .
> R' Meir G. Rabi asked:
> > Is the Koss filled before being raised for its Berachah?

> Rabbi Shimon Eider, on page 271, writes: "The minhag is to add wine to the
> cup to replace the wine that was spilled out..."

...
>               Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach ...             In Chapter 9 of
> the Halichos Shlomo on Moadim, in the Orchos Halacha section, note 241, it
> says, "If much was missing (nechsar harbeh) from the kos, his (RSZA)
> practice was to refill it before the bracha of Asher Gaalanu." ...

I had made up a sevara that it should depend on whether one uses a
finger, so that the cup is basically full minus 16 drops, or you had used
a teaspoon. One can argue that the former would almost always leave the
cup visually similar to when you started, and it wouldn't be a kos pagum.

So, when reading the post I am thinking that RSE was basing himself
on sources from qehillos that just took out 16 quarter-spoonfulls, or
spill out from the side of the cup, and RSZA is writing based on the
East European (or maybe it is just Litvish?) norm of using your figure
and just getting a drop or two.

Thinking: maybe this dosn't reflect a machloqes, it's simply diferent
uqimtos.

If you could see if RDE's primary description is of using a finger or
later in the sentence "yeish omerim" style, we could confirm or falsify
my theorizing about his assummptions.

Chodesh Tov!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

PS: Sorry for letting that piece of spam through to the list. I knew
I had spam in the queue when I started, but then the subject line had
me think I miscounted how many pieces and that wasn't it.

-- 
Micha Berger                 Education is not the filling of a bucket,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   but the lighting of a fire.
Author: Widen Your Tent                   - W.B. Yeats
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

I saw a pretty complete discussion of the late origins of the idea
that the spilled wine is to mourn the fact that Yetzi'as Mitzrayim
had to inolve the suffering and death of so many Egyptians at a
web site I try to avoid linking to:
https://www.thetorah.com/article/spilling-wine-while-reciting-the-plagues-to-diminish-our-joy

That said, you will note that the idea really caught on among
more recent acharonim.

In the past, this discussion ends up at an impasse, where I show the
idea of compassion for our enemies has strong support in the Torah,
so we cannot say the idea is inherently unOrthodox. But we can't
say much more than that about it. I posted my impressions of one
such conversation (a lot of who posted what source) at
https://aspaqlaria.aishdas.org/2014/01/08/compassion-for-our-enemies


Chodesh Tov!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   exactly the right measure of himself,  and
Author: Widen Your Tent      holds a just balance between what he can
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham

From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2023 5:58 PM

> On Thu, Mar 23, 2023 at 09:52:36AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
>> R' Meir G. Rabi asked:
>>> Is the Koss filled before being raised for its Berachah?

>> Rabbi Shimon Eider, on page 271, writes: "The minhag is to add wine to the
>> cup to replace the wine that was spilled out..."
...
>>               Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach ...
>> says, "If much was missing (nechsar harbeh) from the kos, his (RSZA)
>> practice was to refill it before the bracha of Asher Gaalanu." ...

> I had made up a sevara that it should depend on whether one uses a
> finger, so that the cup is basically full minus 16 drops, or you had used
> a teaspoon. One can argue that the former would almost always leave the
> cup visually similar to when you started, and it wouldn't be a kos pagum.
...

here is an excellent article on this topic (not by me)
https://hakirah.org/Vol19Ron.pdf

On 23/3/23 13:34, Ari Zivotofsky via Avodah wrote:
> 
> here is an excellent article on this topic (not by me)
> https://hakirah.org/Vol19Ron.pdf

Thank you.  Note footnote 38, about the English translation of R Dovid 
Feinstein's hagada, and the original Hebrew.   As I wrote in this forum 
years ago, I believe the English translator misunderstood the Hebrew, 
which is simply an instruction on what to do with the spilled wine.  It 
is to be spilled out and destroyed, rather than retained and used.

Without the instruction some thrifty person might think to pour it all 
back into the bottle, or even back into the cups! But the wine is tamei, 
or at least symbolizes something undesirable, and part of the rite is 
its destruction. One is not just removing it from the cup but from the 
world.

Presumably one should not use shemita wine for the second cup, because 
it is forbidden to waste it, though I've never seen such an instruction 
anywhere.   (I have been told that when making havdala with shemita wine 
one should not put the candle out with it, and after havdala one should 
pour the wine that overflowed back in the cup and drink it.)

-- 
Zev Sero            ?Were we directed from Washington when to sow
z...@sero.name       and when to reap, we should soon want bread.?
                    ?Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821.

The Koss is raised to express gratitude but more importantly, to applaud
HKBH, to praise HKBH.

Before a 'toast' we are advised to 'charge' our cups - a full cup is a mark
of distinction but a cup that is not full may even be an insult!

How can we celebrate and praise HKBH's power and glory when HKBH failed?
80% of the Jews perished during the plague of darkness - is that a
testimony to HKBH's honour?
They witnessed 8 plagues and still remained unconvinced!

The Egyptians did not SEE HKBH's glory and convert or abandon their foolish
commitment to AZara
For a moment Paroh said - HKBH is the Tzaddik and I and my people are the
evil ones.
They witnessed TEN plagues and still remained unconvinced!

Each plague, each Wonder, each Sign - was HKBH trying to display His Glory
and persuade the spectators to open their eyes minds and hearts to Truth
but HKBH failed
How can we raise a full Koss to praise HKBH in such circumstances?
For each failure we remove some wine from the Koss
and we do not refill it

ON THAT GREAT DAY He will BE ONE and His NAME will be ONE

until then HKBH's Throne is incomplete
Ki Yad Al Kess Kah



Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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On 23/3/23 19:19, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> 
> Each plague, each Wonder, each Sign - was HKBH trying to display His 
> Glory and persuade the spectators to open their eyes minds and hearts to 
> Truth  but HKBH failed

Chas veshalom!!!  HKBH does not fail.  In this case, it was NEVER His 
goal to convince the Egyptians of anything.  On the contrary, He told 
Moshe from the beginning that the Egyptians would *not* be convinced. 
The goal was to teach the *rest* of the world, by giving them the 
example of what happened to the Egyptians, and let them draw the lesson.

The 80% who stayed were also not Hashem's failure, ch"v.  He never 
intended to take them out.

-- 
Zev Sero            ?Were we directed from Washington when to sow
z...@sero.name       and when to reap, we should soon want bread.?
                    ?Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821.



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