Avodah Mailing List

Volume 40: Number 61

Sun, 11 Sep 2022

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Prof. L. Levine
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2022 01:44:35 +0000
[Avodah] Eating Before Davening




  1.  If one slept and woke up after Chatzot<https://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Chatzot>
  it?s preferable not to eat before Davening<https://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Davening>
  unless there?s a need, however drinking is permissible until Olot
  Regarding whether one may eat before a fast prior to Olot HaShachar<https://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Olot_HaShachar>
  see Fast Days<https://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Fast_Days#When_does_the_fast_start>.
  2.  It?s forbidden to eat a KeBaytzah<https://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=KeBaytzah>
  of bread or Pas HaBah Bekisnin<https://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Pas_HaBah_Bekisnin>
  or to drink an intoxicating drink after a half hour prior to Olot
  If one began before this, one may continue until Olot HaShachar<https://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Olot_HaShachar>.[3]<https://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Eating_Before_Davening#cite_note-3>
  3.  After Olot HaShachar<https://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Olot_HaShachar>,
  it?s forbidden to eat or drink anything besides water until one
  4.  The minhag is to allowing having coffee or tea even with sugar and
  milk added.[5]<https://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Eating_Before_Davening#cite_note-5>


  1.  Ashkenazi Women may not eat before davening Shacharit,[16]<https://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Eating_Before_Davening#cite_note-16>,
  while Sephardi women may.[17]<https://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Eating_Before_Davening#cite_note-17>
     *	 Some poskim say that if a woman wants to eat before davening, she
     should say a short prayer that includes praise of Hashem, a request to
     Hashem, and thanks to Hashem and then eat. It is preferable for her to
     also say the first paragraph of shema before eating. This solution
     works even if she is later going to daven a regular davening

Eating before Kiddush

  1.  On Shabbat, some poskim write that a married woman who didn't daven
  yet and is permitted to eat, such as in the case above, if her husband
  has not davened yet, some poskim hold that she may eat without reciting
  Kiddush. Once she davened certainly she needs to recite Kiddush before
  eating. However, an unmarried woman who didn't daven yet and is permitted
  to eat, such as in the case above, must recite Kiddush before
  2.  Sephardi poskim hold that women may not eat before Kiddush and if she
  usually davens she may drink coffee or tea before davening; a mother who
  is nursing may rely on those who say it is permitted for women to eat
  without Kiddush during the day.[20]<https://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Eating_Before_Davening#cite_note-20>

See the above URL for much more.

Professor Yitzchok Levine

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Message: 2
From: Zvi Lampel
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2022 12:38:45 -0400

and available in USA stores, and through



It should be available on Amazon soon, and in Israel and Canada within a
few weeks.

Here is a challenge for Avodah readers:

The new edition contains a contradiction between two statements made
chapters apart. It was not intended as an esoteric-Straussian device.
Rather, it should be attributed to the Rambam's second cause for

Hint: It is regarding an issue debated by RMB and me on past Avodah posts.

*In a new font and layout, the contents and sequence of the chapters are
re-edited and rearranged for sharper focus. In particular, the issue of the
Amoraim?s subservience to the Tannaim and the Mishnah is further
crystallized, and the chapter discussing Eilu Veilu is greatly expanded.
Corrections have been made, additional valuable material has been provided,
and a full index is added. Hebrew passages are vocalized, and
transliterations  are standardized and in consonance with the wider
readership of b?nei Torah (so that Moshe Rabbeinu replaces Moses, rebbi and
talmid replaces mentor and disciple, etc.).
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Message: 3
From: Prof. L. Levine
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2022 15:46:28 +0000
[Avodah] The Catechism of the Jew Consists of his Calendar

Please see the article by RSRH on this topic at

Tishri I<https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/tishrei_I_41_51_colected_II.pdf>

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Message: 4
From: Joel Rich
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2022 16:18:49 -0400
[Avodah] controversial policy statement

[image: Site logo image] Torah Musings <https://www.torahmusings.com/>Audio
Roundup 2022:35 <https://www.torahmusings.com/2022/09/audio-roundup-202235/>

Gil Student

Sep 6

by Joel Rich

Could it be that interest and discussion of mashiach in Jewish sources was
fueled by Christianity?s claim of his already having come?

I remember a discussion I had years ago with my Rosh Yeshiva, R Yitzchok
Hutner, about a controversial policy statement made by one of the leading
Torah figures of the time. It so happened that I didn?t quite agree with
that position and I mentioned my reservations to R Hutner. R Hutner
vehemently chastised me for my skepticism, telling me that I just didn?t
understand and that I was incumbent upon me to show the proper respect for
the gadol hador and I accepted his reproof. Six months later after the
?dust had settled? on this issue, R Hutner called me into his office and
brought up that topic again. To my great surprise he confided that he
considered the objection I had raised six months earlier to be quite valid.
I asked him why he had so sharply attacked my ?chutzpah? in disagreeing
with that Torah leader. His response taught me a great lesson: When a Torah
leader is under attack, he needs and desires our backing and assistance.
When others are criticizing him, we need to be supportive. But now, time
has passed and the topic is off the table, there is less talk about it and
we can discuss the issue on its merits. At this point, we can honestly
assess what happened and consider whether, possibly, it could have been
handled differently.
Me-Comments on the approach of not privately discussing the merits in


joel rich
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2022 16:40:59 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Is a psak forever?

On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 04:59:45PM -0400, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> Is a psak forever? Example- a pulpit rabbi holds a unique lenient position
> concerning grama on Shabbat. After his retirement, is every future
> congregant (and Rabbi) "bound" by that leniency? Are members of that
> congregation bound to inform visitors of their utilization of the leniency?

I don't have a formal answer to your question. I can only say that in
practice, I've seen new LORs respect the ruling of their predecessor
for the first several years.

And only once the congregation has put the previous rabbi into their
past do the rulings slowly start changing.

You also raise the perennial question of how to decide whether we are
discussing mainline vs chumerah or discussing qulah vs mainline. It would
seem like we would expect chumeros to outlast qulos, kind of like the
community were "shavya alei". But how do you know which leniencies are
"qulos" as opposed to just a lack of chumerah?

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 One who kills his inclination is as though he
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
Author: Widen Your Tent      you must know where to slaughter and what
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

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Message: 6
From: Prof. L. Levine
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2022 23:51:08 +0000
[Avodah] Can I Defrost Challah on the First Day of Yom Tov?



Is one permitted to take a challah from the freezer on the first day of Yom Tov, so that it will be defrosted in time for the nighttime meal?

In general, there is a prohibition to prepare on Yom Tov for after Yom Tov,
or from the first day of Yom Tov to the next, even if the preparation does
not involve any of the melachot (39 forbidden activities). This restriction
is known as hachanah. For example, one is not permitted to wash dishes on
the first day of Yom Tov, if one will not need those dishes until the
evening, when the second day of Yom Tov has begun.

However, Rav Belsky, zt?l, ruled that one may defrost challah or meat so
that it can be used at night. This is because the removal of the challah
from the freezer does not immediately prepare the food for the next day.
For many hours the bread will remain frozen, and the thawing happens on its
own. Since one does not actively thaw the food, but rather it defrosts on
its own, this is not a prohibited form of hachanah.


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