Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 28

Wed, 24 Mar 2021

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:17:14 -0400
Re: [Avodah] A New Mitzvah at the Seder

On 23/3/21 9:58 am, allan.engel--- via Avodah wrote:
> I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average
> person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos
> Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish
> eating the Korban early in the night, so as not to transgress the D'oraysa
> (in the same way as we stop eating Chametz long before Chatzos Yom on the
> 14th Nissan).

Not necessarily.  Sinch chatzos is only a geder to prevent it running 
past dawn, people may have been generous in calculating it, knowing that 
if they ran over it by a little it was no big deal.

Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 19:47:46 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Hakhana From Shabbat to Seder

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 05:48:22PM +0000, Aryeh Frimer via Avodah wrote:
> There has been a bit of discussion on Avodah regarding Hakhana From
> Shabbat to Seder. After all, Hakhanot for a Devar Mitzva or often
> permitted on Shabbat.

I specifically brought up starting at sheqei'ah instead of waiting for
tzeis because it then involves two factors and there is STRONG consensus
to allow: shevus bein hashemeshos, and lidevar mitzvah.

No new sources since last time. Just pointing out that The answer from
R Eli Gersten of OU's Halacha Yomis doesn't actually help me understand
why we cannot start setting the seder table at sheqi'ah.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 When we are no longer able to change a situation
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   -- just think of an incurable disease such as
Author: Widen Your Tent      inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    ourselves.      - Victor Frankl (MSfM)

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Message: 3
From: Joseph Kaplan
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 02:35:46 +0000
[Avodah] Jewish law has evolved

"I can't know the grasp that anyone has but to say "The correctness of the
statement that, "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so," is
incorrect," requires a bit of logic (e.g. evolved means evolved in a way
not reflective of prior precedent and changes in facts on the ground) that
might not be obvious to the average reader. Thoughts??

My thought is that Jewish law is too complex to sum up in a letter to the
editor even if everyone reading it is Orthodox. And, of course, Jews who
are not Orthodox have a different view of Jewish law. Thus, to say in a
letter to the editor that  "Jewish law has evolved and continues to do so?
is correct or incorrect is an exercise of futility. 


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Message: 4
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 11:54:54 -0400
[Avodah] Egg Matza on Shabbos Erev Pesach

In last week's issue of Ami magazine (4 Nisan, #510) Rabbi Moshe Taub's
column is about Shabbos Erev Pesach. On page 162, he gives ideas for how to
do the seudos, writing: "B. Use egg matzah. This would only work for

Why would this not work for Sefaradim? Do they hold that egg matza is not
pas habaa bkisnin? Do they hold that Pas habaa bkisnin remains mezonos even
when one is kovea seuda on it? Maybe it's just not practical to eat 3-4
kebtitzos of it.

Any other ideas?

Akiva Miller
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Message: 5
From: Prof. L. Levine
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 13:38:09 +0000
[Avodah] Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna?

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis

Q. Some people do not want to have any chametz on the table Shabbos erev Pesach. Can kosher for Pesach egg matzos be used for lechem mishneh?

A. Egg matzah is in the category of pas ha?ba b?kisnin (bread-like items
that are usually eaten for a snack). Ordinarily, if one eats egg matzah the
bracha is borei minai mezonos, unless it is part of a substantial meal.
Nonetheless, Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igros Moshe OC 1:155) writes that if egg
matzah is used for lechem Mishnah for a Shabbos meal, the bracha is
hamotzi. One should make sure to eat at least a kibaiya (a little more than
2 fl. oz) of egg matzah, in addition to other foods that will be served at
the meal. According to many opinions egg matzah can only be eaten as long
as chometz can be consumed, which is the end of the fourth hour.

The Rema (OC 444:1) writes that in our communities, egg matzah is not eaten
on Pesach. Therefore, on erev Pesach one should fulfill shalosh seudos with
fruit. The implication of Rema is that egg matzah may not be eaten on erev
Pesach in the afternoon. However, the Chok Yaakov (444:1) writes that it is
possible that the Rema only meant that one is not required to find egg
matzah for Shalosh Seudos since it was uncommon in their communities, but
if one had egg matzah it may be eaten. The Sharei Teshuva (444:2) as well
writes that there is a basis to be lenient. Rav Schachter says that if one
has egg matzah that they know was made with grape juice (matzah ashira
according to all opinions) it may be eaten in the afternoon for shalosh
seudos, up until 3 hours (sha?os zmaniyos) before Yomtov.

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Message: 6
From: Danny Schoemann
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 17:30:39 +0200
Re: [Avodah] Names of Months

Have a look at the AhSh in Even haEzer 126:17 (2nd half) where he battles
with the source of the name Marcheshvan.

Online at

(Interestingly enough, in 126:19 he says there's a Kometz under these
months, Nison, Iyor, Sivon, Marcheshvon, Shvot, Ador.)

Kol Tuv

- Danny

On Tue, Oct 20, 2020, R' Brent Kaufman wrote:
>> Now that the ancient pantheons of gods have been brought up, can anyone
>> give an explanation for why the we name our months after Babylonian gods?

RMB replied:
> Of the ones we know translations for, only Tammuz. Warach Dumuzu means
"the month of [the god] Tammuz".

> This month, Warach Samnu, which becomes Marcheshvan when mem and yud/vav
swap during the borrowing, simply means "8th month".
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Message: 7
From: Prof. L. Levine
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 10:39:37 +0000
[Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement

The fact it that the Shabbatzi Tzvi movement swept the Jewish world. Many important rabbonim became his followers. For example, see my article

"Recife - The First Jewish Community in the New World<http://www.jewishpress.com/sections/magazine/glimpses-ajh/recife-the-first-jewish-community-in-the-new-world/2005/06/01/>"
The Jewish Press, June 3, 2005, page 32. Glimpses into American Jewish
History Part 3.

The concluding paragraph there is

*After finishing this article I discovered that Rabbi Isaac Aboab da
Fonseca was apparently a follower of Shabbtai Tzvi. (See www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.
jsp?artid=344&letter=A#810, The Sabbatean Prophets by Matt Goldish page
33, and Sabbatai Sevi by Gershom Scholem, pages 520-522.) To put it mildly,
I was shocked, given the greatness of Rabbi Aboab. However, it made me
realize how strong the messianic movement in the 17th century must have
been to gain adherents of Rabbi Aboab`s caliber.

Jacob Sasportas  was one of the most violent antagonists of the
Shabbethaian movement; he wrote many letters to various communities in
Europe, Asia, and Africa, exhorting them to unmask the impostors and to
warn the people against them. However,	I do not believe that he was
considered a gadol by many.

So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came to the Shabbatai Movement?

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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:34:22 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Names of Months

On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 05:30:39PM +0200, Danny Schoemann via Avodah wrote:
> Have a look at the AhSh in Even haEzer 126:17 (2nd half) where he battles
> with the source of the name Marcheshvan.

It his conclusion of that discussion says that he considers these
explanations derashos, because RYME writes "Amnam be'eemes ein doreshin

So, I don't think he is repeating them as possible sources as much as
derashos some find meaningful.

Tir'u baTov!

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Message: 9
From: Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 13:52:04 -0400
Re: [Avodah] updated short (in English) tshuvos from Horav

I would be leery of psakim quoted from RSM. For example, at 
https://baisdovyosef.com/2861-a-clean-slate-on-clean-hands/ Rabbi 
Bartfeld quotes him as stringent on foaming soap. My chevrusa asked 
Rabbi Felder from Toronto to ask him about this, and he said he is 
mattir whipped cream from a can on Shabbos /v'harei ha'devarim kal 



On 3/22/2021 6:39 PM, mcohen--- via Avodah wrote:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%20all.doc?dl=0 
> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jqlihzci97xunk/RSMiller%20RBartfeld%20questions%20all.doc?dl=0>
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:30:10 -0400
Re: [Avodah] A Question Raised by the Shabbatai Tzvi Movement

On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 10:39:37AM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> So, I think that one must ask, "Where was Daas Torah when it came to the Shabbatai Movement?

Ask R Yonasan Eybshutz and R Yaaqov Emden.

There was a LOT of speaking up and finger pointing by the gedolei
hador. Didn't help. The thing is, a number of rabbanim fell for him. So,
those who wanted to believe had who to rely on. (Kind of like what
happens with much of "Daas Torah" today, now that it actually is cosidered
"a thing".)

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 Circumstances don't make a person,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   they reveal a person.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF


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