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Volume 39: Number 22

Fri, 12 Mar 2021

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Ben Bradley
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 11:20:10 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha


Can't see your take on this in his words.
He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim are
'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the root is
Hashem's Torah not our actions.
Further on in the words I quoted in the last email, the word 'bishvilchem'
is vital. It's for 'for you', that's quite different to being 'from you' ,
ie me'itchem or some similar term. And he uses the term  bishvilchem twice
twice in that passage.
A bit further again: 'ki ein shum kedusha v'inyan eloki klal biladei metzius haBoreh yisbarach shemo'.  No reference to our role in maintaining kedusha there.
And more broadly, his whole thesis revolves around the misunderstanding
that kedusha can be a feature of something in the world independent of
ratzon Hashem. So Moshe smashed the luchos to show the people how 'they
hadn't achieved the goal of emuna in Hashem and his Torah hatehora'. That
is, they had to realise that even the luchos were only kadosh because HKBH
willed it. I'm part paraphrasing that section of course but,I think,
accurately.
It's true, he does also make clear that kedusha is depedant on us. But that's because without us it's meaningless, not because it originates with is.

Ben



________________________________
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Sent: 08 March 2021 06:32
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Cc: Ben Bradley <bdbradle...@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha

On Mon, Mar 08, 2021 at 08:54:46AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote:
> ... I took a look at the meshech chochma ad loc, Shemos 32:19

> He certainly says, and emphasises, that kedusha is never an indepedantly
> inherent quality of a place or item. But his point there is that kedusha
> is always comes from Hashem and is a function of His relationship from
> with us. It originates with Hashem's tzivui and lasts as long as we
> relate to it the correct way...

I think we are reading "ve'eizu qedushah beli mitzvas Hashem" differently.

You see it as a reference to the tzivui itself. I see it as a reference
to our performing the mitzvah. And so what you call "and lasts as long
as we relate to it the correct way" to me is just a natural consequence
of qedushah coming from our performance of a mitzvah. As R Meir Simchah
haKohein writes further down,
    ki ein benivra qedushah be'etzem
    raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah
    kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger                 Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   In that space is our power to choose our
Author: Widen Your Tent      response. In our response lies our growth
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)
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Message: 2
From: Prof. L. Levine
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 16:54:27 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] Is one to stand or sit when making Kiddush?


From

https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/
[https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/%22https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/907310658.webp?mw=500&mh=282%22]<https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/>
Is one to stand or sit when making Kiddush? ? Shulchanaruchharav.com<https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/>
Is one required to stand when making Kiddush? Night Kiddush: [1] It is
proper to stand while reciting Vayechulu in Kiddush. However, when one says
the blessing of Kiddush [i.e. Hagafen and onwards], it is better to sit. [
From the letter of the law, however, he may stand if he chooses.]
Practically, in these [Ashkenazi] provinces, the widespread custom is to
sit even while reciting Parshas ...
shulchanaruchharav.com

Night Kiddush:[1]<https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/#_ftn1>
It is proper to stand while reciting Vayechulu in Kiddush.[2]<https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/#_ftn2>
However, when one says the blessing of Kiddush [i.e. Hagafen and onwards],
it is better to sit.[3]<https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/#_ftn3>
[>From the letter of the law, however, he may stand if he
chooses.[4]<https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/#_ftn4>]
 Practically, in these [Ashkenazi] provinces, the widespread custom is to
sit even while reciting Parshas Vayechulu, although they slightly lift
their bodies when saying the first words of Yom Hashishi Vayechulu
Hashamayim.[5]<https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/#_ftn5>
[The above is all in accordance to Halacha, however, according to Kabal
 lah, Kiddush is to be recited in a standing position.[6]<https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/#_ftn6>
 Practically, the Chabad custom is to stand for the night Kiddush by all
 times, whether on Shabbos or Yom Tov.[7]<https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/#_ftn7>
 So is also the Sefaradi custom, to stand for the night Kiddush[8]<https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/#_ftn8>
 and so is the custom of some Gedolei Ashkenaz.[9]<https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/#_ftn9>
 Other Gedolei Yisrael of Ashkenaz, however, retain the custom to sit while
 saying Kiddush.[10]<https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/#_ftn10>]

Day Kiddush: Whether one should stand or sit for the day Kiddush follows
the same laws as the night Kiddush, of which we ruled that from the letter
of the law one may choose to sit or stand, although it is better to sit and
that so is the custom.[11]<https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/#_ftn11>
However, according to the ruling of Kabala, it is debated if the day
Kiddush is to be recited in a standing position just as the night Kiddush,
or if it is to be recited sitting.[12]<https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/#_ftn12>
Practically, many of those who are accustomed to stand for the night
Kiddush are accustomed to sit for the day Kiddush.[13]<https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/#_ftn13>
Regarding the Chabad custom for the day Kiddush, there is no clear Chabad
custom in this matter [as brought below] and whatever one chooses to do by
the day Kiddush he
  has upon what to rely.

Drinking the wine:[14]<https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/#_ftn14>
Even those who are accustomed to reciting Kiddush standing, are to drink
the wine after Kiddush only after they sit.[15]<https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/#_ftn15>
[Nonetheless, some are lenient to drink the wine even while
standing.[16]<https://shulchanaruchharav.com/halacha/is-one-to-stand-or-sit-when-making-kiddush/#_ftn16>]

Summary:

From the letter of the law, Kiddush can be said in either a sitting or
standing position, and each one contains advantages over the other.
Practically, different customs exist regarding if Kiddush is to be said
sitting or standing, and each community is to follow their custom.
Sefaradim stand for the night Kiddush but sit for the day Kiddush. Amongst
Ashkenazim, some sit and others stand for both the night and day Kiddush.
The Chabad custom is to recite the night Kiddush standing, although
regarding the day Kiddush there is no clear custom.


See the above URL for more.


YL



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Message: 3
From: Ben Bradley
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:10:39 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha


I'm stymied at this point by not being able to find the original posts we're referring to. But you state


'Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is
the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those
mitzvos?

If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain
why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over'

I think the temporary kedusha of Har Sinai is at least as consistent with
the first approach as the second. Har Sinai had kedusha due to its role
Hashem giving the Torah. Ma'amad finishes, kedusha ceases. At least as much
emphasis on giver as receiver.

I still think Shabbos is the proof. It's kadosh because Hashem wills it,
period. Its kedusha is for us, to be sure, but our failure to keep it
doesn't impact its kedusha. It remains kadosh regardless of our chillul.
When it comes to kedusha of places and things, our reponse affects it
because it's in our physical domain. Time is not in our domain, we live in
it not vice versa, so we can't affect its kedusha. But there's only one
overarching model of kedusha, and the principle gorem is Hashem, not us.
Ben
________________________________
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Sent: 09 March 2021 06:22
To: Ben Bradley <bdbradle...@hotmail.com>
Cc: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Meshech Chochma on kedusha

On Tue, Mar 09, 2021 at 11:20:10AM +0000, Ben Bradley wrote:
> He starts by saying that the kedushos of eretz yisroel and Yerushalayim
> are 'pratei usnifei haTorah v'niskadshu bikedushas ha Torah'. Ie the
> root is Hashem's Torah not our actions.

Our difference of opinion is not whether RMShK holds that qedushah means
G-dliness and thus must be connecting to Hashem's qedushah, to tzivui
and to Torah.

And thus all your quotes are consistent with my understanding, since
they aren't about our point of contention.

But:
Who is bringing the Torah into the world? Is EY qadosh because it is
the subject of extra mitzvos? Or is it qadosh because we do those
mitzvos?

If you say the MC's position is the latter, you don't have to explain
why Har Sinai loses qedushah as soon as Maamad Har Sinai is over, but
Har haBayis can be qadosh even without a BHMQ. Because it is people
who connect Divine Will with a place or object, when people lose that
association the qedushah is gone.

And then there is the text I quoted last time, which I think can only
be understood as the MC saying that qedushah comes from our bringing our
avodas Hashem, and thus His Will and His Qedushah, to the place or object.

    ... ein benivra qedushah be'etzem
    raq mitzad shemiras Yisrael haTorah
    kefi Retzon haBorei yisbarakh shemo haqadosh...


-Micha

--
Micha Berger                 "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
http://www.aishdas.org/asp    'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
Author: Widen Your Tent       'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                   - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l
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Message: 4
From: <mco...@touchlogic.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 07:55:54 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] eruv pesach on Shabbos morning seudah


See
https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/pesach/app/371/a-guide-to-
erev-shabbos-that-occurs-on-pesach/

 

He writes there that one should preferably not use egg matzah 'Because the
bracha on egg matzah is a matter of dispute, adults should use rolls for
lechem mishneh'

 

What dispute is he referring to?

 

If you are koveia seudah on mezonos..its hamoztee.

 

Mordechai cohen

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Message: 5
From: Zev Sero
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 16:17:41 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] eruv pesach on Shabbos morning seudah


On 11/3/21 7:55 am, mcohen--- via Avodah wrote:
> He writes there that one should preferably not use egg matzah ?Because 
> the /bracha/?on egg matzah is a matter of dispute, adults should use 
> rolls for /lechem mishneh/?
> 
> What dispute is he referring to?
> 
> If you are koveia seudah on mezonos..its hamoztee.
> 

Only if you eat a shiur, which according to some opinions is 4 eggs if 
you are satisfied from the meal (which I assume you would be).  Still, 
that's not an impossibly huge amount; why not just tell people that they 
have to eat that much egg matzah?

(If you're not satisfied from the meal then the opinions range from 6 
eggs to half an issaron, which is 21.6 eggs.  Though presumably you'll 
be satisfied long before then. But in that case the eitza is simply to 
eat another potato!)

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"



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Message: 6
From: Prof. L. Levine
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:19:39 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] THE HESEIBA VIDEO!


HaRav Yisroel Belsky, Z?tl, explains that Heseiba is not intended to be an
act of contortion, but a comfortable way to eat in a reclined fashion, as
if one is on a short bed. By clicking here,<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001cWlICgvHR_AVP2uw8ssaLJaySnBazaT4EUOYxzv1it0v1okHL0ZDXBss8W7lf6xAnO1PsjU_lvNYxupGt_ozggcSpIWnN0xLyzJRiGS7yANqZoQlm3QlHS18D4QxWNoAoM6ifdQTf6ORUOQij5cQXQFnQMd49s4qsJQwUJR__7Ot6yryc4P4N9QYFCnrz9mU8RK3oDzqF5Ru58YE3DQOFA==&;c=KQfvAtNHkbkj99L26VolOiZWlMyM3faFf8JhAiCCaawl5dVmuMR46g==&ch=6HSvGUsaLZcI2m6t0Czo77SMVRWrh1g9CKnr-zKWC7ggsoQzX0w3gg==>
we present a video of HaRav Yisroel Belsky, Z?tl, demonstrating how Heseiba
should be done

YL
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