Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 106

Thu, 10 Dec 2020

• 1. Re: Is it permissible to eat while walking outside through a marketplace? (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Re: The shape of the Menorah of the Temple (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Is it permissible to eat while walking outside through a marketplace? (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Re: The shape of the Menorah of the Temple (Zev Sero)
• 5. Evidence of Yoseif's Famine (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: The shape of the Menorah of the Temple (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Evidence of Yoseif's Famine (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: The shape of the Menorah of the Temple (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: simple daf yomi question (Zev Sero)
• 10. Unusual Halacha (cantorwolberg)

.
R' Marty Bluke asked:

> Why are we so sure that this Halacha even applies today? This
> seems to be a societal thing, in the time of Chazal it was
> considered disrespectful to eat outside. However, chazals eating
> habits were very different than ours. We no longer eat reclining
> and we no longer follow many of the other minhagei seuda of
> chazal. So if today it?s considered acceptable by society to eat
> outside then chazals dictate should not apply.

I have wondered the same thing.

One could make a whole list of topics, some of which are dependent on the
local society, and others are categorical for all times and places, leaving
over a third category where Chazal were unclear about the issue.

This very week on Avodah, we discussed whether "mpnei machlokes" situations
are universal or not. Every so often, we discuss whether the importance of
eating meat on Yom Tov depends on personal preferences. Rav Soloveitchik
famously held that certain chazakos "rest not upon transient psychological
behavioral patterns, but upon permanent ontological principles rooted in
the very depth of the human personality."

We have our work cut out for us. Each case has to be investigated
carefully. For a long time, I had thought that the halachos of Shinui Makom
(the requirement to repeat a bracha rishona because one left the place
where he was eating) was related to society and formal dining, and
therefore might change when eating habits changed. But my current
understanding is that it results from technicalities about Chazal's
requirement that one say a bracha acharona in the same place as he ate, so
leaving that place complicates the bracha rishona as well.

> For example, chazal state that a person should put on some kind
> of belt for davening. This is the reason chasidim wear a gartel.
> And yet, the non Hasidic world has abandoned this practice
> because our mode of dress has changed and this is no longer
> considered a respectful form of dress.

If the reason for a belt or gartel is related to being "a respectful form
of dress", then RMBluke is raising an excellent point, and it should be
okay to pray in a full-length gown, even without a belt or underwear. But
my understanding is that the requirement for a belt is *not* related to
fashion, but is specifically to make a separation between one's head and
private parts, and would apply in all times and places. The reason
non-chasidim don't wear a gartel is because the regular belt is sufficient,
and even without an actual belt a waistband can suffice. (More details at
Orach Chayim 91:2)

Among my pet peeves is people who think that there is a halacha, in all
times and places, that one's shirt needs to be covered for davening, and so
they wear the same dirty windbreaker or parka as when they are doing other
activities. Rather, one must dress for davening in an honorable way, and
this *is* dependent on local fashion, so while a suit or sport jacket might
be the best in many circles, a plain clean shirt is preferable to covering
that shirt with a shmatta.

Of course, I might be wrong. Maybe there IS a halacha that one's shirt
needs to be covered for davening in all times and places. Let me know what
you find.

Akiva Miller
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I am reviving a thread from Dec 2003, started by RSM at
<https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol12/v12n065.shtml#12>. The news carried
more data points attesting to the curviture of the arms of the menorah
in the Chashmonaim's and Herod's version of the BHMQ.

Which RET and I revived for similar reasons in 2008 & 2009, respectively,
reports came from other excavations, and again in 2010 because the IE's
position ended up discussed on Areivim. See the coverage of this subject
line at
https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=S#SHAPE%20OF%20THE%20MENORAH%20OF%20THE%20TEMPLE
and the previous topic (which is just "Shape of the Menorah").

So, here's the latest news
https://www.timesofisrael.com/rare-second-temple-menorah-drawing-from-biblical-maccabean-site-brought-to-light/

    The Times of Israel
    Archaeology / The sword ceased from Israel, but Jonathan dwelt at Michmas

    Rare Second Temple menorah drawing from biblical Maccabean site
    brought to light
    Amanda Borschel-Dan | 8 December 2020, 2:05 am

    Hitherto unpublished 2,000-year-old engraved menorah, forgotten in
    archives for 40 years, shores up hypothesis that ancient Michmas
    was a priestly settlement, study says

    Just ahead of Hanukkah, a forgotten 2,000-year-old engraved drawing of
    the Temple menorah is again seeing the light of day.

    First uncovered 40 years ago during archaeological surveys at Michmas,
    ...
    Michmas, today the Arab village Kfar Mukhmas, about 3 kilometers (1.8
    miles) from the modern Jewish settlement of Maaleh Michmas and 9
    kilometers (5.5 miles) from Jerusalem, is cited in the Book of
    Maccabees as the first base for the Jewish leader and future high
    priest, Jonathan. It is also identified in Mishnah Menahot 8:1 as the
    provider of the Temple's semolina wheat.

    Ancient Michmas is most known from the Book of Maccabees. As depicted
    in 1 Maccabees 9:73, Jonathan, the youngest of the five sons of
    revolt-instigating priest Mattathias, makes peace with the Seleucid
    general Bacchides and settles in Michmas ahead of beginning his rule,
    which spanned 161-143 BCE. "Thus the sword ceased from Israel: but
    Jonathan dwelt at Michmas, and began to govern the people; and he
    destroyed the ungodly men out of Israel." (King James Bible)
    ...

     As part of the new study, Raviv published for the first time the rare
     engraving of the menorah -- a symbol of priesthood during the Second
     Temple period -- that was discovered in a burial cave in the 1980s and
     forgotten....

     According to the 1980s report, the menorah is approximately 50
     centimeters (20 inches) wide and 30 centimeters (12 inches) high with a
     flat base of some 10 centimeters (4 inches). It has a total of seven
     branches, with six branches coming out of a central stem. Raviv writes
     that the menorah was crowned by an intriguing but unclear paleo-Hebrew
     letter, which was scratched into the cave wall. Rather large, the
     letter is 40 centimeters (15.5 inches) high and 20 centimeters (almost
     8 inches) wide, and could be proof of a further priestly tie, said
     Raviv.
     ...

     Two additional charcoal menorahs at Michmas

     This newly rediscovered menorah and mysterious letter join another
     1980s find of a hideaway cave, in the nearby el-'Aliliyat region.
     There, archaeologists discovered a mikveh (ritual bath), a cistern, and
     two menorahs drawn with a charcoaled stick, one crowned by an
     Aramaic/Hebrew inscription.
     ...
     The three Michmas menorah drawings are all likely dated to a period
     from circa 150 BCE to 136 CE and join only a handful of other
     seven-branched menorah representations from the Second Temple period.
     ...
     "Due to the difficulty in determining the exact date of the [Michmas]
     menorah's graffito and the scarcity of explicit references to priests
     in Michmas during the Second Temple period, it is possible that a group
     reached the site only after the destruction of the Temple and lived
     there during the period between the revolts," said Raviv in the press
     release.

So, at some point or points in time between Yonasan haMakabi and Bar
Kokhva, Jews (and likely kohanim, see text) were pretty convinced the
menorah's arms were curved.


That said, let me reiterate... The dinim of making a menorah don't seem
to include the arms needing to be straight or curved. Assuming one can
figure out a way to hammer 24 kt gold arms into straight lines that don't
end up drooping under their own weight (eg having them narrow as they
get further from the base), the menorah could have been either. So I see
nothing ruling out Moshe's or Shelomo's menoros, or even the menoros of
most of the history of Bayis Sheini being straight.

It's not like we used the same menorah that Moshe made 1,300 years
later. Barring unmentioned nissim, there were multiple menoros that
were replaced. Did they all have exactly the same look?

But the people who were there at the end of Bayis Sheini seem to have
been convinced that the menorah of their day had curved arms.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 One who kills his inclination is as though he
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
Author: Widen Your Tent      you must know where to slaughter and what
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

Of course, I might be wrong. Maybe there IS a halacha that one's shirt needs to be covered for davening in all times and places. Let me know what you find.

----------------------------------
Imho this is a process which plays out historically without a clear 
algorithm.  Only through the eyes of retrospection (e.g. the aruch
hashulchan) is the result koshered (see hilchot aveilut as an example)
KT
Joel Rich
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On 9/12/20 1:30 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> The news carried
> more data points attesting to the curviture of the arms of the menorah
> in the Chashmonaim's and Herod's version of the BHMQ.

Not the Chashmonaim's original version, which was made of iron spears 
and therefore presumably the arms were straight.  But later, when it was 
replaced with a golden one.


> Which RET and I revived for similar reasons in 2008 & 2009, respectively,
> reports came from other excavations, and again in 2010 because the IE's
> position ended up discussed on Areivim.

*Not* the IE's position.  He makes two statements about the menorah's 
structure, neither of which is about the shape of the arms.

1. (in the short IE printed in chumashim) that the arms were like reeds, 
being round in *cross-section* and hollow; that would seem to imply that 
they were also straight like a reed, but he doesn't say so, and maybe in 
that aspect they were not like reeds.

2. (in the long IE that's published as a separate book) that the arms 
were not arranged in a flat vertical plane, as everyone else seems to 
think, but rather the six arms were arranged in a semi-circle behind and 
around the seventh one, like half of a chandelier.  This is equally 
consistent with straight arms and with curved ones.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

From Snopes <https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/remains-kilimanjaro-bible-story>

    Do Remains Found on Mt. Kilimanjaro Parallel a Biblical Story?

    Claim

    Remains discovered on Mount Kilimanjaro provide evidence to support the
    story of Joseph, a well-known Bible passage about a drought in what is
    now Egypt nearly 4,000 years ago.

    Rating

        Mostly False

But what they find "mostly false is not the bit that the drought happened.
Just the bits over-eager Xian sites emballished it with.

(This framing is typical of Snopes' bias. I think their content is
accurate, but they present it in ways that show bias. Like focusing on
"remains" so that they can use the word "false" in the ratings. "Mostly
true" and "partially true" are also subjective calls in which their bias
peeks through.)

Anyway, here is the bit that made this an Avodah post:

   What's True

       Ohio State University researchers analyzed ice core samples retrieved
       from ice fields located atop Mount Kilimanjaro in Tanzania. The
       findings suggested that three "catastrophic droughts" took place over
       the fields' 11,700-year history, one of which coincided with the
       biblical story of Joseph 3,600 years ago.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Education is not the filling of a bucket,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   but the lighting of a fire.
Author: Widen Your Tent                   - W.B. Yeats
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Wed, Dec 09, 2020 at 02:38:51PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> > Which RET and I revived for similar reasons in 2008 & 2009, respectively,
> > reports came from other excavations, and again in 2010 because the IE's
> > position ended up discussed on Areivim.
> 
> *Not* the IE's position.  He makes two statements about the menorah's
> structure, neither of which is about the shape of the arms.

We did indeed discuss the IE's position. You're just repeating your
side of the discussion. Not sure why you're denying a position no one
asserted here in the past decade.

> 2. (in the long IE that's published as a separate book) that the arms were
> not arranged in a flat vertical plane, as everyone else seems to think, but
> rather the six arms were arranged in a semi-circle behind and around the
> seventh one, like half of a chandelier.  This is equally consistent with
> straight arms and with curved ones.

No need to site the picture. Shemos 25:37:
   And the qadmonim said: For one neir was in the middle, and the six
   arranged one after the other in half-circle "chatzi agul".

Saying the half-circle is on the horizontal plane, rather than the shapes
of the arms, is the only way to salvage the possibility of the IE holding
the arms were straight.

It could also be read as describing your standard curved-arm image of the
menorah. I don't know the connection between the IE and the illustrator.
Unlike the Rambam, where we know the straight arms in the picture go
back to his use of a straight-edge. And the most one can argue is that
he simply didn't bother constructing parabolic arms in a schematic
diagram of the gevi'im, kaftorim ufrachim.

As can the short IE's comment (v. 32) be read both ways. He says: agulim,
arukhim, chalalim.

You assert that the IE means agul in cross-section. I think that's
presuming your conclusion. OTOH, the half-circle arrangement in the long
peirush is "chatzi agul". Picturing a full quadrant, curved arms in a
half-circle, would explain the IE's use of agul in a consistent way.
Or not.

I took away from that conversation that the IE could be read either way,
and therefore can't be used in a discussion of the shape of the arms of
the menorah altogether.

(I also noted then that while 24 kt gold is both heavy and softer than
many other metals, and my metalurgist uncle did the math and found
that straight arms would droop, the arms being hollow would avoid that
problem. Unfortunately, 10 years later, my uncle is no longer in any
shape to field any more such questions. Al taazveinu le'eis ziqnah...)



But this thread was originally about something much more haskalishe...
EVERY depiction of the menorah by people who could have seen it, or could
have met people who saw it, shows curved arms. And another example was
recently published, the third coming out of what looks like it was a
city of kohanim.

We may be forced to concude that whatever rishonim may have thought
about the appearance of the menorah in the Mishkan, in the latter part
of Bayis Sheini they were using a menorah with curved ones.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Rescue me from the desire to win every
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   argument and to always be right.
Author: Widen Your Tent                 - Rav Nassan of Breslav
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                 Likutei Tefilos 94:964

On 9/12/20 5:18 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
>         Ohio State University researchers analyzed ice core samples retrieved
>         from ice fields located atop Mount Kilimanjaro in Tanzania. The
>         findings suggested that three "catastrophic droughts" took place over
>         the fields' 11,700-year history, one of which coincided with the
>         biblical story of Joseph 3,600 years ago.

Except that that drought lasted 300 years, not the two years that 
Yosef's drought did.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

On 9/12/20 7:39 pm, Micha Berger wrote:
>> 2. (in the long IE that's published as a separate book) that the arms were
>> not arranged in a flat vertical plane, as everyone else seems to think, but
>> rather the six arms were arranged in a semi-circle behind and around the
>> seventh one, like half of a chandelier.  This is equally consistent with
>> straight arms and with curved ones.


> No need to site the picture.

What picture?


> Shemos 25:37:
>     And the qadmonim said: For one neir was in the middle, and the six
>     arranged one after the other in half-circle "chatzi agul".
> 
> Saying the half-circle is on the horizontal plane, rather than the shapes
> of the arms, is the only way to salvage the possibility of the IE holding
> the arms were straight.

It is not a "way to salvage" anything.  It is the plain meaning of his 
words.  I resent the accusation that I read it looking for a "way to 
salvage" anything.


> It could also be read as describing your standard curved-arm image of the
> menorah.

No, it cannot. He plainly says the *lamps* were arranged in a 
half-circle, not the arms.  The conventional picture everyone has of the 
menorah (*regardless* of the shape of the arms) has the lamps all in a 
line.   And the reason he gives is that the six arms should be 
illuminating the middle one, which doesn't work if they're all in a 
line.  That's why they're ranged behind it, radiating from it and 
illuminating it.  Otherwise his linking this to the pasuk "El Ever 
Paneha" doesn't seem to make much sense.   As for the shape of the arms 
he simply doesn't comment.


> As can the short IE's comment (v. 32) be read both ways. He says: agulim,
> arukhim, chalalim.
> 
> You assert that the IE means agul in cross-section. I think that's
> presuming your conclusion.

No, it is not.  It is simply reading the words.  His *whole point* is 
that they are like reeds.  And reeds are round in cross section, not in 
length.  They're pipes.  Now that implies they were straight, and that's 
very likely what he means by "aruchim", but I agree it's *possible* that 
he isn't talking about the lengthwise shape, and that in that aspect 
they weren't like reeds after all.


> We may be forced to concude that whatever rishonim may have thought
> about the appearance of the menorah in the Mishkan, in the latter part
> of Bayis Sheini they were using a menorah with curved ones.

Indeed, that conclusion seems inescapable.  I don't recall ever having 
argued against it.  I think it likely that the LR was unaware of the 
archaeological evidence, especially since most of it was discovered 
relatively recently.

His entire point in that sicha was to reject using Titus's arch as a 
source; assuming as he did that that is the major or only source for the 
rounded arms, he felt that giving it credence and basing our depictions 
on it is morally wrong.  But it seems to me from reading the text that 
he would have had no objections to a depiction of curved arms that was 
derived from kosher sources and owes nothing to that treife source.  He 
might not have agreed that such depictions are accurate, preferring to 
stick with the rishonim, but his objection wasn't based on the 
inaccuracy but on the source for it.




-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

On 7/12/20 10:13 am, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
> why *would* someone have terumah around that they need to burn for 
> Pesach?? Does this entire issue -- speaking practically -- only apply to 
> kohanim?

I don't see why that would be at all surprising or awkward.  Kohanim are 
not exactly uncommon, after all.   And Rabbi Chanina himself was, of 
course, a Kohen.

There would also be non-Kohanim who would have terumah in the house 
because they have a daughter married to a Kohen, so they keep their 
terumah to feed her and her family when they're visiting.  Especially 
for Pesach, when we see from Pesachim ch. 8 that it was common for 
married women, or at least newly married women, to leave their husbands 
and go to their parents' home for the seder.


> (Unless we're talking about a case where you're average Yankel 
> the farmer separated terumah but didn't give it over to his local kohain 
> yet -- but that didn't sound right.? Should Yankel be burning designated 
> terumah?

If it's chometz, then yes!

A better question would be why he would have terumah that is *chametz*. 
  Normally he'd have raw wheat, which is presumed not to be chametz. 
But an answer is that there is one form of terumah that everyone would 
regularly has in their home, and that is usually chametz.  That is 
Challah.  Challah is a kind of terumah, everyone has it from when they 
bake bread until the Kohen comes to collect it, and it's almost 
guaranteed to be chametz.  So on Erev Pesach you'd be likely to have the 
challah from the latest batch of bread you baked, and the Kohen has 
probably been too busy to come collect it.


-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

There is an unusual law in the observance of Chanukah which is unique among mitzvos. 
The Shulchan Aruch rules that one who doesn't have the opportunity to kindle Chanukah lights 
or to have someone lighting on his behalf in his home becomes obligated, upon merely seeing Chanukah lights anywhere, 
to recite the blessing "She'asah Nissim," "Who performed miracles" (Or ch.676.-3, in accordance with Rashi's interpretation of the text in Shabbos 23a).

Surely this is exceptional. If, due to circumstances beyond one's control, one doesn't eat matzoh on Pesach, 
or take hold of a lulav on Sukkos, or a hear a shofar on Rosh Hashanah, one is absolved of these obligations. 
If the mitzvah of Chanukah lights were solely to kindle them, then the inability to do so would similarly terminate the issue. 
However, such is not the case. It seems that beyond the actual kindling of lights, quintessentially, 

Chanukah imposes an obligation upon Jews to see things in a special light, to apprehend reality in a unique manner.
This is so timely for what we are experiencing. If we see this pandemic as a death sentence, then we are falling into a 
trap of utter hopelessness. However, it takes the Jew to see it in a special light as a challenge to life and to apprehend
reality in a positive ?LIGHT."

------------------------------



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