Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 46

Tue, 09 Jun 2020

• 1. Accounting for a Minyan, by R Gil Student (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: free public transport on Shabbos/Yomtov (Chana Luntz)
• 3. Re: free public transport on Shabbos/Yomtov (Zev Sero)
• 4. Birchas HaShachar (Sholom Simon)
• 5. Re: Birchas HaShachar (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Birchas HaShachar (allan.en...@gmail.com)
• 7. Re: Birchas HaShachar (Micha Berger)

Please see https://www.torahmusings.com/2020/06/accounting-for-a-minyan-2

    Torah Musings
    Accounting for a Minyan
    by R. Gil Student
    Jun 5, 20

    Can we count for a minyan a man who has stolen from the government?

All the sources that are the intended topic here deleted, as this is
just a teaser.

    IV. Conclusion

    I hesitate to draw any practical conclusions because these weighty
    matters need to be addressed by our leading rabbis. Preliminarily, it
    would seem, based on the above, that according to the Chakham Tzvi,
    people who repeatedly cheat the government, year after year, cannot be
    counted for a minyan (see also Minchas Yitzchak 3:65). According to the
    Seridei Eish, if the community believes that the chillul Hashem caused
    by government cheats merits excommunication, even just in theory, then
    those who commit this sin cannot be counted for a minyan. On the other
    hand, if--Heaven forbid--this sin is so common that people do not
    consider it forbidden, then people who violate it can count for a
    minyan according to the Zeicher Yehosef. Widespread sin is not
    permission but the opposite--recognition of a communal, rather than
    personal, spiritual illness. Additionally, Rav Moshe Feinstein (Iggeros
    Moshe, Orach Chaim 1:23) permits counting every sinner for a minyan,
    presumably aside from someone actually excommunicated. Therefore,
    according to Rav Feinstein, even government cheats can count for a
    minyan despite their theft, lies and chillul Hashem.

G'Shabbos,
-micha

RAM wrote (responding to RZS):

<<You seem to presume that the main/only problem is paying, or the maaris
ayin that others might think I paid for the ride. To me, a much bigger
problem is defining the line between which vehicles are so large and strong
that my weight is negligible and does not cause the vehicle to do more
melacha, versus those vehicles which are smaller and my weight *does* cause
the vehicle to work harder.>>

I think if we are going to have a meaningful discussion about this, it is
important to look at the reasons given by the poskim who prohibited such
travel in earlier years.  The place to start, I suggest, is the Shut Chatam
Sofer Chelek 6 siman 97, discussing steam engines.  And there he makes it
clear that the problem is not that the non-Jew is stoking the coals, because
the majority of the people he is stoking the coals for are non-Jews.  He
clearly did not regarding the minor amount of weight that was added by the
Jew as causing an issue in that case, if the majority of the travellers were
non-Jews.  One would have to consider whether the design of modern
combustion engines made that understanding more problematic, but it would
not seem to me to alter things significantly.

Rather the Chatam Sofer fundamentally prohibited (and he was primarily
discussing a situation where a person got on the train on erev Shabbat, like
a person gets on a boat erev Shabbat), and regardless he held that not only
is it uvda d'chol, but also that it violates a shvus, at least rabbinic, and
d'orisa according to a Ramban in Emor, because the person does an action
with their body, which sways back and forth.

The Tzitz Eliezer in Shut Tzitz Eliezer chelek 11 siman 21 agreed to this.
There he was discussing a case where a woman wanted to light candles and
then go to the kotel by car (before Shabbas) .  And the suggestion was, let
her light candles, bring in Shabbas, and have her husband, who had not yet
brought in Shabbas, drive her there.  And the Tzitz Eliezer rejects this
because the woman will herself be violating shabbas, based on the actions of
the woman's body.  See also his teshuva at  Tzitz Eliezer Chelek 1 siman 21
where he adds to the Chatam Sofer that there is a gezera lest the means of
transport go outside the techum and people get out.

On the other hand, those who permit, such as the Mishpachat Uzziel (see Shut
Piskei Uzziel B'Shailot HaZman siman 13, Shut Mishpat Uzziel Krach 1 Orech
Chaim siman 9) only do so in a situation where not only is the transport
owned by and driven by non-Jews, but the transport also does not go to any
place where there are Jewish settlements because in such a case, the bus
company and driver will be intending to carry Jews.  So it is only "in a
place where all the dwellers are not Jewish, is it permitted for a Jew to
travel on a [electric or steam] wagon of non-Jews, when it is accustomed to
go inside the city on condition that they do not need to pay money for a
ticket to travel on Shabbat or Yom Tov.  And even this is only for the sake
of a going of mitzvah, like going to the synagogue".  

So again the weight that might be added by the Jew in such a circumstance
(and of course he might be only one person of two on the bus that day), does
not factor into the calculations.

I suspect here that the divisions therefore come down to the same ones that
are found by bicycles.  With the Sephardi poskim by and large railing that
one cannot make new gezeros - although I think most these days follow Rav
Ovadiah who says that while m'ikar hadin bicycles are mutar on shabbas, the
minhag has spread to regard their use as uvda d'chol, and therefore one
shouldn't go against the minhag and use them.  Whereas the Ashkenazi poskim
quite happily bring gezeros that cannot be found in the Talmud (because the
items in question did not exist at the time of the Talmud, such as  a
prohibition on bicycles lest you need to fix it, or because it might make
grooves in the ground).  And indeed the Tzitz Eliezer follows his discourse
on trains  in the teshuva in Chelek 1 siman 21, with his comments on
bicycles.

> Further, assuming that there is no problem, suppose one boards within 
> an eruv, and gets off also within an eruv, but the two eruvin don't 
> touch each other.  Obviously one may carry on to the bus, and one may 
> carry on the bus, but may one carry off the bus what one brought on 
> board, and carry it around in the second eruv?

<<My first thought was to compare this to one who is carrying from a reshus
harabim to mekom petur, and then from that mekom petur to further on in the
reshus harabim. That's assur, but RZS's scenario could be several levels of
d'rabbanan down, especially if the two eruvin *do* touch each other.>>

Of course, if you hold like Rav Uzziel that it is only permitted where there
are no Jewish inhabitants, having two eruvin on the line eliminates the
permissibility of using the bus completely.  But leaving that aside.  Why
would it be a makom patur?  A bus is daled al daled at least, and generally
not more than ten tefachim off the ground.  So prima facie that is a  reshus
hayachid.  But surely the area inside the bus was never in the contemplation
of those who made the eruv (it was probably in some bus station miles away
when the eruv was made and each bein hashmashos, and there is no consent
from the owner of the bus to join in the eruv).  So would it not be
prohibited to carry from the street into the bus and back again?  

<<But then I realized that it might be assur even to bring the object onto
the bus to begin with. If one knows that the bus will bring the object
outside the eruv, is that any better than placing a ball on the ground, on a
hill, in a manner where the ball will definitely roll out of the eruv?>>

I think the bus has to be its own reshus -even if it is one that moves.  If
it was parked within the eruv most of the time, when it was not going, and
particularly ben hashmashos maybe it might be different.

>Akiva Miller

Regards Chana

On 7/6/20 5:56 pm, Chana Luntz via Avodah wrote:
> On the other hand, those who permit, such as the Mishpachat Uzziel (see Shut
> Piskei Uzziel B'Shailot HaZman siman 13, Shut Mishpat Uzziel Krach 1 Orech
> Chaim siman 9) only do so in a situation where not only is the transport
> owned by and driven by non-Jews, but the transport also does not go to any
> place where there are Jewish settlements because in such a case, the bus
> company and driver will be intending to carry Jews.

This seems to address a situation in Eretz Yisrael where there are 
settlements that are entirely Jewish, so that if the bus stops there it 
is obviously intending to service the people of that settlement.

>  So it is only "in a
> place where all the dwellers are not Jewish, is it permitted for a Jew to
> travel on a [electric or steam] wagon of non-Jews, when it is accustomed to
> go inside the city on condition that they do not need to pay money for a
> ticket to travel on Shabbat or Yom Tov.  And even this is only for the sake
> of a going of mitzvah, like going to the synagogue".

Obviously he does not mean that the Jew who wants to use it is the only 
Jew living along the line, or that there is no Jewish community. 
Because in that case how is there a shul for him to go to?


> Of course, if you hold like Rav Uzziel that it is only permitted where there
> are no Jewish inhabitants, having two eruvin on the line eliminates the
> permissibility of using the bus completely.

So this cannot be true.  By the terms of his heter itself there is at 
least one shul along the route, so why should there not be an eruv, or 
multiple eruvin?


Speaking of which, I think we discussed a while ago Rabbenu Yeshaya di 
Trani's practice of using the gondolas in Venice on Shabbos, and the 
discomfort many later rishonim felt about it, while nobody but Maharam 
MeRutenberg was willing to say he was wrong.

But I've never understood how he did it without paying.  Does anyone 
know?  Were the Venetian gondolas a public service, paid for by 
municipal taxes?  Or was it perhaps a subscription service, and the 
gondoliers recognized Rabbenu Yeshaya as a paid-up member?  I'm just 
guessing here.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy summer
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

Does anybody know why/how/etc it came to be that the order of the 15
brochos (starting with "nasan sechvi...") came to be so different between
Ashkenaz and Sefardi practice?

Thanks,

-- Sholom
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On Sun, Jun 07, 2020 at 09:20:41PM -0400, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
> Does anybody know why/how/etc it came to be that the order of the 15
> brochos (starting with "nasan sechvi...") came to be so different between
> Ashkenaz and Sefardi practice?

Sepharadim say the "shelo asanis" at the end, because they want to start
the day thanking Hashem for each of the steps of waking up.

Ashkenazim start by thanking Hashem for being who they are (in terms of our
role in asiyas hamitzvos) when waking up.

These are two differen gemaros, so there is nothing compelling saying one
set of berakhos before the other. If you say "shelo asni" first, thoght,
it's never really first because first we have to acknowlege the very binah
that makes berakhos possible. So, "hanosein lasekhvi", then "shelo asani"
then the rest of birkhos hashachar.

There is a less noticable difference about whether to say hameichin
mitz'adei gaver (Ashk) / gever (Seph) before or after she'asah
li kol tzorkhi. In Berakhos 60b the order is mitz'adei gaver/gever
first. Assuming you first take your first step, then put on your shoes
(kol tzorkhi).

Sidenote: it's interesting that even today, shoelessness is embelematic
of being so poor so as to not have one's basic needs met.

As a reminder, though, that the gemara isn't giving an order in order to
have an order. Because the gemara is before these are brought into the
siddur, and each berakhah is said "when you do X, say Y". So it could
simply be that different cultural norms about how to start the day would
lead to minor sequence changes once the sequence does get cannonized.



Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life isn't about finding yourself
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   Life is about creating yourself.
Author: Widen Your Tent                   - Bernard Shaw
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

And that is how the Rambam paskens.

A nafka mina being, how can we say Shelo Asani Aved today?

On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 at 20:43, Micha Berger via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

>  and each berakhah is said "when you do X, say Y".
>
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On Mon, Jun 08, 2020 at 09:31:46PM +0100, allan.en...@gmail.com wrote:
> And that is how the Rambam paskens.
> A nafka mina being, how can we say Shelo Asani Aved today?

First I thought of the countries where slavery is still going on, and
thinking of modifying your question to "in our time and place".

But then I realized that "aved" (or "eved", for our Sepharadi
participants) refers specifically to an eved kenaani owned by a
Jew. Someone who has more mitzvos than those covered by "shelo adani goy /
nakhri / nakhriah".

But in any case, when we were born is part of Hashem's choice of how to
create us. I could have been placed in an eved kenaani's body of 3,000
years ago, had Hashem "Thought" it appropriate. So why not the berakhah?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Nearly all men can stand adversity,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   but if you want to test a man's character,
Author: Widen Your Tent      give him power.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                    -Abraham Lincoln


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