Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 7

Tue, 28 Jan 2020

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:45:28 -0500
Re: [Avodah] ToChaCha

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 09:55:44PM +0000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until
> that standard is met the duty remains.
> We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to
> many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's
> the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds
> are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts
> to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to
> succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which
> Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times.

I asked a related question, as these two standards seem different ot me
as well. "As long as they'll listen" is a way lower bar than "until they'll
slap you" (and it may well be ad ve'ad bikhlal).

So, this is where my head is, after thinking about it on my own without
the help of finding sources.

The mitzvah of tokhachah is until it causes sin'ah. After all, that's the
    Lo sisna es achikha bilvavekha
    hokheiach tokhiach es amisekha
    velo savo alav cheit.

(The Chizquni ad loc says the primary mitzvah of tokhachah is clearing the
air after you feel you were wronged by someone. Thus avoiding sin'ah for
how you perceive what they did to you.)

However, before you reach that standard, tokhachah can be dechuyah. So,
the mitzvah still exists, but the aveira of lifnei iveir of turning them
into meizidim means you can't do it.

But that's a practical concern. You have a chiyuv that you can't or don't
know how to do -- and as the gemara puts it, no one today knows how.

That's different than the standard at which you have done your duty,
even if unsuccessful in getting them to change. Maybe a witness or
someone who hears the story will be influenced.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 It's never too late
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   to become the person
Author: Widen Your Tent      you might have been.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                    - George Eliot

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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:48:14 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Using Bein adam leMakom to motivate bein adam

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 01:12:57AM +0000, Anthony Knopf via Avodah wrote:
> Rebbetzen Katz and Joseph Kaplan are right that there is much that the
> frum community can be proud of in its bein adam lechavero. This can't
> simply be attributed to its being a typical middle class religious
> community.
> I recommend in this regard, Jack Wertheimer's What You Don't Know About
> the Ultra-Orthodox -- Commentary. And I'd also recommend a couple of other
> articles: Values and Religiosity and Charitable Giving Among Britain's
> Jews. And see also this page from The Jewish Mind.
> With all that, I think Rabbi Berger and others have identified a
> genuine problem (and therefore a challenge)...

I see the link to the article didn't reach the list digest.
What You Don't Know About the Ultra Orthodox
is at <http://bit.ly/2OmwMeX> or

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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 17:20:15 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem?

On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 04:26:56PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/
>     Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia
>     By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com

The SA (OC 271:13; AhS s' 30) says that kiddush (when not the seder)
only requires melo lugmav. Which is equal to most of a revi'is, so
we're talking about 1.8 oz.

The MA says that lekhat-chilah, rov kos should be drunk.

HOWEVER, my father taught me something not in this article. That one
can fulfill the lekhat-chilah by pouring the cup to many people, so that
rov kos is drunk but no has to drink more than melo lugmav to do so.

Doable with whisky, but the meqadeish is drinking a double shot.

Back to wine, AhS says that beshe'as hadechaq -- like if you would be
left with nothing for day qiddush or havadalah -- you are yotzei with

Seems to me that gives the meiqilim room when dealing with shnapps which
"fills the mouth" with far less than rov of a revi'is.

The bigger problem is that in 472:9, using chamar medinah is described
as bedi'eved, when no wine is available. That's rare in our economy.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 We are great, and our foibles are great,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and therefore our troubles are great --
Author: Widen Your Tent      but our consolations will also be great.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Rabbi AY Kook

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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:35:55 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Interesting Equation

On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 08:52:08AM -0500, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote:
>> Nahum Sarna says: "The use of numerical symmetry...."

> One set of numbers that stands out to me is the shilush (see K'li Yaqar and
> loc.!) of 133-137-133 in the P'Vaeira yichus parasha.

To me shilush refers to the human condition.

When a cartoon character has a little angel anda little devil on each
shoulder, you get three variants of the character's face.

Humans are in dialectic -- there is the "I" sort of "watching" the
conflicting sides of the debate. "I" have to decide between my spiritual
side and my physical one. (Or whichever two sides are in conflict.)

The two conflicting sides plus the decider equals 3.

Thus, Echad E-lokeinu bashamayim uva'aretz.

Who gave us shenu luchos haberis -- structured as a dialectic. The
first 5 diberos are about how to receive (primarily Hashem's Good, but
kibud av va'eim is in the same image), and the second 5 how to give.
The dialectic is caused by the fact that the greatest Good Hashem can
give us is the chance for vehaalakhta bidrachav and to give to others.

The three avos now work the dialectic tension, as above.

Thus, as the KY says there (6:14), the Torah is an oraisa telisa'ah which
had to be given al yedei sheivet meshulash -- Levi having the tools to
balance Re'uvein's and Shim'on's excesses.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and he wants to sleep well that night too."
Author: Widen Your Tent            - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:53:07 -0500
Re: [Avodah] truth priority

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 04:13:09AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> A High School student causes a teacher to be fired with false testimony
> that only his parent can refute. The parent either (a) remains silent or
> (b)lies to protect the child or (c) tells the truth
> 2. What would a poseik say halacha requires or suggests?

Is it relevant that beis din wouldn't ask a qarov to testify, andif
they did, the testimony is void?

Li nir'eh:

We try to avoid putting parents in this moral dilemma.

And, when someone stuck in it does speak up, we do not assume we know
their psychology in that moment well enough to accept their eidus.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 We look forward to the time
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   when the power to love
Author: Widen Your Tent      will replace the love of power.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF              - William Ewart Gladstone


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