Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 5

Sun, 19 Jan 2020

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: <mco...@touchlogic.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 08:56:18 -0500
[Avodah] fyi. Rabbi Moshe Shapira


 At the lehavin.org website, one can find hundreds of Rav Shapira zatzal's
recorded shiurim on machshava spanning many different categories. The site
contains advanced search tools enabling users to find media through both
topics and keyword searches

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Message: 2
From: Joseph Kaplan
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:27:46 +0000
[Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein

I don?t usually say this ?, but I?m with Toby on this one. We (the Orthodox
community from far left to far right) are far from perfect. Far. But
there?s lots of BALC in our community in both word and deed. Lots. Sure we
can improve (who can?t), but, no, we don?t worship a God who is harsh,
brutal and vengeful rather than a God of love, and, no, we don?t ignore
BALC in the face of BALM. 

Sent from my iPhone

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Message: 3
From: Sholom Simon
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:19:56 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein

R'n TK writes:  "In which strain of Orthodoxy, in which shul or yeshiva or
seminary, do Jews have only five of the aseres hadibros, or a Mishna that
lacks Pirkei Avos, or a Yom Kippur vidui with all the bain adam lachavero
parts missing, or a Tanach with no Sefer Mishlei, or a library with no
Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzadikim or Chofetz Chaim?"

R Joel Rich cites Ralph Waldo Emerson: "Your actions speak so loudly, I can
not hear what you are saying."

Indeed, there is the rub.  We learn one thing, but how much do we
practice?  Mimeticism is extremely strong in these kinds of matters.

An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are
shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many
questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon
harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)?

When my kids were in elementary school, the school did a major school-wide
push on a program they obtained -- it was called "Project Derech" which had
all the teachers on the same page (in a daf yomi sort of way) regarding the
midda of the week, with a school assembly, discussion questions to bring
home to the shabbos table, and what-not.  It was a terrific program.  (I
have no idea how widespread that program is -- but it is truly awesome --
see https://projectderech.org/).  My kids, B"H, are still positively
effected by that program.  I vaguely recall R Gil Student mentioning it 15
years ago or so (IIRC)

-- Sholom
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Message: 4
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:55:44 +0000
[Avodah] ToChaCha

R' Joel asked: How [when] does one know when ToChaCha will be accepted?

But I believe that the correct question is - when does one know ToChaCha
will NOT be accepted?
Because we have Halacha that answers that Q and we must assert that until
that standard is met the duty remains.
We are exempted from this duty when the recipient slaps, or according to
many is ready to slap. In other words, one has a duty to clarify - that's
the true meaning of LeHoChiAch, to clarify to the sinner that their deeds
are wrong - and it's fairly certain that after a couple of hundred attempts
to get through, before the recipient is ready to slap, one is not likely to
succeed. And yet this Mitzvah is defined with a double instruction, which
Chazzal explain to mean, one must continue, even a thousand times.
 Then again, it's not just repeating the same old same old, the MoChiAch
must seek new methods to grab attention, as in telling a story about one
poor fellow who only had one sheep which the neighbour, who had thousands
of sheep, stole this one sheep etc.

The other exemption stated in RYona is where there recipient would not
listen to anyone even his father mother or Rebbe or Rosh Yeshivah etc So
the bar is set quite high. The duty is quite onerous.

In this regard we might consider that Yosef and his brothers never resolved
their issues. Rabbenu Bachya points to the Paytan who compiled the Piyut
for the Asarah Harugey Malchus, the 10 martyrs, who attributes this
horrible event to the betrayal of the 10 brothers. And it's worthy to
consider why Yosef didn't take the high road and forgive his brothers even
though they did not seek his forgiveness?
as RaMBaM states DeOs 6:9 If one does not want to rebuke whoever has caused
him grief or harm, because the sinner is HedYot BeYoser or DaAto
MeShubeshes, but within his heart forgives, and bears no hatred against
him, this is Midas Chassidus, pious conduct.

Now we ought to clarify why the RaMBaM qualifies his Midas Chassidus to
those two cases? Why is it not important to encourage everyone in all
circumstances to be a Chassid?

Perhaps it is because those who have harmed others actually need help and
even if they are forgiven for this particular event, the evil character
remains unchecked and unhealed. That is the responsibility of HToChiAch.
One cannot possibly be a Chassid if one takes no action to help another Yid
who has a flaw - and is perhaps the reason that Yosef was not Mochel. The
brothers needed - but failed to recognise their error and the shortcomings
that fed and fostered this terrible betrayal that stained our national
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 22:00:45 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
> An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are
> shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many
> questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon
> harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)?

Other illustrations:

1- My first grade classroom was decorated with posters by Torah UMesorah
of Torah, Avodah uGemilus Chassadim and of VeAhavta leRei'akha kaMokha.
And yet I left middle school with the message that my Judaism would be
measured by my ability to learn Shas, and some other stuff.

This illustration made me realize something.... The problem is more
pronounced on the men's side of the mechitzah. Not RnTK's. But even among
women... Whereas the Beis Yaakov type experience of my oldest daughter's
year was a very Chessed-centric Judaism, now seminaries increasingly
focus on Tzenius. Other-Focus to Self-focus.

3- In Litta, they would say "Frum is for the galach, a Jews must
be ehrlach." But today that talk of ehrlachkeit was eclipsed by
self-identifying as "frum".

Which is why someone who eats treif isn't frum; but somone who rips off
his customers "isn't really frum" -- something we remind ourselves. And
which one isn't given kibudim in shul?

3- Newspaper headlines.

Included in that is a lie in #1. I didn't leave middle school with that
impression, although most boys do.

And why didn't I? Because my yeshiva -- a school named for the founding
document of the mussar movement, no less! -- got my classmates to
participate in defrauding the government. We were served breakfast when
we usually don't get any, another school's younger grades were brought in
to pad the numbers, and even so 7th and 8th grades were led out the back
door and past the government's counter again. So, the school were getting
breakfasts despite not serving them, and meals for more children than
the school actually had. My classmates participated, I left in disgust.
So no, I didn't leave thinking BALC is a distant second. But I also know
I was the exception.

4- We speak of hashkafah in terms of Chasiddus's search for deveiqus vs
Litta's quest for temimus. In the Chassidishe model, Yahadus really is
about BALM, and BALC is a handmaiden to get you there.

And in Litta's model... How many people think of temimus in terms of
all of Torah being a means of being better at bein adam lachaveiro.
Whether we mean R' Chaim Volozhiner's nosei be'ol im chaveiro, R Shimon
Shkop's "leheitiv im hazulas", or REEDs goal of being a nosein. Or are
middos seen as an end in themselves?

5- When there is a BALC scandal, people try to motivate better behavior
by invoking chilul hasheim. "How can you cut people on line at the bus
terminal, it's a chilul Hashem (sic)!"

That in itself makes my point -- we need to bring Hashem into it to
motivate. Talking about stealing people's time, that it's wrong to cut
the line in and of itself, doesn't work.

And as long as we invoke chilul hashem, we might win the battle in the
short term (my recollection is pessimistic about this), but we cannot
win the war. Because until BALC becomes a priority, we lack the necessary
drive for these behaviors to become unthinkable.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 There's only one corner of the universe
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   you can be certain of improving,
Author: Widen Your Tent      and that's your own self.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF             - Aldous Huxley

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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:40:35 -0500
[Avodah] Tochachah until when?

So, on Eirukhin 17b, R' Yehudah says that if someone doesn't accept
your tokhachah, you need to keep at it ad sheyizof bo. Rav says ad
haka'ah. And this machloqes carries through to the Rambam (Dei'os 6)
who holds like Rav, and the Semag who holds like R Yehudah. The
AhS notes both shitos in OC 156:9

I don't get it. Later in the same se'if, the AhS records the Semag's
opinion that you don't give tokhachah that won't be headed, because
it will lead to his sin'ah and nothing else.

So, when does the Semag say you should stop -- when you realize they
aren't listening, or ad sheyiznof bo?

How do these two issues shtim together?

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger                 Every second is a totally new world,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and no moment is like any other.
Author: Widen Your Tent              - Rabbi Chaim Vital
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:42:58 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Using Bein Adam laMakom to Motivate Bein Adam

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 10:00:45PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 04:19:56PM -0500, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
>> An interesting exercise (I heard this in a shiur once): for those who are
>> shul rabbis here, or are close to a shul rabbi, ask them: how many
>> questions do they get on BALM (kashrus, shabbos, niddah) vs RALCh (lashon
>> harah, tochacha, tzedakah, even ribbis)?

> Other illustrations:

Here's something I hope is NOT an example, but my cynical side was

The gemara on BQ 38a explains the mishnah which says "shor shel Yisrael
shenagach shor shel Kenaani -- patur." The gemara says that since they
do not keep the 7 mitzvos, hitir memonam leYisrael".

There is a Shitah Mequbetzes on BQ 38a this (#1, d"h Re'eih sheva mitzvos)
which says (off-the-cuff translation of the full comment):
     Mashma that all who DO observer the 7 mitzvos, their law
     [neziqin? dinei mamonos in general? with regard to us is our law
     with regard to them. And now there is no need to speak about umos
     hagedoros bedarkei datos venimusim (Meiri z"t)

See a daf image at

It was edited out of the Oz veHadar edition, and therefore doesn't appear
in OvH including Mesivta, the OvH dafim used in Schottenstein editions,
nor even Sefaria (see
"No connections known for Shita Mekubetzet here.")!


Micha Berger                 I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   I awoke and found that life was duty.
Author: Widen Your Tent      I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Rabindranath Tagore

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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 19:53:29 -0500
[Avodah] Evidence for the identification of Mishkan Shilo

Times of Israel <http://bit.ly/2TDGFZ8> or

As Mosaic Magazine put it in their teaser (no link, because I am including
in full):
    Altar Horns, Ceramic Pomegranates, and Other Evidence of the Ancient
    Jewish Sanctuary at Shiloh
    Jan. 17 2020

    According to the Bible, the Tabernacle -- the portable shrine
    constructed by Moses that served as the precursor to the First Temple
    -- was placed in the city of Shiloh, and remained there for most of
    the time before the establishment of the monarchy. The archaeologist
    Scott Stripling has spent several years excavating Shiloh and has
    found evidence suggesting that the city was indeed a center of
    Israelite worship, including what appear to be the "horns" (square
    protrusions) of an altar and ceramic pomegranates. He discusses his
    findings and methods in conversation with Amanda Borschel-Dan. (Audio,
    33 minutes. Text is available at the link below.)



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Message: 9
From: Cantor Wolberg
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 15:53:49 -0500
[Avodah] Question

A colleague asked me the following question and I had
no answer.
If the ba?al kore is reading the Torah and either has a 
nose bleed or a finger cut which causes blood to transfer
to the Sefer Torah, what is the halachic response?

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Message: 10
From: Prof. L. Levine
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 16:26:56 +0000
[Avodah] Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem?

Please see https://vosizneias.com/2020/01/19/is-making-kiddush-on-schnapps-a-problem/
    Is Making Kiddush on Schnapps a Problem? -- Vos Iz Neia
    By Rabbi Yair Hoffman for 5tjt.com
    It can be called the Great "Schnapps vs. Wine" Wars. "Well, my father,
    and his father, had this minhag from Europe!" "Yes, but the Mishna
    Brurah, holds that -- " "I don't care what the Mishna Brurah says --
    that was written for those people without a family minhag!" These


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