Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 29

Fri, 12 Apr 2019

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Mandel, Seth
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 17:48:34 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] [Mesorah] Fwd: Chad Gadya


From: Danny Levy <danest...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2019 1:27 PM
> May I take this opportunity to ask another question about Aramaic dikduk?
> In Kaddish, ul'olmei olmaya and da'amiran b'olma, do they have kamatz
> gadol and therefore shva na, or kamatz katan and therefore shva nach,
> or is Aramaic dikduk different from Hebrew and therefore "therefore"
> is incorrect?

Therefore is not correct. 'olmo in Aramaic have a qomatz in both places,
from the time of the book of Daniel at least. At that time the R'DaQ
had not been born.

Aramaic had qomatz and patach. How you pronounce them is your business,
but they were different Aramaic vowels. Neither one was more godol than
the other; two different Aramaic vowels.

The R'DaQ invented theories about the qamatz gadol, qatan, for Hebrew. The
evidence from the Masorah is that he was incorrect in his theories. But
assuming he was correct, he spoke about Hebrew grammar, not about Aramaic.

So: was the sh'wa in Aramaic 'ol'mo pronounced or not there at all?

The answer to the question phrased that way is the same answer to the
question posed by the famous poem Antigonish, :

Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today

If you claim it is a vowel, then it is there. But is really there? Is
it really a vowel? In the Babylonian punctuation, including of Sefer
Doniel, there is nothing there. In Tiberinan punctuation, the lack of
anything indicates that the consonant is not pronounced, so they wrote
a sh'wa. Was it every pronounced? Very doubtful.

R. Mazuz, if you are looking for a current day rov who understood the
issues, claims that the rules of the R'DaQ for Hebrew sh'wa and qomatz
do not apply at all in Aramaic, and so it is not pronounced.

This is actually relevant to Pesach, although one level removed! Chometz
on Pesach is like the man who wasn't there in Antigonish. In the houses
of most Ashk'naz Jews, it is there in the house, but it is not "there
in the house."

So chometz is the sh'wa of the Jewish yomim tovim, or, more exactly, it
is the man in Antigonish. And, so you see, orginally from Nova Scotia,
where Antigonish is a town where the man who wasn't there wasn't from.

Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel

{Dedicated to R. David Bannett}



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Message: 2
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 23:15:37 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Exactly when did we leave Mitzrayim?


(In this post, I presume that "Eretz Mitzrayim" and "Mitzrayim" are
synonymous. If anyone disagrees, please speak up.)

Where is the border of Mitzrayim? On exactly which day (hour? minute?) did
we "leave Mitzrayim"? On 16 Nisan, were we already out of Mitzrayim, or
were we still in the process of leaving?

I have been bothered by the very end of Magid, when we expound on the
50/200/250 nisim that occurred at the Yam Suf. And this is followed by
Dayenu, where we thank Hashem for many things, most of which occurred after
the 15th of Nisan.

Rambam Chometz Umatzah 7:1 explains the parameters of Sippur Yetzias
Mitzrayim: <<< There is a positive mitzva of the Torah to tell of the
miracles and wonders that were done for our ancestors in Mitzrayim on the
night of the 15th of Nisan, as it is said, "Remember this day, on which you
went out from Mitzrayim" >>> (Shemos 13:3)

I note his emphasis on the events of one specific day. The pesukim before
and after are perhaps even more explicit:

Shemos 12:51 - "It was on that very day - Hashem took the Bnei Yisrael out
of Eretz Mitzrayim with their legions."

Shemos 13:4 - "Today you are going out, in the month of Aviv."

The pesukim seem clear, that we went out on one specific day, namely 15
Nisan, and that by the 16th we were already out of Mitzrayim. Granted, we
were still in danger, because Paro could have caught up to us, and did in
fact try to do so. But that occurred AFTER we had already left.

And I think it very significant that the text of Rambam?s Haggada skips the
paragraphs about the Yam Suf, and Dayenu as well, going directly from the
Ten Plagues to Rabban Gamliel?s explanations of The Three Things.
Apparently, Rambam considered the events of the Yam Suf (and later) to be
extraneous, off-topic, and not part of Sippur Yetzias Mitzrayim.

But *we* do include those sections. It seems that we disagree with the
Rambam; we do consider these sections to be part of Sippur Yetzias
Mitzrayim. What is our basis for this? Even if some archeologist (or
midrash) would say that the political borders of Mitzrayim extended all the
way to the shore of the Yam Suf, we must still deal with the words of the
Torah; and I am persuaded by the Rambam's words, that in the context of
Sippur Yetzias Mitzrayim, the Torah wants us to tell about what happened on
one specific day, 15 Nisan.

This would include the prologue, of course. The story would not make any
sense if we didn't elaborate on the years leading up to this climactic
event. Stories of the slavery and of the makkos are critical; you can't
tell about the Exodus if you don't tell what we were Exiting from.

But Maggid could have ended there. Why do we include an afterword? Is it
really critical that the story of the Exodus has to also tell of the
Destination? Wasn't it enough that we got out? Needless to say, yes,
indeed, it *would* have been enough! But we say it anyway. And I'm
wondering if anyone writes about *why*.

Akiva Miller
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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 05:37:05 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] [Mesorah] Fwd: Chad Gadya


On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 10:48:22AM +0300, Ira L. Jacobson via Avodah wrote:
: In Hebrew, the singular of dibrot, as in aseret hadibrot, is dibber.

Although in biblical Hebrew, it's aseres hadevarim, not "-os".

:-)BBii!
-Micha



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Message: 4
From: Ira L. Jacobson
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 13:14:04 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] [Mesorah] Fwd: Chad Gadya


At 05:37 12-04-19  -0400, Micha Berger stated the following:

>On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 10:48:22AM +0300, Ira L. Jacobson via Avodah wrote:
>: In Hebrew, the singular of dibrot, as in aseret hadibrot, is dibber.
>
>Although in biblical Hebrew, it's aseres hadevarim, not "-os".

Of course; that makes its gender even more 
obvious.  However, that is not relevant to the 
original discussion, relating to the word dibber, 
as in "even though Dibra/Dibrot and Mida/Midot 
are female."  [One is; one is not.]


~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=
IRA L. JACOBSON
=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~
mailto: la...@ieee.org

----------------------
?There is only one way to avoid criticism:
do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing.?
? Aristotle
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 05:34:02 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Making Gebrokts This Year


On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 07:01:25PM +0000, Shlomo Gertzulin via Avodah wrote:
: I believe that in years like this one, they only prepare the gebrocks
: food on the seventh day which is Friday but don't actually eat it until
: Friday night or Shabbos. I'm not aware of anyone who doesn't eat gebrocks
: who actually eats it this year on the 7th Day.

With geborchts, the minhag is based on a fear that one might end up with
actual chameitz. The odds are small enough that for halakhah the risk
is ignorible. But on the level of minhag, and when chameitz is assur
deOraisa...

So why aren't you worried about bal yeira'eh as much as akhilah? If you
can't eat gebrochts for 7 days, how can you own it?

Is it akhlah's issur qareis? Or is it that there is damage done al pi
qabbalah when eating that isn't done when owning? (And are those two
possibilities really seperable?)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For a mitzvah is a lamp,
mi...@aishdas.org        And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 6
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 05:56:14 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Making Gebrokts This Year


.
R' Yitzchok Levine asked:

> Many of those who do not eat Gebrokts make Gebrokts and eat it
> on the last day of Pesach. However, this year the last day of
> Pesach is on Shabbos, so one cannot make Gebrokts on the last
> day this year.
>
> I know for a fact that there are those who make Gebrokts this
> year on the Seventh day of Pesach. To me this is hard to understand.
> If Gebrokts is a problem during the first 7 days of Pesach, then how
> can one make Gebrokts this year on the Seventh Day?

Here's the logic:
What's wrong with gebrokts? It might be chometz.
What's wrong with chometz? It's an issur karays!
Really? Always?
No, only if you eat it. No karays for just owning it.

So I believe that they are being machmir to avoid eating gebrokts on the
first 7 days, but not on the 8th day. And merely owning gebrokts is not a
problem even on the first 7 days.

(I am not intimately familiar with the ins and outs of gebroks, and what I
have written is merely my guess. If someone would tell me that these people
would not even own gebrokts on the first 6 days and make an exception only
on the 7th, my guess would be that this is not intrinsically related to
chometz, but is merely a protective measure, to avoid the temptation of
having edible gebrokts around the house.)

If anyone is surprised by my suggestion that someone would be machmir
against eating chometz, and meikil on owning it, let me point out that this
is exactly how Chazal designed the fifth hour of Erev Pesach morning.

Akiva Miller
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Message: 7
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 13:46:12 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] What is the origin of the custom of not eating


From yesterday's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. What is the origin of the custom of not eating gebrochts (matzah dipped in water)?



A. The Shulchan Aruch (OC 463:3) rules that flour made from roasted wheat
kernels may not be mixed with water on Pesach. Even though wheat that is
fully roasted cannot become chometz, we are concerned that perhaps some
kernels were not properly roasted, and subsequently, the flour might become
chometz when mixed with water.

The same concern applies to matzah with flour on its surface. It is
forbidden to mix such matzah with water because the flour may not be fully
baked and would be susceptible to becoming chometz (MB 463:8).

Where there is no perceptible flour in or on the matzah, is there a concern
that some of the dough may not have been thoroughly mixed, and within the
matzah there may be raw flour that was not fully baked? There are two
different customs; Mishnah Berurah (458:4) notes that there are anshei
ma?aseh, scrupulous individuals, who act stringently and do not allow
matzah to come in contact with water, as perhaps it may contain unbaked
flour. Many Chassidim have this custom. However, Mishnah Berurah (ibid.,
citing Shaarei Teshuva 460) maintains that this stringency is not
halachicaly mandated, since there is no evidence of raw flour in matzah. In
addition, our matzos are thin-like crackers, and it is highly unlikely they
will contain flour. This was the opinion of Chazon Ish (OC 121:19) as well.
Shaarei Teshuva, (OC 460:10) notes that both groups, are meritorious. Those
who do not eat gebrochts are motivated by yiras shomayim (fear of heaven),
lest they inadvertently transgress the laws of 
 Pesach. The ones who are lenient are concerned that not eating gebrochts
 will limit their simchas (joy of) Yom Tov. Shaarei Teshuva concludes:
 ?Both groups are pursuing paths for the sake of Heaven, and I declare: And
 Your people are entirely righteous (Yeshaya 60:21).?


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Message: 8
From: Zev Sero
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 10:16:21 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] [Mesorah] Chad Gadya


On 11/4/19 11:35 am, Mandel, Seth via Avodah wrote:

 > No Hebew speaker would say "ishti yavo hayom."

I have seen it often in written Ivrit.   Even worse and much more often 
I've seen "ani yavo".  And this is by native speakers.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper



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Message: 9
From: Zev Sero
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 10:22:04 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Making Gebrokts This Year


On 12/4/19 5:34 am, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> So why aren't you worried about bal yeira'eh as much as akhilah? If you
> can't eat gebrochts for 7 days, how can you own it?
> 
> Is it akhlah's issur qareis? Or is it that there is damage done al pi
> qabbalah when eating that isn't done when owning? (And are those two
> possibilities really seperable?)

Also consider that even if a speck of chametz does form it will be less 
than a kezayis, and therefore not chashuv, so there will be no bal 
yeira'eh, but eating it would still be an issur d'oraisa.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper


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