Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 37

Sat, 07 Apr 2018

• 1. Re: Kintiyot derivatives (Micha Berger)
• 2. Two Rabbis and Tefillin (Professor L. Levine)
• 3. Re: Two Rabbis and Tefillin (Mandel, Seth)
• 4. Re: Two Rabbis and Tefillin (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Re: Two Rabbis and Tefillin (Mandel, Seth)
• 6. Re: Two Rabbis and Tefillin (Ben Waxman)
• 7. Kneidlach - what the ShA HaRav actually says (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)

On Mon, Apr 02, 2018 at 06:12:23AM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
: On 3/27/2018 5:32 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
:> I think there aren't, for Arevimishe reasons. A hekhsher can't split the
:> lines to fine, or it becomes unusable...
:> The hekhsher system creates least-common-denominator norms like that
:> in a number of ways.

: I was thinking about this. I thought of two exceptions...

I think what I said is really particular to the US, or maybe chu"l as
a whole. Where people who keep kosher will suffer with less, and people
who don't won't care what has a hekhsher and what doesn't. Few people
will make a less observant choice if an Amerucan hekhsher chooses to be
more machmir than their own minhagim require.

Non-Mehardin rabbanut has a strong motive away from least common
denominator. They have a responsibility to a large population that will
buy with a hekhsher IFF and only if the sacrifice is not too onerous.

: 1) Some chocolates state that they are kosher for everyone, but that
: they contain lecithin? (leftit). I consider this the exception that
: proves the rule because so many poskim consider it to be OK in any
: case that stating that a chocolate contain lecithin is basically
: stating that it contains a non-kitniyot product.

I recall the marshmallows sold in the US with a long explanation as
to why the mei qitniyos they contain are a non-issue. Tha candy with a
teshuvah on every wrapper. (Even better than Laffy Taffy or Bazooka
Joe!) Unfortunately, they all have the same one.

Pretty much the same thing. But didn't work in the US in the long
run, as the rightward drift continued.

:-)||ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 3rd day
mi...@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Chesed: What is perfectly
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            balanced Chesed?

One rabbi who has a shul in Flatbush told me that while his minhag is to
put on tefillin during Chol Moed,  he does this privately,  since the
minhag of his shul is not to put on tefillin during Chol Moed.


Yesterday I davened in a shul where the minhag is to put on tefillin during
Chol Moed.  Much to my surprise the rabbi of the shul was sitting up front
without wearing tefillin.  When I asked his brother,  who does put on
tefillin during Chol Moed, about this,	he told that the rabbi put on
tefillin during Chol Moed until he married. "Our minhag is to put on
tefillin during Chol Moed," he said.


My understanding is that in a shul where the minhag is to not wear tefillin
during Chol Moed,  one who does wear them should not wear them in such a
shul.  On the other hand, in a shul wear the minhag is to put on tefillin
during Chol Moed,  one who does not put on tefillin should not display this
publicly.  I was told that in Rabbi Heineman's shul in Baltimore,  those
who do not put on tefillin during Chol Moed daven in the ladies section.

Thus I do not understand how the rabbi of the shul that I davened in yesterday could sit up front facing everyone without wearing tefillin.


YL
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From: Professor L. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2018 12:58 AM
> My understanding is that in a shul where the minhag is to not wear
> tefillin during Chol Moed, one who does wear them should not wear them
> in such a shul. On the other hand, in a shul wear the minhag is to put
> on tefillin during Chol Moed, one who does not put on tefillin should
> not display this publicly. I was told that in Rabbi Heineman's shul in
> Baltimore, those who do not put on tefillin during Chol Moed daven in
> the ladies section.

This was true in Europe, where there was such a thing as 'mnhag hamokom."

But in America, most shuls are composed of people from Lita, from
Poland, from Hungary, from Galicia, and from Germany, all of whom came
from different places with different minhogim. According to halokho,
what the acharonim say about wearing t'fillin or not halakhically does
not apply here.

Quoting the Mishna Brurah is not an excuse. He was from Lita, where
there was a mnhag hamokom.

Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
Rabbinic Coordinator
The Orthodox Union

At 09:28 AM 4/4/2018, Mandel, Seth wrote:
>This was true in Europe, where there was such a thing as 'mnhag hamokom."

>But in America, most shuls are composed of people from Lita, from 
>Poland, from Hungary, from Galicia, and from Germany, all of whom 
>came from different places with different minhogim....

>Quoting the Mishna Brurah is not an excuse.  He was from Lita, where 
>there was a mnhag hamokom.

If Rabbi Heineman in Baltimore can insist that anyone who does not 
wear tefillin during Chol Moed has to daven Shachris in the Ladies 
Section than this shul which says that the minhag of the shul  is to 
wear tefillin can send all of the non-tefillin wearers up to the 
Ladies Section

From: Prof. Levine <larry62...@optonline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2018 10:44 AM
> If Rabbi Heineman in Baltimore can insist that anyone who does not wear
> tefillin during Chol Moed has to daven Shachris in the Ladies Section
> than this shul which says that the minhag of the shul is to wear tefillin
> can send all of the non-tefillin wearers up to the Ladies Section

Any shul has the right to set up its own rules, and anyone who davens
there has to follow its rules. That is also halokho. Even if they were
to make a rule, for instance, that one must wear green on Chanukka.
Or that the shul must say the prayer for the State of Israel.

But to claim that it is halokho that in America people who daven
with t'fillin may not daven together with people who do not is wrong.
There is no such halokho in America.

Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
Rabbinic Coordinator
The Orthodox Union

On 4/4/2018 6:58 AM, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>
> One rabbi who has a shul in Flatbush told me that while his minhag is 
> to put on tefillin during Chol Moed,? he does this privately,? since 
> the minhag of his shul is not to put on tefillin during Chol Moed.
>
>
> Yesterday I davened in a shul where the minhag is to put on tefillin 
> during Chol Moed. Much to my surprise the rabbi of the shul was 
> sitting up front without wearing tefillin.? When I asked his brother . 
> . . . .
>

Wouldn't the rav in question be the proper person to ask?
 ?Ben


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The ShA HaRav does not initiate this ban on Gebrochts as his own,
rather he bases himself upon the propositions of Poskim which we are now
exploring, and it seems that they actually do not support the proposition
to create a ban against Gebrochts.


A]  The observation made by the ShA HaRav, which is central to his
anti-Gebrochts argument - is un-supported.
Our Poskim and our personal experience, has verified that there is no such
thing as flour being found on the surface of baked Matza.

B]  The ShA HaRav does not issue his own assessment [other than observing
flour on the surface of baked Matza] but relies upon other Poskim to
support the proposition that flour remains within the finished Matza.
However, no such thing is found in the Poskim, other than in situations
where flour is added to a dough which is ALREADY formed. No Posek ever
suggested that a normal dough may not be thoroughly kneaded leaving flour
in the finished product. And the ShA HaRav admits this by saying that
nowadays the dough is made very hard, dry, with very little water i.e. it
is not surprising that Poskim have not discussed this as it is a concern
that is due only to this recent change. But no other Poskim from his time
endorsed the reasoning that flour is found on the surface of baked Matza
etc.

C]  it is surprising to hear a devoted Chabadnik suggesting that the
footnotes found in the KeHos, the official Chabad publishers' publication
- are completely irrelevant to the Teshuvah.

There are 2 versions to understanding note 33 on the link provided
=  here is the gobbledigook version - "it brings to the reader's attention,
for his better understanding, a similar concern that is recorded in earlier
times, in specific circumstances, from which one can easily understand why
this current concern should lead to these conclusions"
= here is the plain speak version - "this is the best we can find to
support the proposition" which is, however which way you turn it, no
support at all for this new concern of flour remaining within the baked
Matza.

One can hardly but suspect that the footnote was added because the Taz and
MaAv that the ShA HaRav next refers to, is no support at all for banning
Gebrochts, because their observations are exclusively applicable to thick
soft Matzos that were under suspicion of having had flour added to the
dough during its kneading - and as we mentioned - this had already been
comprehensively stamped out by the times of the ShA HaRav. Remember, they
were kneading soft dough for soft Matza and it was quite likely that the
dough may have been a little too loose and one would be tempted to add more
flour to it.

So there we have it - if you dont wish to eat Gebrochts because your
parents etc did not - then enjoy Pesach [if Pesach can be enjoyed w/o
Kneidlach] but if you are concerned about Halacha - then eat Kneidlach and
enjoy Pesach


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