Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 15

Tue, 30 Jan 2018

• 1. Re: Segulos (was Parashas Ha'mon - A Segulah for Paranassah!) (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Segulos (was Parashas Ha'mon - A Segulah for Paranassah!) (Ben Waxman)
• 3. Re: Segulos (was Parashas Ha'mon - A Segulah for Paranassah!) (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Segulos (was Parashas Ha'mon - A Segulah for Paranassah!) (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Re: Chalav Yisrael: Required or recommended (Akiva Miller)
• 6. Tu B'Shevat, Order Of Brachos (Professor L. Levine)
• 7. Re: Segulos (was Parashas Ha'mon - A Segulah for Paranassah!) (Professor L. Levine)
• 8. Re: Segulos (was Parashas Ha'mon - A Segulah for Paranassah!) (Ben Waxman)
• 9. Re: Segulos (was Parashas Ha'mon - A Segulah for Paranassah!) (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Chalav Yisrael: Required or recommended (Simon Montagu)
• 11. Haetz and Shehecheyanu (Akiva Miller)

On 28/01/18 11:25, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>> In addition, why would anyone think that his or her Yahadut is the
>> standard (normative) Yahadut? Everything else is somehow strange,
>> requires an apology, second best?

> We are talking about segulos and if they are a normative part of
> Yahadus. Here is what Rav Shimon Schwab had to say about segulos.

And immediately you provide another example of exactly the point RBW was 
making.  Since when was R Schwab the posek of all Judaism; why is his 
opinion more authoritative than that of, say, the Rimanover who 
originated the segulah we were originally discussing?  How can you cite 
him in order to rule anyone with a different opinion out of Judaism? 
This narrow doctrine you are preaching seems not to be Judaism but 
Puritanism.


[Email #2. -micha]

On 28/01/18 12:52, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> On 1/28/2018 6:25 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
>> We are talking about segulos and if they are a normative part of 
>> Yahadus.?? Here is what Rav Shimon Schwab had to say about segulos. 
>> (From https://goo.gl/fZVeKm The Kishke segulah Part II)

> I understand and respect people who hold on to their minhagim. However, 
> if other chose to change, az mah?? This claim of "this isn't the Judaism 
> that I grew up with" is true but irrelevant.

It's not just those who choose to change that RYL has a problem with; 
it's also those whose *are* holding on to their minhagim, which happen 
to be different from those he grew up with.  He seems to expect them to 
abandon their minhagim and choose his.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On 1/28/2018 8:14 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Don't rabbonim who paskin shailos decide for others "what they should 
> or should not do"?

> Is Yahadus in your opinion something like a Chinese menu in which you 
> pick and choose what you will have?

The MO, the DL, the Chardal, the Litvak, the Sefardi, and the Chassidic 
communities all have great rabbanim. People consult with their rabbis 
about their choices and questions (or not). The Yekke community in New 
York doesn't have a monopoly on rabbanim. Frankly, I don't understand 
the question.

Ben

On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 09:17:22PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
: The MO, the DL, the Chardal, the Litvak, the Sefardi, and the
: Chassidic communities all have great rabbanim...

Although the classic Litvish attitude to segulos would have been
to invoke "tamim tihyeh im E-lokekha". However, the yeshiva velt
has assimilated much of the chassidishe attitude toward these
things.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

At 12:52 PM 1/28/2018, Ben Waxman wrote:
>I understand and respect people who hold on to their minhagim. 
>However, if other chose to change, az mah?  This claim of "this 
>isn't the Judaism that I grew up with" is true but irrelevant. No 
>one decides for someone else what they should or should or shouldn't 
>be doing.  The Yahadut that I teach my daughter isn't what you teach 
>your kids and if you were to tell me "well that isn't what I grew up 
>with" I'd answer "You're absolutely right".

Don't rabbonim who paskin shailos decide for others "what they should 
or should not do"?

Is Yahadus in your opinion something like a Chinese menu in which you 
pick and choose what you will have?

YL

.

R' Zev Sero wrote:

> The Chasam Sofer says that on the contrary, davka in our
> circumstances Chazal decreed an issur on chaleiv nochri. The
> Radbaz/Pri Chodosh says this is a myth; there never was any
> such decree.  RMF emphatically holds like the CS.

and R' Micha Berger responded:

> Yes, but what's the nafqa mina? I STILL don't get what you're
> driving at.

Given that I have not learned any of these sources inside, perhaps I
should stay out of the discussion. But I would like to give a case
which might help illuminate the issues: eggs.

As I understand it, eggs have a great deal in common with milk: Eggs
are kosher if and only if the source animal was kosher, and this is
impossible to determine simply by looking at it. And yet, I never hear
of anyone nowadays who insists on a mashgiach to certify that his eggs
are from a kosher bird.

I'm just guessing, but perhaps the gezera on milk was never on "milk"
to begin with. Maybe it was a general law about foods where the
kashrus problems had risen to a certain level, and tamei eggs were
simply never sold on a level to warrant that gezera. If so, perhaps
there are poskim who rule that "USDA milk is in the egg category".

Akiva Miller

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. This Wednesday is Tu B'Shevat. There is a custom on Tu B'Shevat to eat
fruits, especially those from the seven species with which Eretz Yisroel
was blessed. Can you please review the order of the brachos?


A. If one has an assortment of fruit in front of them, one should say the
bracha of Borei Pri Ha'eitz on the most important fruit, and the bracha
will exempt the rest of the fruit that one will eat. Fruit from the seven
species are considered more important than other fruit. Among the seven
species olives are considered the most important, followed by dates,
grapes, figs and then pomegranates. If one has a whole fruit and a sliced
fruit of the same species, one should recite the bracha on the whole fruit,
but a sliced olive would come first before any other species even if it is
a whole fruit. If one does not have any fruit of the seven species, one
should recite the bracha on the fruit that they usually prefer. If one does
not have any preference, one should say the bracha on a whole fruit, if one
is available.

Therefore, the order of the brachos is as follows:

  *   Olives, dates, grapes, figs and then pomegranates
  *   The fruit that one usually prefers
  *   If one has a whole fruit, this comes before a pitted or sliced fruit of the same species.


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At 03:10 PM 1/28/2018, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 09:17:22PM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
>: The MO, the DL, the Chardal, the Litvak, the Sefardi, and the
>: Chassidic communities all have great rabbanim...

>Although the classic Litvish attitude to segulos would have been
>to invoke "tamim tihyeh im E-lokekha". However, the yeshiva velt
>has assimilated much of the chassidishe attitude toward these
>things.

You are correct.
See, they were correct when they warned against becoming assimilated 
if one left Europe for America. >:-}


[Email #2. -micha]

The following is an excerpt from an article
by Rabbi S. Binyomin Ginsberg   Dean, Torah Academy, Minneapolis, Minnesota
that is at  https://goo.gl/1ZdeXD

    My biggest concerns with segulos as of late are:

    * They are the basis for developing a lack of emunah.

    * They can get in the way of the performance of mitzvos.

    * They have the potential of cheapening Yiddishkeit.

    * They have the potential of minimizing our cognizance of the
      prescribed method for getting what we need or want - tefillah! Our
      mesorah for getting what we want is tefillah, because through
      tefillah we develop a relationship with Hashem. Unfortunately,
      we lose that opportunity with segulos.

    As was said before, the greatest risk we have with segulos is the
    potential confusion our children can experience. I think that we can
    help our children by sharing, at their level, the point made by the
    Ran about how segulos work. He compares segulos to medicine. He speaks
    about one difference between the two and one similarity they have. The
    Ran says that medicine works on a physical level, while segulos works on
    a meta-physical level. That is how they differ. They are alike in that
    just as there are no guarantees that medicine will work for all patients,
    so too with segulos. There are no guarantees that segulos will work.

See the above URL for more.

YL

Global village or many cases a real village where chassidim and litvaks 
live in the same apartment building. From my few trips to the US it 
seems that the Americans have kept their Ashkenazi minhagim better than 
their Israeli counterparts but they aren't immune.

Ben

On 1/28/2018 10:10 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> However, the yeshiva velt
> has assimilated much of the chassidishe attitude toward these
> things.

On 28/01/18 13:14, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> At 12:52 PM 1/28/2018, Ben Waxman wrote:
>> I understand and respect people who hold on to their minhagim.
>> However, if other chose to change, az mah?  This claim of "this
>> isn't the Judaism that I grew up with" is true but irrelevant. No
>> one decides for someone else what they should or should or shouldn't
>> be doing.  The Yahadut that I teach my daughter isn't what you teach
>> your kids and if you were to tell me "well that isn't what I grew up
>> with" I'd answer "You're absolutely right".
> 
> Don't rabbonim who paskin shailos decide for others "what they should
> or should not do"?

They pasken only what the person asking should do; they do not presume 
to dictate what every other Jew must do.


> Is Yahadus in your opinion something like a Chinese menu in which you
> pick and choose what you will have?

Actually Yahadus *is* often rather like a Chinese menu in that although 
there are many options available, you are constrained in which choices 
you may make; you can only have one item from each column.  All the 
other items on the menu are just as valid; they're just not available to 
you.

But in the matter of minhagim, generally Yahadus is not like a Chinese 
menu but like a normal a la carte menu, where you can choose whatever 
you like.  Social conventions may suggest that you stick to one 
selection from any category, and that you not mix options that appear to 
clash with each other, but you have every right to defy convention if 
you like, and your choices will be just as valid as anyone else's.

What is *not* Yahadus at all is pretending that only one corner of the 
menu is valid, and the rest of the menu doesn't exist.


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 8:40 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>
>
> It is the opinion of the Radbaz and Peri Chasah that chalav aku"m means
> milk that might have non-kosher adulteration. A standard application of
> safeiq deOraisa lechumera, simply that the case is milk of iffy provenance.
> So they do agre it's an absolute issur.
>
> And I am guessing -- although I asked the chevrah to check -- that the
> Radbaz's opinion is more common among Sepharadim than the Chasam Sofer's.
> Even among Ashkenazim, I don't think it's a clear minority.
>
> That guess has two aspects, as someone pointed out to me in private
> email:
> - textual: what do most Seph acharonim pasqen?
> - mimetic: what do most Seph kehillot do in practice?
>

I (the "someone" in the previous paragraph -- al tikra "someone" ela
"Simon") found a couple of sources that address both of these aspects:
Unfortunately they contradict each other, or more precisely are coming from
different places, both geographically and historically

Birkei Yosef by the Hida, YD 115 -- http://www.hebrewbooks.org/
pdfpager.aspx?req=7670&st=&pgnum=36
at the end of subsection 1, says that one should be mahmir anywhere where
there isn't a clear universal minhag lehakel, and says "this is common
practice (pash'ta hahoraa) in all areas of Turkey and Eretz HaTzvi (i.e.
throughout the Eastern Mediterranean/Ottoman Empire)

Mayyim Hayyim by R. Yossef Messas vol 2, OH 92 (I don't have online access
to this source, but I believe it's on Bar Ilan)
permits because: camels are not found in the cities of the Maghreb, only
among the Arabs in the deserts; camel's milk today is many times more
expensive than kosher milk; asses' milk and horse milk is also not found
today even for medical use, and anyway is easy to distinguish because it
has a different color, smell and taste which are perceptible even when
mixed with kosher milk. Furthermore, he adds, today the government enforces
regulation and fines people even for diluting milk with water, kal vahomer
for mixing it with less healthy kinds of milk.

Two points that are worth noting here:

The questioner already notes that nobody in Morocco avoids milk milked
without Jewish supervision, even in Haredi circles; he is asking for a
source for the heter, rather than a psak
RYM completely takes for granted the approach of the Radbaz/Peri Hadash,
and only concerns himself with establishing the metziut.

And another general point: I don't understand why everybody calls this the
shita of the Radbaz and/or the Peri Hadash as if it originated among the
aharonim. Both RHYDA and RYM quote it from the Tashbetz, who is a rishon,
about 100 years before gerush Sefarad.
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Today's Halacha Yomis from the OU says:

<<<<Mishna Berura (225:11) writes that when one needs to say both *Ha?eitz*
and *Shehechiyanu*, the proper procedure is to first say the *bracha* of
*Shehechiyanu*, followed by the *bracha* on the fruit, and then to take a
bite. This is not considered a *hefsek* (break) between the recitation of
the *Shehechiyanu* and eating the fruit because the *bracha* of
*Shehechiyanu* was instituted primarily to be said upon seeing the fruit.
Although the common practice is to delay saying the *bracha* until we eat
from it, still it is not a *hefsek*, since the *bracha* can really be said
on seeing the fruit.
Mishna Berura writes that alternatively, one can recite *Ha?eitz*, take a
bite and then after swallowing the first bite recite *Shehechiyanu*.
However it is best not to say *Shehechiyanu* immediately after *Ha?eitz*,
as this would cause a *hefsek* (break) between the recitation of the
*bracha* on the fruit and eating the fruit. >>>>

My question: Why is this different than the Shehecheyanu on YomTov? Using
the logic presented here, I would argue that Shehechaynu is a hefsek
between Hagafen and drinking the wine, and that it would be better to say
the Shehecheyanu BEFORE Kiddush, because, after all, it is being said on
the day, and not on the kiddush.

If kiddush can be used as a precedent for fruit, then it would be best to
say the Shehecheyanu after Haetz, because eating is when the major hanaah
occurs.

What difference is there between the two?

Akiva Miller
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