Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 11

Tue, 23 Jan 2018

• 1. Re: Chalav Yisrael: Required or Recommended? (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Re: Chalav Yisrael: Required or Recommended? (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Chalav Yisrael: Required or Recommended? (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Re: Chalav Yisrael: Required or Recommended? (Micha Berger)
• 5. The Purpose of Yahadus and Crime Statistics (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: New Cancer Treatment (Marty Bluke)
• 7. Re: New Cancer Treatment (Micha Berger)
• 8. Chalav Yisrael - Donkey Milk - its for donkeys (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 9. Re: Chalav Yisrael - Donkey Milk - its for donkeys (Zev Sero)
• 10. Rav Breuer' Position on Chalav Yisroel (Prof. Levine)
• 11. Re: Rav Breuer' Position on Chalav Yisroel (Micha Berger)

At 07:00 PM 1/21/2018, Micha Berger wrote:
>They had rabbanim who had
>    already ruled it was permissible, such as R' Dov Revel, R' Yisrael
>    Avraham Abba Krieger, (among other greats of early 20^th century
>    American Judaism whom time has forgotten because the huge waves of
>    post-War immigrants to the US never met them) R' Breuer, R' Moshe
>    Soloveitchik and his son R' JB Soloveitchik.

What is your basis for asserting that Rav Breur 
ruled that Chalav Stam was permissible?

Here is an excerpt from an article that I wrote 
about Rabbi Aryeh Leib Malin that will appear in two weeks in the JP.


Reb Leib, Reb Moshe and Chalav Akum

After WW II was over some of the Mir students who 
were in Shanghai came to America.  They found 
themselves living in a country were the level of 
Jewish observance was often very low. ?This was 
not a shock to the Mirrer talmidei chachamim, who 
knew the scourge of this European ?Enlightenment? 
- inspired progressive Judaism that sought to 
clothe non-Jewish ideologies in more-or-less 
Jewish garb. By contrast, the Mirrer talmidim 
held fast to the Tree of Life that was Torah through thick and thin.
?Yet they thought they had found other grounds to 
be shocked and concerned: In this environment of 
hefkeirus (in the spirit of ?anything goes?), the 
Mirrers found that even the small Torah-true 
Jewish community was drinking chalav akum (milk 
not supervised by a Jew at the time of milking), 
something that in Europe would have been totally 
unacceptable. They made inquiries regarding the 
situation and they were told, ?Our Rabbi, R? 
Moshe Feinstein, says this is permitted in America today.?

?The Mirrer scholars had not yet heard of the 
chashuve R' Moshe Feinstein, and the renowned 
Mashgiach, R? Yechezkel (Chatzkel) Levenstein, 
delegated one of the outstanding Torah scholars 
at the Mir, R? Leib Malin, to look into the 
matter. He phoned R? Moshe, who was at a bungalow 
colony, and a heated debate ensued, as R? Leib 
would not accede to R? Moshe's point of view.

?Finally, R? Moshe asked him, ?Have you heard of 
R? Yisrael Zeev Gustman, the dayan of Vilna??
?Yes, of course I have!? answered R' Leib, ?We 
were chavrusas in Grodno before I went to the 
Mir." And he added the usual adjunct of European 
Jews in 5706 when speaking of a Jewish person 
they had known before the war: ?Is he still 
alive?!?? ?He is indeed alive,? replied R? Moshe, 
?and he is right here in the bungalow colony. Do you trust his opinion??

??Certainly,? replied R? Leib, knowing that R? 
Gustman was also an admirer of R? Chatzkel. 
?Well, I have discussed this issue with him over 
the past few weeks, and R? Gustman agrees that 
the milk is kosher.? R? Moshe called R? Gustman 
over to speak with R' Leib by phone, and the 
great dayan explained R' Moshe's position: Under 
the prevailing conditions in the United States 
and since the milking met strict U.S. 
regulations, the milk was permitted despite not 
having Jewish supervision or milking. R? Leib 
accepted the ruling, and the matter was settled.?[i]



[i] Rav Gustman, by David Page, Mesorah Publications, 2017,  pages 121 ? 123.

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On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 05:36:37AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
: What is your basis for asserting that Rav Breur ruled that Chalav
: Stam was permissible?

Evidence is, R' Breuer (RMB) was in the "good chumerah" camp when it
came to chalav yisrael (CY).

While RMB made CY available in Manhattan, KAJ never was maqpid on CY as
a general norm. I was told by a number of products of KAJ, people who
are now yeshivish and maqpidim on CY themselves (which is why they're
living in Passaic), that this reflects R Breuer's own position.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             We look forward to the time
mi...@aishdas.org        when the power to love
http://www.aishdas.org   will replace the love of power.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                - William Ewart Gladstone

At 09:40 AM 1/22/2018, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 05:36:37AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
>: What is your basis for asserting that Rav Breur ruled that Chalav
>: Stam was permissible?
>
>Evidence is, R' Breuer (RMB) was in the "good chumerah" camp when it
>came to chalav yisrael (CY).

First of all, how does Rabbi Dr. Yosef Breuer, 
ZT"L,  come to be abbreviated as RMB?

I do not believe that this is accurate.

 From https://goo.gl/ur8iNi

TO THE EDITOR: (of Hamodia Magazine)

In the article ?Kashrus Thrives in America? in the
Parashas Re?eh/August 27 issue, Yitzchok Cohen writes: ?In those
years there were relatively few American Jews who were stringent
in their kashrus observance, and there were hardly any farms that
were willing to commit themselves to providing chalav Yisrael. After
great effort, the Tzehlimer Rav succeeded in producing the first
line of chalav Yisrael products in America. The line went by the
name ?Kahal,? and all the strictly observant Jews in America knew
that this was the only brand that was 100-percent kosher. The
Kahal company later became the J&J Dairy Co.?
There is something more to the story of the production of chalav
Yisrael in America. In 1882 Sholom Yitzchok (Isaac) and (Shifra)
Rivka Raskas immigrated from Kovno, Lithuania, to St. Louis to join
members of Mrs. Raskas?s family, the Sarasohns. They lived about
ten blocks from the Mississippi River. Isaac
started selling milk. After the turn of the
century, the family moved to 1313 North
Newstead, which at that time was still a
semi-rural area on the western fringe of St.
Louis, and began a small dairy that
eventually developed into a large company.
The Raskases were sincerely committed
Orthodox Jews. Pictures of their parents
show that they both came from learned
Litvishe families. They produced what was
probably the first commercially available
chalav Yisrael in America, long before the Tzehlimer Rav arrived
here.

Furthermore, one should not overlook the role that Harav Dr.
Yosef Breuer played in the production and distribution of chalav
Yisrael. In Rav Breuer: His Life and Legacy, we are told, ?Rav
Breuer was in the forefront of the efforts to make chalav Yisrael
milk products commercially available in the United States ? a
policy that was almost unheard of in America in the early 1940s.?
A footnote to this statement adds, ?The first commercially available
chalav Yisrael in America, Balsam Farms, under the supervision of
the Tzehlimer Rav, began production in the late 1930s. This milk
was not available in Manhattan due to lack of demand. In 1940
Rav Breuer arranged for it to be sold in Washington Heights, and
when Balsam could not keep up with the demand, made
arrangements for supervision of what became known as Kahal
Dairies. Later, J&J milk came under the Kehillah?s [KAJ?s]
supervision.?
Thus, the Tzehlimer Rav first supervised Balsam milk, not Kahal
milk, which came later. Also, it is clear from the information about
the Raskas dairy that Balsam Farms was not the first commercially
available chalav Yisrael in America.
PROFESSOR YITZCHOK LEVINE


>While RMB made CY available in Manhattan, KAJ never was maqpid on CY as
>a general norm. I was told by a number of products of KAJ, people who
>are now yeshivish and maqpidim on CY themselves (which is why they're
>living in Passaic), that this reflects R Breuer's own position.

As you can see from my letter to the editor of 
the Hamodia Magazine,  this does not seem to be accurate.


>Tir'u baTov!
>-Micha
>
>--
>Micha Berger             We look forward to the time
>mi...@aishdas.org        when the power to love
>http://www.aishdas.org   will replace the love of power.
>Fax: (270) 514-1507                - William Ewart Gladstone

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There is nothing in your self quote that shows that KAJ held that CY
was iqar hadin. And if you ask anyone from that community, there is no
norm of treating it as such.

If R' Breuer wanted it to be available, it was for people like himself
who were machmirim. Not because he held that CY was mandatory in the
American metzi'us. Or else his community would have been keeping CY
before their grandchildren sold out to yeshivishness.

Repeating the story again doesn't change the substance of my argument.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember;
mi...@aishdas.org        I do, then I understand." - Confucius
http://www.aishdas.org   "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites

On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 02:44:03PM +0200, R Efraim Yawitz replied to me on
Areivim:
: On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 11:14 PM,Micha Berger  wrote:
:> <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/WateringTheWeeds.pdf>

:> The context is addressing that very question for someone touched by abuse
:> themselves and is wondering whether the frequency of such things in our
:> community doesn't argue against the Torah's claims of being able to refine
:> its practitioners.

He asked:
: Is there some statistical evidence that this is more prevalent in "our"
: community?

First, I gave the context and target audience for a reason. What I
was trying to do in that piece was connect to someone whose faith in
Yahadus was shaken by abuse by a religious figure in their life --
parent, rebbe, whomever.

My point was to get the abused not to judge Yahadus by the culture
that allowed the abuser to thrive, and could very well still be making
excuses for him.

I did rewrite the thesis of that chapter in a positive tenor, as a
manifesto that appeared on Torah Musings
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/tools-and-goals>.
This particular argument was inappropriate to make in public if it is not
written to an audience already sold on the premise. Even though true,
why do I need to be the community's kateigor?


Second, I didn't say it was "more prevalent", but that one would need
statistics to see whether it was less prevalent. And that alone is a
problem. To quote more of what I wrote on Areivim:

:> The Torah is describing a uniqueness that should be self-evident
:> and obvious at first glance, without requiring a systematic study.

The Torah describes itself to be a means of producing better people.

There is a HUGE investment in time and effort (and money) to conform. So,
if a significant percentage of the O community is keeping the Torah as
Intended, shouldn't the difference in the demographics of that community
be self-evident, something to justify that investment?

How would you justify assuming the payoff is so much smaller than the
demanded investment? If the difference between those who follow sheqer --
the crime or volunteerism stats in a different religious commuunity of
a similar income profile -- aren't visibly worse, without needing formal
pollsters, than following the Emes, what exactly is Yahadus about?

Is it tenable to argue that Torah, if properly followed, is for the
person to be nif'al al pi pe'ulosav only in miniscule non-obvious ways?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The meaning of life is to find your gift.
mi...@aishdas.org        The purpose of life
http://www.aishdas.org   is to give it away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Pablo Picasso

On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 6:00 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> : If we apply these 2 opinions to IVF, according to the first answer since
> : kiddushin are not tofsin (since she is married) the child would be a
> mamzer
> : even though there was no bias issur....
>
> Can we extrapolate from "no bi'as issur" to no bi'ah?
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>

RHS does in that article.
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On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 09:58:08AM -0800, Marty Bluke wrote:
: On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 6:00 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
:>: If we apply these 2 opinions to IVF, according to the first answer since
:>: kiddushin are not tofsin (since she is married) the child would be a mamzer
:>: even though there was no bias issur....

:> Can we extrapolate from "no bi'as issur" to no bi'ah?

: RHS does in that article.

That answer would be fine lehalakhah, but not really for a discussion
forum. So, let me rephase:

    How does RHS reason it is valid to extrapolate from "no bi'as issur"
    to no bi'ah?

Either way, I really replied to get opinions on the chiddush that the two
shitos in Tosados were discussing whether Chakhamim limited mamzeirus to
relations that are an issur kareis (other than nidah), or whether they
limited it to relations between people for whom qedushin would not be
tofesin -- which for Jews means the relations would be an issur qareis
(same exception).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value,
mi...@aishdas.org        but by rubbing one stone against another,
http://www.aishdas.org   sparks of fire emerge. 
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz

It is important to know that milk even from a Gyshe dairy farm that has
non-Kosher milking animals, is Kosher by Torah law.

Chazal made their food decrees in order to build barriers to socially
isolate us Yidden from our Gyshe neighbours. The Kashrus aspects were in
the main, arguments to persuade us to accept them.

So it is more accurate to say that Chazal used the ikky value of possibile
adulteration with pig milk, to successfully promulgate Chalav Yisrael and
ensure it gained acceptance. And that is why Chazal did-not/could-not
include in that same decree a ban on cheese manufactured by the gy dairy
farmer. So we would pop over to Xtopher to monitor the milking and then
whilst on the way out we would ask him for a pound of his cheese. Not only
had the milk used to make the cheese not been monitored, it was made with
rennet from a non-Kosher species or a Neveilah animal - and yet it was
Kosher and Chazal did-not/could-not include it in the ChYisrael decree
because everyone knows that cheese cannot be made from milk of non-Kosher
animals and had Chazal tried to ban it, it likely would have failed as the
decree to ban oil processed by gyim failed - and it is interesting to note
that this oil was processed in the gys domestic kitchen, not a dedicated
factory as was the Pas Palter.

And now, we are supposed to ignore the Halacha that we mentioned earlier re
wine substituted for fruit beverages, because some new-fangled initiative
seeks to make a business of donkey milk which is rare and more importantly,
far more expensive.
The advertising is driven by
A] businesses trying to make money persuading people that
donkey/pig/hose/camel milk is superior - with some weird unsubstantiated
research that it closely resembles human milk, that it cures pimples,
flatulence etc. - and
B] those who are trying to promote Kosher and ChYisrael. Their hearts may
be in the right place, but that is about it.

The Kosher agencies HHUs present rubbish like this - Interesting fact about
donkey milk: It is the closest to human milk for nutritional values and
chemical features. It has less fats and more lactose than any other milk.
Cleopatra used to bathe in donkey milk to preserve her legendary beauty. it
is thought to boost the immune system and may be suitable for those who are
allergic to cow's milk.

We will even use the pope to promote ChYisrael - In 2014 Pierluigi Orunesu,
founder of Eurolactis, hit the news when he travelled to the Vatican to
present his products to Pope Francis, who revealed that he was fed donkey's
milk as a child growing up in Argentina.

And dont forget the ancient Greeks and Egyptians considered it an elixir,
and Cleopatra famously bathed in the stuff.

Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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On 22/01/18 20:00, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> And that is why Chazal did-not/could-not include in that same decree a 
> ban on cheese manufactured by the gy dairy farmer.

No, they made it a separate decree, so that even if the nochri made 
cheese with cholov yisroel it would *still* be forbidden.

> So we would pop over 
> to Xtopher to monitor the milking and then whilst on the way out we 
> would ask him for a pound of his cheese.

We certainly would not!

> Not only had the milk used to 
> make the cheese not been monitored, it was made with rennet from a 
> non-Kosher species or a Neveilah animal - and yet it was Kosher

On the contrary, if cheese is made with rennet derived from a neveila or 
treifa, let alone a temei'ah, it's forbidden even *without* the decree 
against gevinas akum, and indeed according to most rishonim this is the 
reason for the decree.



-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

Below is the response to a question I sent to someone who knew Rav
Breuer's positions on many halachic issues.  The person has asked not
to be quoted,  but I assure you that this person was very close to
Rav Breuer and knew his positions on many matters.

I wrote the following to this person:

Someone on an email list claimed that Rav Breuer held that drinking Chalav
Yisroel was a "good Chumra" and permitted the drinking of ordinary milk by
members of KAJ.

Is this true?

The response is

In response: R. Breuer held that it was halacha to drink Cholov Yisroel -
not a 'chumra.'

If one could not get cholov Yisroel - if on a trip, or it was not available
in one's neighborhood, then one could rely on R. Moshe Feinstein's
permitting non-cholov (stam).
I think you know that one of the first acts R. Breuer did for Kashrus was to
arrange for kosher milk for the members of his Kehilla. At that time
the only other kosher milk was
under the Tzelemer Rav.

Please do not quote me by name.
Thank you!

YL

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 01:24:36PM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
: Someone on an email list claimed that Rav Breuer held that drinking Chalav
: Yisroel was a "good Chumra" and permitted the drinking of ordinary milk by
: members of KAJ.
...
: In response:
:> R. Breuer held that it was halacha to drink Cholov Yisroel - not a
:> 'chumra.'
: 
:> If one could not get cholov Yisroel - if on a trip, or it was not available
:> in one's neighborhood, then one could rely on R. Moshe Feinstein's
:> permitting non-cholov (stam).

I think this snippet of the response is internally inconsistent.

One doesn't have to drink milk, especially for a duration as short as a
trip. So this isn't like a heter for a she'as hadechaq. If RYB really
held that CY was iqar hadin, how could he allow violating that din for
a trip?

As I said, his shitah was apparently that CY was a chumerah. Albeit one
very worth keeping. Which has not stopped being consistent with this now
thrice-cited story:

:> I think you know that one of the first acts R. Breuer did for Kashrus was to
:> arrange for kosher milk for the members of his Kehilla...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             There's only one corner of the universe
mi...@aishdas.org        you can be certain of improving,
http://www.aishdas.org   and that's your own self.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                 - Aldous Huxley


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