Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 130

Sun, 12 Nov 2017

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 07:57:26 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Torah precheit?


.

R' Micha Berger asked:

> Is there on some planet far away, an intelligent alien
> species with their Am haNivchar? How would the Torah be
> manifest to them? And if they didn't have a Migdal Bavel
> like event, did Hashem do that whole Mamlekhes Kohanim
> model, with castes within the alien Am haNivchar, or
> castes with everyone "nivchar"? Would they have a
> Holy Land?
>
> If we made contact with these creatures, would we
> recognize their perception of the Torah as another
> expression of Yahadus, or would it be too alien?

My focus is on the word "too" in the phrase "too alien". I feel that
while such beings would indeed be extremely alien to us, the degree of
alien-ness is absolutely irrelevant to the question at hand: Any
mashehu of alien-ness (I suspect) puts them outside the pale.

In our modern way of thinking, in which "Eretz" means not only this
planet but the entire physical universe, and in which "Shamayim" does
NOT include planets and stars but only the metaphysical universe, -
Why would martians have a different status than any other foreigners?

I can easily see a discussion of whether the martians count as people
or as animals, but that is a separate issue. The issue here is that if
they claimed to have some sort of Revelation from the One True G-d,
then would we accept it as being another facet of the Shiv'im Panim
LaTorah? And my answer is: What would we say if a group of earthly
*humans* claimed to have some sort of Revelation from the One True
G-d? Would we accept *that* as being another facet of the Shiv'im
Panim LaTorah?

My guess is that our response would be: That's very nice, and you are
a sincere group of righeous Bnei Noach... and then we'd pretty much
ignore them. Not out of malice, but because their message is not
directed towards us.

Here's a litmus test for whether or not I am close to correct: If I'm
not mistaken, when a person claims to be a Navi, there are specific
tests for whether or not he is believed, and if he passes those tests,
and he has a message from Hashem for us, then we are obligated to
follow that message. Is Jewishness among those criteria? If Ovadia had
not converted, would his nevua be any less true or any less
obligatory?

> If we made contact with these creatures, would we
> recognize their perception of the Torah as another
> expression of Yahadus, or would it be too alien?

I suppose one answer might be: The word "Yahadus" is too restrictive.
Try replacing it with "Ratzon Hashem".

Akiva Miller



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Message: 2
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 11:12:06 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Torah precheit?


On 08/11/17 07:57, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> I can easily see a discussion of whether the martians count as people
> or as animals, but that is a separate issue. The issue here is that if
> they claimed to have some sort of Revelation from the One True G-d,
> then would we accept it as being another facet of the Shiv'im Panim
> LaTorah? And my answer is: What would we say if a group of earthly
> *humans*  claimed to have some sort of Revelation from the One True
> G-d? Would we accept*that*  as being another facet of the Shiv'im
> Panim LaTorah?
> 
> My guess is that our response would be: That's very nice, and you are
> a sincere group of righeous Bnei Noach... and then we'd pretty much
> ignore them. Not out of malice, but because their message is not
> directed towards us.
> 

If all they claimed was to have once had a navi, whose nevuah didn't 
contradict our Torah in any way, then perhaps we might accept it as 
valid.  But if they were to claim to have had their own matan torah I 
think we would have to reject it.  It's fundamental to our faith that 
matan torah was an event that could only happen once.   It's also 
fundamental that Hashem chose avraham from *all* humanity, and us from 
*all* the nations, so if someone else -- on this planet or any other -- 
were to make such a claim we could not accept it.

as for how Hashem could leave them without a Torah to guide them, how 
are they different from any remote people who had no contact with anyone 
who had even heard of the Torah until the 19th or 20th century?   If the 
New Guinea Highlanders (some of whom have *still* never had any contact 
with the world outside their valleys) could wait until now to hear about 
the Torah, why can't the Tau Cetians, or whoever, wait until the 25th or 
30th century?  (assuming the 6000 years thing to be some sort of 
metaphor, of course, or there won't be a 30th century.)

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all



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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 16:59:13 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Torah precheit?


On Wed, Nov 08, 2017 at 07:57:26AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
:> If we made contact with these creatures, would we
:> recognize their perception of the Torah as another
:> expression of Yahadus, or would it be too alien?

: My focus is on the word "too" in the phrase "too alien". I feel that
: while such beings would indeed be extremely alien to us, the degree of
: alien-ness is absolutely irrelevant to the question at hand: Any
: mashehu of alien-ness (I suspect) puts them outside the pale.

Actually, when I said "too alien" I was thinking not of ways their
book of Retzon haBorei different from our Torah but ways in which
their existence is so different from ours that we can't event
compare.

It's one thing to discuss what hilkhos geirus might look like if they had
a hahaflagah but they already live in a liquid. It's another to discuss
what halakhah as a whole would look like if they didn't experience time
as a linear past-present-future the way we do.

This discussion also reminds me of my Issacharism thought experiment.
Positing that sheivet Yissachar survived, and had its own development
of halakhah since the fall of Malkhus Yisrael. Its own Sanhedrin,
no Anshei Keneses haGdfolah, etc... The same beris Sinai, but an
entirely different development of 3,000 of application of kelalei
pesaq, different gezeiros and taqanos...

And to make it harder, let's say their population of shomerei Torah
uMizvos has been roughly the same as ours all these years. So there are
no grounds for saying one set of Sanhedrins is more authorivative than
the other.

: In our modern way of thinking, in which "Eretz" means not only this
: planet but the entire physical universe, and in which "Shamayim" does
: NOT include planets and stars but only the metaphysical universe, -
: Why would martians have a different status than any other foreigners?

Because it's possible that if Vulcans existed, HQBH would have provided
them with /their/ mamlekhes kohanim. Yes, I can't guess what HQBH would
do -- He could equally have wanted their spiritual development to
wait until *we* get there. Like some aboriginal people on this planet,
who never heard of us or even Ibrahimic religions relatively recently.

Possibly relevant is the Rambam's shitah that chasidei umos ha'olam
are only those who keep the 7 mitzvos because they were given at
Sinai. Perhaps this gives more reason for a Vulcan am hanivchar.
If anyone who does the right thing because it's logically the right
thing accomplished their goal in life, then perhaps not every
kind of being with bekhirah needs access to a revelation.

:                                              The issue here is that if
: they claimed to have some sort of Revelation from the One True G-d,
: then would we accept it as being another facet of the Shiv'im Panim
: LaTorah? And my answer is: What would we say if a group of earthly
: *humans* claimed to have some sort of Revelation from the One True
: G-d? Would we accept *that* as being another facet of the Shiv'im
: Panim LaTorah?

We are a segulah mikol ha'amim, beni bekhori Yisrael. We know we recieved
a unique revelation. The discussion is whether it's unique for all of
humanity, or full-stop unique universally.

: My guess is that our response would be: That's very nice, and you are
: a sincere group of righeous Bnei Noach... and then we'd pretty much
: ignore them...

I agree with the "ignore" part, though. Accept for the academics
and their journals.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Despair is the worst of ailments. No worries
mi...@aishdas.org        are justified except: "Why am I so worried?"
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 4
From: H Lampel
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 11:53:24 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Torah precheit?




On 11/7/2017 6:05 PM, MIcha Berger wrote:
> ... that the universe was created at some point in the nearer
> past, eg 5778 years ago -- or Last Thursday -- and everything before that is
> fake. ...is the position of ... R' Avigdor Miller.

He certainly is not of the opinion of last-Thursday-ism. (I suspect RMB did not really mean that.) His opinion is based on the mesora.

Re: ''and everything before that is fake. ...is the position of ... R' Avigdor Miller''

To clarify, R' Avigdor Miller's position is not that fossils, for example,
were planted merely as a test of our emunah.

> Why should the [dinosaurs] need explanation any more than the
dodo, the passenger pigeon, or any of the other species which
> have become extinct, some even in our time? The huge
> animals of ancient times, as well as many small animals,
> became extinct each in the due time decreed by the timetable
> of Heaven. ... Their existence is a fact which does
> not help th theory of Evolution in any manner.

(Rejoice O Youth, pp. 47-48)


However, that Adam was created as a 30-year-old (as Chazal say), with, for example, a full mouth of teeth? Yes. Because:

>     ''Creation means that the Universe began at once in full-blown development.
>     The First Man immediately had trees whose fruit he could eat.
>     But fruit trees must beforehand be pollinated by bees, and bees need beehives with all their
>     paraphernalia. So you understand that Creation implies that
>     everything came into existence without benefit of time."
>
>     "Trees have in their trunks a number of concentric rings,
>     each ring denoting a year of existence. If the First Man had
>     sawed off a tree, would he have found rings inside?"
>
>     "Since he had trees, they were what we know a tree
>     to be."
>
>     ...thousand-year redwood trees...?"
>
>     "Creation included everything. Just as the First Man
>     had mature fruit trees at the first moment, so also the world
>     possessed mature lumber trees which were created at the
>     same time."
>
>     "[So]... all animals and insects and bacteria were created,
>     including those which need rotting old logs and crumbling old
>     rocks for their habitat or sustenance. Thus, it is self?
>     explanatory that the world possessed 'aged' materials from the
>     very outset, including vegetation and animal carcasses with low
>     carbon-14 content and rocks with heavy lead content.''
>
> (Ibid. pp 45-46) 

Zvi Lampel

PS--Again, this is to clarify Rav Miller's position, and hopefully will not evolve (;)) into a discussion of it. Been there, done that, and no time.

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Message: 5
From: Alexander Seinfeld
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2017 21:00:29 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Torah precheit?


>
>
>
>But there is a more thoughtful response: Perhaps the only way we can
>have teva today is if the universe we have now looks like it always
>ran by teva. Otherwise, the effects of nissim would still be causing
>anomolies we could pick up today. So much for hesteir Panim.
>
>In which case, we need a universe that is so big that our place is in
>looks like some unnoticable backwater. We need a universe that looks
>like it had a Big Bang and Inflation area in order for us to live with
>the set of laws of nature we have.
>
>And then their existence does impact us.

Just want to point out, or remind, that there are two independent
questions here that often become conflated.

1. Can a rational person believe in ?young Earth? (i.e., >6,000 years old)?
2. Why would God create a universe making it look like it is far older
than it really is?

The basis of answering yes to #1 has nothing to do with #2. I do not need
to know why in order to examine the evidence for #1 and conclude that He
did probably make the world 5,778 years ago. The fact that I cannot answer
#2 should not be entered as evidence against #1. This is the m?haleich of
R? Dovid Gottlieb. The fallacy of the skeptics is to mock #1 based on #2,
when in fact it is irrelevant.

My own personal belief is merely that the vastness of space and time give
us the opportunity with our puny minds to have an analogy for God?s
infiniteness. 




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