Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 43

Mon, 03 Apr 2017

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:09:12 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Chazakah that Changed

On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 06:48:36PM +0000, Rich, Joel wrote:
: Iirc some say that he meant tan du was based on a pasukI(tshukasech)
: whereas others may be based on observation

Exept, as I quoted and pointed to in my OP, complete with repeating
the most relevant phraes, RYBS says a rule and for example tav lemeisiv...

Some can say that, but it doesn't fit the words. It is hard to argue
that's what RYBS meant when he outright states it as a kelal, with
TlM as on example.


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Message: 2
From: Ben Bradley
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 20:45:05 +0000
[Avodah] Aruch HaShulchan and pouring wine at the Seder

The Aruch HaShulchan was not happy with the minhag that the baal haseder
has his wine poured by someone else. He writes that it's a bit haughty to
order his wife to pour for him and that in his city it was not the minhag.

Aside from the interestingly contemporary sound of his concern, it seems to
me that the current widespread minhag is for everyone to pour for everyone
else, which would avoid the concern of the ArHaSh.

1. Am I right that this is most people's practice?

2. If so is it a) based on the poskim, b) an old practice without formal endorsement, or c) a new-fangled sop to modernity?


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Message: 3
From: Cantor Wolberg
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 20:49:02 -0400
[Avodah] Tzav: "As Long As The Soul Is Within Me, I Will

Among the sacrifices mentioned in this weeks parsha is the korban todah, Thanksgiving Offering. 
The Medrash (Lev. R., 9.7) tells us that in the future all the sacrifices will be nullified, 
except the Thanksgiving Offering.

Rashi (Leviticus 7:12) states (paraphrased): A man offers a thanksgiving offering (in the Temple) 
when he is saved from potential danger. There are four types: sea travelers, desert travelers, 
those released from prison and a seriously ill patient who has recovered. As the verse says in Psalms (107:21), 
"They should give thanks to God for His kindness, and for His wonders to mankind.?

Interestingly and providentially, the mnemonic for this group of four is
							   which stands for
[Chavush (jail), Yisurim (illness), Yam (sea), Midbar (desert)], (Shulchan
Aruch 219:1).								   
				In our times, we fulfill this concept with
the recitation of the blessing, HaGomel ("He who grants favors...").

There is a beautiful insight in the Avudraham on laws and commentary on
							    The author was
student of Ba'al HaTurim (R. Yaakov ben Asher) and was a rabbi in Seville. 
				 When the hazzan says Modim, the
congregation recites the "Modim d'Rabbanan" (The Rabbis' Modim).	   
	Why is that? The Avudraham says that for all blessings in the
Sh?moneh Esrei we can have an agent.					   
							      For 'Heal
Us', for 'Bless Us with a Good Year' and so forth we can have the sheliach
tzibbur say the blessing for us.					   
				       However, there is one thing that no
one else can say for us. We must say it for ourselves. That one thing is
"Thank You".								   
       Hoda'ah has to come from the individual. No one can be our agent to
say 'Thank You.' (This is similar to asking for forgiveness.		   
						You must obtain it from the
 l wronged. Not even the Almighty can forgive you for wronging a fellow human being).
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Message: 4
From: Zev Sero
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 23:28:54 -0400
Re: [Avodah] The Halachic Adventures of the Potato

> "The Halachic Adventures of the Potato" ? by R' Yitzchak Spitz
> https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5184
> [...]
> In fact, and this is not widely known, the Chayei Adam does actually
 > rule this way,

Sigh.  This claim comes up regularly, but as far as I can tell it's not 
true.  If anyone has actually seen this inside the Chayei (or Nishmas or 
whatever) Adam, please correct me by citing the location, but do *not* 
cheat by copying a citation from some secondary source; I will not 
accept it, because I know very well that there are many secondary 
sources who claim this, but none of them give a *valid* reference to 
where he wrote it.  What I *have* seen in the Nishmas Adam is an aside, 
in the course of writing something different, that by the way in Germany 
they treat potatoes as kitniyos.

In fact I'll go further: I don't believe that there has ever been a 
posek of any stature who forbade potatoes as kitniyos, nor any community 
that ever accepted such a practice.  I have seen many sources claiming 
that someone else, somewhere else forbade it, or that some other 
community far away treats it as kitinyos, but never any first hand 
acccount.   When the Rosh writes that in Provence they said Tal Umatar 
from Marcheshvan 7th I believe it, because he was there and saw it with 
his own eyes. But I have never seen anyone report having seen with his 
own eyes a community that forbids potatoes, or a psak din to that 
effect.  It's always someone else somewhere else. Until I see a first 
hand account I don't believe it.

Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

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Message: 5
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 23:30:20 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Shul Practices

R' Joel Rich asked about guests in a shul where the guest's practices
differ from the shul's. I am bothered by the question, and even more so by
the responses.

What has happened Porush Min Hatzibur? What has happened to Derech Eretz
and simple good manners?

(Previous discussions here on Avodah have claimed that some poskim actually
hold that a visitor who davens Nusach Sfard should use that text even if he
is in the tzibur of a Nusach Ashkenaz shul. Ditto for responding to
Kedusha, so I will not discuss those particular examples.)


> Would your shul allow a guest to say 13 middot aloud
> by Tachanun (if local practice is not to)?

We're not talking about a few words here, but approximately a whole page
worth, that the tzibur would be forced to say. It's not clear from the
question whether this guest is the shliach tzibur or not, but I think it is
safe to say that in my shul, a shliach tzibur who tries this would be
quickly informed of his error, and if it came from someone in the seats
he'd simply be ignored.

> Would your shul allow a guest to read his own Aliya?

From your use of the word "guest", I am presuming that this was not
arranged in advance. If the guest had approached the gabbai a few days in
advance to make this request, I don't know what the answer would be. But it
sounds like the guest was called up, and at that point he asked the koreh,
"May I read it myself?", as in the story that R' Josh Meisner told.

I am horrified by the lack of consideration that this guest has toward the
time and effort that the baal koreh put into preparing the laining. In
RJM's story this happened on Rosh Chodesh, and I do concede that RC is by
far the most frequently read parsha of all. But the question as posed was
more general, applicable to any laining whether weekday or Shabbos.

I am particularly surprised by the reaction of RJM's rav, who <<< insisted
... that the next two olim also read their own aliyos so as not to directly
draw a distinction between those who read their own aliyah and those who do
not. >>> While I appreciate the sensitivity involved, I am really surprised
that this shul has such a large pool of people who can be called upon to
lain properly, even for Rosh Chodesh - literally at a moment's notice.

How common is this? Are there shuls where any randomly chosen person is
able to lain?

Akiva Miller
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Message: 6
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 13:40:59 +0300
[Avodah] chazkah that changed

<<The Rama says that nowadays, brazeness is too common, and the Ran says
this is only WRT to demanding a divorce to any subsequent marriage.
Hagahos Maimonis says we do not rely on this chazaqah to allow her to
collect her kesuvah. Veyeis omrim, it's only believed lechumera (BY in
the name of OC). >>

I would venture that according to everyone chazakot in financial matters
can change.
The famous case is a borrower who denies everything (kofer ba-kol)
according to the Torah he doesn't pay anything and is not required to swear
since no borrower would be brazen to completely deny a lie. The gemara says
that "today" people are brazen and so we require a "shevua".

I would guess that other financial chazakot for example that someone
doesnt repay a loan ahead of time would depend on the current situation. If
today there would be some reason for people to pay back a loan early that I
would guess that the halacha indeed would change.

Eli Turkel
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Message: 7
From: Arie Folger
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 13:01:33 +0200
Re: [Avodah] Visiting a Shul

RJRich asked:

> Visiting a shul questions-actual practices and sources appreciated:
> * Would your shul allow a guest to read his own Aliya?
> * Would your shul allow a guest to say his own nussach of kaddish (not as
> * Would your shul (in galut) allow the shatz not to say baruch hashem
l'olam in maariv?
> * Would your shul allow a guest to say 13 middot aloud by Tachanun(if
local practice is not to)?
> * Would the answers be different if requested before prayer (vs. gabbai
intervention at time of event)?

In all those cases, in our shul, local minhag trumps the wishes of the
guest, though we won't jump at anyone for adding vekooraiv mesheechay or
werewa'h weassalah.

Sometimes the reading of one's own aliya may be tolerated.

When I was an avel, I mostly davvened in shuls that did not adhere to my
minhag (though I layer "converted" to one of those other minhaggim), and as
shaliach tzibbur, always followed their respective minhaggim.
Mit freundlichen Gr??en,
Yours sincerely,

Arie Folger
Check out my blog: http://rabbifolger.net
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Message: 8
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 13:15:37 +0000
Re: [Avodah] Shul Practices

R' Joel Rich asked about guests in a shul where the guest's practices differ from the shul's. I am bothered by the question, and even more so by the responses.

What has happened Porush Min Hatzibur? What has happened to Derech Eretz and simple good manners?
I have seen them all occur. What triggered the question was a shiur on
yutorah where a pulpit rabbi mentioned that a visiting guest sfardi scholar
asked in advance and was granted the right to read his own aliya. I was
surprised and then thought of other situations that I had a similar
reaction to.
Joel Rich
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Message: 9
From: Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2017 22:16:10 -0400
[Avodah] Poisoning in Halacha

Tonight my chevrusa and I learned the sugya in Bava Kamma 47b of one who 
puts poison in front of his friend's animal. A brief synopsis and 
application of the sugya is at 

?A person put some poisoned food in front of his neighbor?s animal,? 
Rabbi Dayan said. ?The animal ate the food and died. The owner sued the 
neighbor for killing his animal. What do you say about this case??
?I would say he?s liable,? said Mr. Wolf. ?He poisoned the animal.?
?I?m not so sure,? objected Mr. Mann. ?The neighbor didn?t actually kill 
the animal. Although he put out the poison, the animal chose to eat the 
?Animals don?t exactly have choice,? reasoned Mr. Wolf. ?If they see 
food, they eat! Anyway, even if the neighbor didn?t directly kill the 
animal, he certainly brought about the animal?s death.?
?But is that enough to hold him liable?? argued Mr. Mann. He turned to 
Rabbi Dayan.?The Gemara (B.K. 47b; 56a) teaches that placing poison 
before an animal is considered grama,? answered Rabbi Dayan. ?The animal 
did not have to eat the poisoned food. Therefore, the neighbor is not 
legally liable in beis din, but he is responsible b?dinei Shamayim. This 
means that he has a strong moral liability to pay, albeit not 
enforceable in beis din (Shach 386:23; 32:2).?

It struck us that it follows that if one poisons another human being by, 
say, placing cyanide in his tea, which the victim then drinks and dies, 
the poisoner is exempt from capitol punishment. It would seem that such 
a manner of murder falls into the category of the Rambam's ruling in 
Hilchos Rotze'ach u'Shemiras Nefesh 3:10:

Different rules apply, however, in the following instances: A person 
binds a colleague and leaves him to starve to death; he binds him and 
leaves him in a place that will ultimately cause him to be subjected to 
cold or heat, and these influences indeed come and kill the victim; he 
covers him with a barrel; he uncovers the roof of the building where he 
was staying; or he causes a snake to bite him. Needless to say, a 
distinction is made if a colleague dispatches a dog or a snake at a 
colleague. In all the above instances, the person is not executed. He 
is, nevertheless, considered to be a murderer, and "the One who seeks 
vengeance for bloodshed" will seek vengeance for the blood he shed.

(translation from 

Perhaps this was a davar pashut to everyone else, but for me, tonight, 
it was a mind-boggling revelation!

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Message: 10
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 13:05:32 +0000
[Avodah] Hilchos Chol HaMoed

From  the article at


The following is meant as a convenient review of Halachos pertaining to
Chol-Hamoed. The Piskei Din for the most part are based purely on the
Sugyos, Shulchan Aruch and Rama, and the Mishna Berurah, unless stated
otherwise. They are based on my understanding of the aforementioned texts
through the teachings of my Rebbeim. As individual circumstances are often
important in determining the psak in specific cases, and as there may be
different approaches to some of the issues, one should always check with
one's Rov first.

See the above URL for more.

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