Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 39

Thu, 23 Mar 2017

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 04:36:38 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Is any meat today kosher?

On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 10:21:46AM +0200, Simon Montagu via Avodah wrote:
: No, I'm saying there are trei dinim in the Hebrew word "kashrut" -- the
: technical sense, equivalent to "kashrus", and a larger sense, equivalent to
: "right" (as in "let right be done").

But there is not issur cheftza created by tzaar baalei chayim. This isn't
a matter of kashrus or "kashrus".

BTW, that also doesn't fit the context. R' David Rosen is explicitly
trying to draw ZBC into the umbrella of kashrus, and not using "kosher"
in the sense of "appropriate". (As in the Boar's Head ad, "Something's
not kosher in the ham industry", followed by accusations about their
competitors' product.)

"Kashrut involves more than just the way the animal's throat is cut and the
hecking of its vital organs. Kashrut involves the whole relationship
etween humans and the animal world...."

But in any case, my real objection is, "from A to Y all injunctions and
prohibitions have been gnored and desecrated, how can that product really
be called kosher?"

The issur of the act does not impact the kashrus of the result.

We are allowed to eat fruit from a branch that a Jew grafted.

Tir'u baTov!

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Message: 2
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 10:19:41 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Pesach - Lecithin does not render chocolate

R' Zev Sero wrote:

<<<   If it's not known, how do you know it's even kosher?  If it's because
it has a hechsher for the whole year, why doesn't the machshir say whether
it's also good for Pesach.  Still, if you don't know you can probably rely
on the majority of milk being OK, and  buy it before Pesach just in case
there is something in it, so it should be batel. Is the same thing true of
chocolate?  Is the majority of chocolate chamets-free?>>>

You seem to be unaware of the realities of cholov hacompanies in the USA
prior to a couple of decades ago. One would enter a grocery or supermarket,
 and the milk had no Jewish supervision at all. The container attested to
the Vitamin D that was added to it, and I think another vitamin too.

Anyone who wasn't makpid on Jewish hashgacha, that's what they drank. As a
know-nothing rookie baal tshuva in New Jersey in the early '70s, I was
worried about the vitamins, so I mailed a label from the local milk to the
OU, asking them about it (for year-round, not specifically Pesach) and they
replied in writing that none of the ingredients were problematic.

I remember that in some later years, there was hashgacha on the milk for
Pesach. At the time, we used to get our milk from a mostly-dairy-items
convenience store called Garden State Farms. For Pesach, there was a piece
of paper, about 3 by 5 inches I suppose, with a hole in the middle and
placed on the neck of each bottle. It said "Kosher for Passover", with the
name and city of some rabbi who I did not know.

One story I remember happened when Erev Pesach was on Shabbos, so it must
have been 1974 or 77. A few days before Pesach and there was still no
Pesach label on the milk in the store. Finally, Friday afternoon, eager to
get milk for yom tov, my mother asked one of the employees, "When are you
getting the Passover milk?" His answer was something like, "The rabbi
cleaned everything last week, but we're not putting the labels on until
tomorrow. "

I was fortunate to have such milk available. Others did not, and were
routinely told simply to buy their milk before Pesach. During Pesach 1973,
I was part of the kitchen staff at the OU-supervised Monsey Park Hotel. As
Pesach began, one of the refrigerators was filled with enough milk to last
to the end of yom tov. Unfortunately, by the last days of chol hamoed it
didn't taste so good any more. I know they tried to get more milk for the
last days of yom tov, but I don't remember what actually happened.

Today, the OU writes this at
<<< Milk contains added vitamins that contain a slight chametz risk.
Therefore it is best to purchase milk made with special Passover
supervision. See the OU Passover guide or check the OU Passover product
search for a complete list. If one cannot obtain Passover certified milk,
regular milk should be bought before Passover at which time chametz can be
nullified (batel). >>>

Another example, Rav Eider writes the following on page 47: "Vitamin D
which is added to some milk can be made form grain. Although the percentage
is minute, if it was added on Pesach it MAY be prohibited [usually it is
nifsal me'achilas kelev]. In addition, milk may be processed in the same
pasteurizer used for chometz (e.g. chocolate milk). Therefore, milk
procesed during Pesach requires proper supervision."


Suppose I have an UNsupervised product, and the manufacturer claim it is
made of nothing  but cocoa beans and sugar. Or suppose that it even has
lecithin, but I'm Sefardi. Why would it be assur on Pesach?

Akiva Miller
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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 11:06:59 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Can one add water to a hot water urn on yom tov

On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 06:26:42AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: WADR, I question the metzius of the two-heater system described by Rav
: Belsky. Is the smaller heater really on constantly? ...

Well, in this urn,
the keep warm element (and its indicator light) has a thermostat set
at 88degC, and the circuit as a whole (thus including the main heating
element and its light) are set at 170degC.

Two elements, but neither is "always on". And I would think this design is
consistent in all urns that have separate "boiling" and "keep warm" light.
But I fail to see how that is relevent to RYB's statement (as quoted):
> Rav Belsky, zt"l said that one may not even ask a non-Jew to add cold
> water to the urn. Although turning on the indicator light is an unintended
> consequence, and strictly speaking one is permitted to ask a non-Jew to do
> a permitted activity even if this will cause an unintended consequence
> that is forbidden (psik reisha), in this case it is not permitted. Rav
> Belsky explained that there are two heaters in an electric urn. The larger
> heater turns on when the urn is filled with cold water. Once the proper
> temperature is reached, the first heater turns off and a second smaller
> heater turns on to maintain the temperature. When one adds cold water to
> an urn, one is not only changing the status of the indicator light, but
> that person is also turning on the larger heater. Since the inte  nt of
> adding cold water to the urn is to cook the water, one cannot consider
> the turning on of the heater to be an unintended consequence. To
> appropriately add water to an urn on yom tov one should boil the water on
> the stove and then pour it into the urn.

AISI, RYB's main point in mentioning the two elements is for someone
to realize that it isn't a single element going from keep warm to boil
temperatures, but rather a second element is going from off to on --

: And if he is correct, is it true of ALL urns?

Given the cost of cutting down the voltage for the sake of running the
same element at a second low-heat mode, this design is far more energy
and/or cost efficient. The unused voltage would be wasted in a resistor,
or you would add the whole complexity of what a dimmer switch does plus
having a thermostate that could work with the dimmer circuit, rather
than the simple on-off jobs in that circuit diagram.

This solution is far simpler and does the same job. I would assume it's

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Live as if you were living already for the
mi...@aishdas.org        second time and as if you had acted the first
http://www.aishdas.org   time as wrongly as you are about to act now!
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 17:23:31 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Shabbos Hachodesh

On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 12:27:27PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
: 2) "Sun and Moon" (from the Sefat Emet) -- Israel orders its calendar
: by the moon, for it is used to living in the night of history.

Actually, we use both. After all, we average 365.2468 days / year in
order to keep Pesach in the Aviv. (Meaning a drift of one day every 217
years compared to the astronomical year.)

But clearly months are primary.

I found the Maharsha on Chullin 60b, on the aggadita about Hashem shrinking
the moon during creation day 4. The gemara lists consolations that
Hashem gives the moon:

   The moon is hurt. "Master of the Universe, because I presented You with
   a true complaint, I should reduce myself?

   Hashem offers consolation, and permits that unlike the sun, "Go and
   rule over the day and the night."

   The moon sees this as no consolation. If the sun is shining all day, it
   continues, "What good is a candle at noon?" It will out-shine me, how
   do I gain by shining then?"

   Hashem offers an alternate consolation. "It is destined for Israel to
   use you to count days and years." To this day, the Jewish people use a
   lunar calendar.

   This too the moon finds insufficient. "Without the sun they can not
   count seasons either." (Rashi, Chullin ad loc, explains that the
   leap years are based upon the seasons. The second Adar is added is
   to insure that Pesach is always in the spring, the Jewish calendar
   is not purely lunar.)

   G-d provides a third consolation. Righteous men will be called by your
   name, for example (Amos 7) "Ya'akov haqatan [the small]", "Shmuel
   haQatan" [a tanna], (Shemuel 1 17) "David haqatan".

   The moon thought about it, but was still unsatisfied.

   Hashem commands, "bring a kaparah, a korban of forgiveness, in My Name,
   for I have wronged the moon."

Reish Laqish than explains the sa'ir brought on Rosh Chodesh as a
"chatas Lashem" (Bamidbar 28:15), is to atone for this "sin" of G-d's.

The Maharsha explains this gemara`s metaphor a follows: moon symbolizes
the Jewish people who appear small in this world. The midrash is a
discussion about the need for Israel to be oppressed in this world,
so that they may shine brighter in the next. He identifies the sa'ir,
the he-goat of the Rosh Chodesh chatas offering, with Rome the children
of Ya'akov's brother Eisav. The sai'r represents the inheritor of Har
Sei'ir. Both "eisav" and "se'ir" refer to hairiness. Surely of all of
the nations of the world, history is dominated by Rome and the western
civilization it spawned. And, like the moon, Israel's fortunes rise,
fall and rise again under its shadow.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             I always give much away,
mi...@aishdas.org        and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
http://www.aishdas.org           -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
Fax: (270) 514-1507

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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 17:26:29 -0400
Re: [Avodah] super stores

On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 12:12:53PM -0700, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: [frum] stores whose side effect is putting economic duress upon smaller
: shopping outlets?     in one sense it benefits the tzibbur to have cheaper
: prices, but disadvantages store owners who might otherwise be richer...

... which in turn disadvantages the tzibbur. The tzibbur needs successful
stores that stay open. The proprietor needs to make not only parnasah, but
enough success to put up with the risks and effort of being a shop owner.

Just saying, one can't make a halachic argument for any particular economic
system based on what people need. Every system's proponents believe they're
backing the one that best serve's those needs.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Worrying is like a rocking chair:
mi...@aishdas.org        it gives you something to do for a while,
http://www.aishdas.org   but in the end it gets you nowhere.
Fax: (270) 514-1507

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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 17:07:44 -0400
Re: [Avodah] purim drink

On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 06:54:03AM +0200, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
:> The Baal haMaor reads the gemara as "Rabba Shechat lei leR' Zeira
:> is the masqana, and one is not supposed to drink on Purim.
: For the record, the verb shachat in Akkadian (Babylonian) means
: "attack", rather than "slaughter".

But it continues (Megillah 7b) "lemachar, ba'ei Rachmei ve'achyeih". R
Zeira required revival afterward.

The story could be ahistorical or it could be guzma. But I do think
the usual (for Aramaic) shachat = slaughtered is intended.

Tir'u baTov!

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Message: 7
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:13:53 +1100
[Avodah] KaVuAh Kol DeParish - Zevachim 73a

R Micha, You have offered an entire treatise on Kol DeParish
but I think it is more productive to focus on smaller aspects

So lets look at your first 2 comments
1]   you posit that a RDK Ruba DeLeisa KaMan is not a ta'aroves
I have no idea why you say that or how you support that
when we select an animal at random to milk it
we assert it is from the majority that are not Tereifos
Why are we not entitled to view this, and why is it not correct to analyse
this as a TaAruvos?
There is a TaAruvos of K and non-K dairy cows
we select a few at random and assert they are from the Rov

After all, these guidelines emerge from the same Mekor in the Torah

Your second point
Zevachim 73a, invokes kol deparish [to permit all the animals in a group in
which there is one which is Assur] because it cannot argue that the Assur
is Battel to the Rov since the animal as a Berya isn't Battel.
Nevertheless, it WILL be Muttar when it is Parish.

So we see that the restriction of the Berya status is severely limited
It can prevent Bittul when the beast is a part of the pack
But it has no meaning when the beast is removed from the pack
and we employ the argument of Kol DeParish

Your Q is - How do we explain that although it is not Battel in the
TaAruvos - it WILL be Battel when it is Parish?

In response I say
Firstly, this is a Q on everyone not just on my analysis of KaVuAh and

Now to answer the Q
We must first determine how a group of lets say 10 animals of which nine
are Muttar and one is Assur, is comparable to the classic case of KaVuA, 10
butcher shops where 9 sell Kosher and one sells non-Kosher.

Let's make them mobile butcher shops, just like the animals are mobile.
They remain identifiable however, either to the shoppers because they are
marked or if they are not marked, they are identifiable to those selling
and serving from that shop.

It is obvious that the Gemara is contemplating a situation where just as it
is possible to identify the Kosher and non-K shops it is also possible to
identify the Kosher and the non-K animals.

Now we cause the animals to be agitated and run around [NichBeSHinHu
DeNeNayDi] and they are no longer deemed to be KaVuA
Similarly, we can have a case where the butcher shops are hijacked, all
identifying markings are removed and the shops driven around so that we can
no longer identify which is the non-K and which the K shop.

In both these cases we Pasken that any animal we select is Parush
And any shop we enter is also Parush

I think it is easy to see how the status of being defined as a TaAruvos
readily explains these anomalies
it all depends on whether we see the situation as a TaAruvos


Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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Message: 8
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 10:26:45 +1100
[Avodah] Kashrus KLP; food processing equipment

Reb Z Sero - Please bring some factual support for the following assertion
- bottling equipment is used for all sorts of things, especially nowadays
when efficiency is key and equipment is never allowed to lie idle.

In my experience and the shared experience of many others, from many parts
of the world, who are engaged in Kashrus - this is a most unlikely

Even amongst those companies who process and pack for many brand names,
they invariably process and pack a single type and style simply because the
machinery is designed for efficiency, to handle one type and style of food.
Attempting to use the machinery for other purposes requires much adjusting
and fiddling and also presents a risk of damage to the machinery.
Furthermore, every brand will insist and by law must ensure, that their
product is pure and as described. This is all overseen by designated audit
programs such as HACCP. Invariably such cleaning satisfies requirements for

Many years ago there was a short lived trend for dairy companies to also
sell breakfast fruit juices, which some dairies tried unsuccessfully to
pasteurise on their dairy pasteurisers; and there was the attempt to argue
that the fruit juice was Milchig of Ch Akkum.


Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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Message: 9
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:29:28 +1100
[Avodah] New Guidelines for Kashrus

R Z Sero echoes with these words - the days when it was a simple product
are long gone -
the recently promoted mantra
which is designed to ensure more business for the K agencies
but seems to have little to do with the Halacha of Kashrus

Kashrus is not about having guarantees
no one [well at least not yet] insists on checking a Shechted animal
for every single possibility that may render it a Tereifa
we rely on Rov.

The vast majority of ingredients
even those argued to be non-K
are used in quantities well below a disqualifying proportion

although the truth is that these products are clearly Kosher
even when derived from non-K sources
they are seriously altered from their original state
they are in the eyes of Halacha
a new entity

The entire structure of Yotzeh VeNichness
is predicated upon the same
there is no guarantee
there is just an assertion
that in most cases people would not tamper with the food

Kashrus is not about guarantees

and neither is Yiddishkeit
saying the Shema 15 times or PoSeiAch Ess YaDecha 20 times
is a symptom of a disturbed distorted version of Yiddishkeit


Meir G. Rabi
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Message: 10
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 23:20:54 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Kashrus KLP; food processing equipment

On 22/03/17 19:26, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> Even amongst those companies who process and pack for many brand names,
> they invariably process and pack a single type and style simply because
> the machinery is designed for efficiency, to handle one type and style
> of food.

Define "type and style".   Bottling equipment will handle pretty much 
any liquid just as well, and they do *not* clean thoroughly between 
products.  On the contrary, they order the runs from light to dark, so 
as to avoid having to clean in between them.  That means (treife) white 
grape juice is often the first run of the morning.

Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

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Message: 11
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 23:36:58 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Pesach - Lecithin does not render chocolate

On 22/03/17 10:19, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:

> Anyone who wasn't makpid on Jewish hashgacha, that's what they drank. As
> a know-nothing rookie baal tshuva in New Jersey in the early '70s, I was
> worried about the vitamins, so I mailed a label from the local milk to
> the OU, asking them about it (for year-round, not specifically Pesach)
> and they replied in writing that none of the ingredients were problematic.

Except when they were.  There was at least one company that was known to 
use shark oil as the source of its vitamin D.   That means it couldn't 
get a hechsher, but one could probably rely on bittul to drink it 
without one.

The reason to buy milk (or any other liquid) before pesach, and 
preferably to strain it before pesach as well, is so that if there *is* 
any chamets in there one can rely on bittul lach belach.   I am unsure 
whether that would apply to chocolate, which was once liquid but is now 

Kitniyos isn't the issue, chamets is.  Without a hechsher to ensure that 
they're not *deliberately* adding something that has chamets in it, and 
that they don't use the same equipment for a variety that contains 
chamets, I don't see how one can use it on pesach, unless one holds that 
something which melted and then solidified still benefits from bittul 
lach belach.  (In the case of chocolate in particular it seems to me 
that the most likely suspect would be vanilla extract, which is often 
chamets gamur.)

Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

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Message: 12
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 14:15:16 +0000
[Avodah] I will be a guest at someone?s home for the Pesach

I must admit that this is a new one for me.  YL

From today's OU Halacha Yomis:

Q. I will be a guest at someone?s home for the Pesach seder. Is there any reason why I should bring my own matzos?

A. The Mishnah Berurah (454:14) writes that there is a requirement to own
the matzah that will be eaten for the mitzvah. This is derived from a
comparison of the mitzvos of matzah and the mitzvah of separating challah.
Just like only the owner of the dough (or his agent) may separate challah,
so too one must own the matzah that will be used for the mitzvah.
Therefore, one may not fulfill their obligation with stolen matzah.
However, one may fulfill the mitzvah with borrowed matzah, since it is
understood that the borrower will take possession of the matzah and will
not return the same matzah to the lender. Most poskim equate a guest to a
borrower. Accordingly, there is no need to bring your own matzah to the
seder. However, some suggest that a guest is different than a borrower. A
borrower can use the matzah in any manner. In contrast, a guest may not
give away the matzah to a third party. The guest only has permission to
consume the matzah himself. This may not be considered
  complete ownership. The Sfas Emes (Sukkah 35a) suggests that the owner
  should formally give the matzos to the guest. Rav Zilberstein (Chashukei
  Chemed 38a) explains that although one should not make acquisitions on
  Yom Tov, it is permissible for the sake of a mitzvah. Poskim explain that
  this stringency is only relevant to guests and married children who are
  visiting for Yom Tov. It is not necessary for members of one?s household,
  such as one?s wife and children to acquire the matzah.

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