Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 143

Tue, 08 Nov 2016

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 08:01:11 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] V'San Bracha or V'san Tal U'Matar?


On Sun, Nov 06, 2016 at 02:48:48PM +0200, Akiva Blum wrote:
: In the EY that I live in, we start saying vsein tal on 7th Marchesvan.
: That's this coming Monday night.

I presume the actual case is that EY will be switching during the 3
week visit.

Whether or not I am guessing currectly, that case raises an interesting
variant on the question.

Would the answer be different if one is in Israel for the switch, and
would be switching with them?

What about the Israeli coming here? Would those that have the chutznik
saying "vesein berakhah" have the Israeli temporarily saying "vesein
tal umatar livrakha"?

I had a friend who refused to become Chazan in this situation. He
was indeed still saying "vesein berakhah" in the US, and believed
(logically enough) it was only possible because it was betzin'ah. He
therefore didn't want to be put in the predicament of having to say the
berakhah befarhesia.

I am eagerly awaiting someone bringing real sources to this thread,
though.

And knowing what lemaaseh the friend's poseiq told him to do.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Education is not the filling of a bucket,
mi...@aishdas.org        but the lighting of a fire.
http://www.aishdas.org                - W.B. Yeats
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 2
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 14:01:14 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] V'San Bracha or V'san Tal U'Matar? - Correction


My friend was clearly mistaken in that the saying of V'sain Tal U'Matar
begins in EY on 7 Mar Cheshvon which starts this Monday night. Thus he
really had no problem.

However, the question still remains, namely, " What should one do if
one goes to EY for a visit during the 3 weeks when V'Sain Bracha is
being said in the US and v'Sain Tal u'Matar is being said in EY?"

YL



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Message: 3
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 09:29:33 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Faith and Doubt


R"n Toby Katz wrote:

> The difference between them was that Noach never was an agnostic.
> This whole clever vort falls apart right from the beginning.  When
> Rashi says that Noach did and did not believe, he is OBVIOUSLY
> talking about the Flood -- Noach doubted whether Hashem really
> would carry through on his threat to destroy the world.  Not for a
> moment did he doubt the existence of the One who was talking to him
> and giving him instructions! The premise is absurd.

On the one hand, I concede that "he is obviously talking about the flood",
given that Rashi (7:7) says explicitly, "He believed and did not believe
that the flood would come."

But on the other hand, that same Rashi begins with the words "Af Noach
mik'tanei amana haya - Even Noach was among those of little faith." Isn't
it clear that this refers to faith in general? "Little faith" is a world
apart from "Maybe He will relent."

Under normal circumstances, one does not deny the existence of the one (or
the One) who is talking to him. But nevuah is not a normal circumstance.
And as this same Rav Riskin taught my class when I was a freshman at YU,
"humans excel at self-deception." It's quite possible that Noach was merely
one of a long line of people who wondered, "Was that really God talking to
me, or did I only imagine it?"

Akiva Miller
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Message: 4
From: Moshe Yehuda Gluck
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 10:27:43 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Questions about Krias Ha Torah


R' YL:
> 1. What was the schedule for Krias Hatorah both before and during
> the first Bais Mikdash?

> 2.  According to one source I have,  Krias Ha Torah during the time of the
> Tannaim followed the yearly cycle,  but changed during the time of the
> Amoraim to a triennial cycle.   Is this true and why did this change take
> place?

> 3. When Jews returned to EY in numbers they opted for the yearly cycle.  Why
> didn't the return to the triennial cycle?

Of interest regarding the above:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triennial_cycle

I used to learn in an "out-of-town" kollel, and we would get random
questions from people who found our number in the phone book. Once someone
called and asked what parashah a specific week would be in the triennial
cycle. That was the first I found out about the Conservative/Reform
practice of a triennial cycle.

KT,
MYG




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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 11:21:58 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Questions about Krias Ha Torah


On Sun, Nov 06, 2016 at 01:05:33AM +0000, Professor L. Levine wrote:
: 1. What was the schedule for Krias Hatorah both before and during the
: first Bais Mikdash?

There were no standardized sedros.

See BQ 82a. Moshe Rabbeinu established leining on Shabbos, Mon and Thu,
and how many aliyos. Ezra added Shabbos minchah and the idea that we
lein in cycles, and not just whatever reading the minyan wanted to.

: 2. According to one source I have, Krias Ha Torah during the time of
: the Tannaim followed the yearly cycle, but changed during the time of
: the Amoraim to a triennial cycle. Is this true and why did this change
: take place?

I think it was by location, not era.

For example, Megillah 29b says the trinnial cycle was followed bemaaravah.

: 3. When Jews returned to EY in numbers they opted for the yearly cycle.
: Why didn't the return to the triennial cycle?

They also didn't opt to reintroduce reading with Targum. Only Teimanim
still lein the way we used to.

And without Targum, leining 1/3 of a parashah isn't all that much. Perhaps
that's part of the reason why.

There wasn't really all that standard of a triennial cycle either. Some
read from Shavuos to the third Shavuos. Others completed the Torah twice
per shemittah (every 3-1/2 years, not 3). Etc...

In Binyamin miTudela's day (1170) some congregations in Egypt were still
leining in the 3 year cycle. And apparently the custom wasn't entirely
dead in the Rambam's day either.

But it not only required our 4 special parashios in Adar, the triennial
cycle also had to make special parshios for the tokhachos. It didn't
work as smoothly. A sceond possible piece to the answer.

But I think the main answer is that most of us have our roots in Bavel,
whether Sepharadi (which is almost entirely Babylonian mesorah) or
Ashkenazi (which is more of a mix). And even if not, from the end of
the Yerushalmi to the end of the geonim, we all turned to Babylonian
rabbanim. The same reason why "The Gemara" is Bavli. That's 800 years
of Babylonian leadship shaping the mesorah.

(RMYG mentioned the C triennial cycle. They just lein 1/3 of a sedra each
year, which means they're doing non-consecutive readings. Nothing to do
with our topic, aside from using it as an excuse to justify shortening
services.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The same boiling water
mi...@aishdas.org        that softens the potato, hardens the egg.
http://www.aishdas.org   It's not about the circumstance,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but rather what you are made of.



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Message: 6
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 16:02:11 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] V'San Bracha or V'san Tal U'Matar?


I have received several emails regarding this issue.

Reb Ira Epstein sent me the following links;

http://tinyurl.com/j5hsnyu

Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach: V'Sain Tal Umatar - Between Eretz Yisroel And Chutz La'Aretz, What Should Travelers Say?

and for a detailed discussion of the issue please see

http://rabbikaganoff.com/tag/vsein-tal-umatar/ 

Rabbi Dr. Ari Zivotofsky sent me the following (I could not locate it
on the OU web site.):
________________________________________
From: Ari Zivotofsky <Ari.Zivotof...@biu.ac.il>
Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2016 8:00 AM
To: Professor L. Levine
Subject: RE: V'Sain Bracha or V'sain Tal U'Matar?

This from the OU Torah Tidbits may interest your friend:

VEBBE REBBE
The Orthodox Union - via its website - fields questions of all types...
The following is a Q&A from Eretz Hemdah...

An Israeli Being a Chazan Abroad Before Dec. 5

Question: If a "chiyuv" to be a chazan is abroad between 7 Marcheshvan
and December 5th, is it okay for him to be a chazan? Does he say "v'ten
tal umatar livracha," (=T&M) during his silent Shemoneh Esrei (=Amida)
and chazarat hashatz?

Answer: We discussed the matter of travelers to chutz la'aretz during this
time of year in Living the Halachic Process (II:A-11), and we start with
a summary. If an Israeli is abroad on 7 Marcheshvan and will be returning
during the year, he should start asking for rain on 7 Marheshvan. While
some say to do so in its regular place, it is preferable to make the
request during the b'racha of Sh'ma Koleinu, due to a machloket on the
matter. If he started reciting T&M in Israel and traveled later, it is
even clearer that he should continue doing so, and there is more reason
for him to do so at its regular place.

One can question permissibility to be chazan on two grounds. One is
the question whether someone who is obligated in one form of Amida
can function on behalf of a tzibur that is obligated in a different
form. Regarding the matter of an Israeli being chazan for a chutz la'aretz
community on second day of Yom Tov, this is a daunting halachic problem
(see Bemareh Habazak II:36). One can claim the same issues apply
here. However, stringency requires making several assumptions (see
responsum of Rav C.P. Scheinberg in Yom Tov Sheni K'hilchato p. 415-423),
and it is very unlikely that all of them are correct. The great majority
of poskim say that this is not a problem (see Minchat Yitzchak X:9, Yom
Tov Sheni 10:6). Therefore, he can serve the tzibur according to their
needs, which is to not say T&M. (Yalkut Yosef (5745 ed., vol. I, p. 264)
says that even within chazarat hashatz he should unobtrusively whisper
T&M during Sh'ma Koleinu. However, that is practically and halachically
problematic, and is not accepted practice.)

Another issue is how the chazan deals with his conflicting needs during
silent Amida. On the one hand, he is obligated to have a Amida that
includes T&M. On the other hand, Chazal instituted silent Amida for a
chazan who is about to recite chazarat hashatz (which is a valid Amida),
in order to practice for that task (Rosh HaShana 34b). If our traveler
says T&M in its regular place, he is practicing in a way that would ruin
his chazarat hashatz, which makes his silent Amida self-defeating. Yet,
the Birkei Yosef (117:8) says that this is what he does. He cites as a
source the Taz's (117:2) idea that a community that needs rain at a time
when T&M is not said can ask in Sh'ma Koleinu (including the chazan)
even though chazarat hashatz cannot be done that way.

Several poskim see this setup as not problematic at all (see opinions
in Yom Tov Sheni K'hilchato 10:(17)), while others prefer avoiding the
situation (see B'tzel Hachochma I:62; the Birkei Yosef also implies
it). It likely depends on whether we say the idea of practicing is just
the original reason to institute silent Amida or that it remains the
practical guide for how the chazan does the Amida. Another application
is the question whether a chazan uses his own nusach for silent Amida
when leading a shul with a different nusach. The Minchat Yitzchak (VI:31)
justifies what he claims the minhag is to use one's own nusach, by saying
that it is enough that he does chazarat hashatz from a siddur.

Ed. note: To clarify - it can be argued that the idea of a practice
Amida is applicable when there weren't many siddurim around (perhaps
the days before printing) and the Shali'ach Tzibur would be saying the
out-loud Amida (the repetition) by heart. Then, a practice run through
is important. On the other hand... (continue reading)

In contrast, Igrot Moshe (OC II:29) posits that the practice Amida should
be done as chazarat hashatz will be, i.e., like the tzibur.

As a chiyuv, you have certainly have the right to be a chazan, whether
because of the opinions that there is no problem or because being
precluded from being chazan is a b'dieved situation. We add the following
suggestion (not requirement). If the chazan adds personal requests in
Sh'ma Koleinu, he should say T&M along with them instead of at its regular
place, with the following logic. Some poskim say to do so even when not a
chazan, he certainly fulfills his obligation, and since the chazan never
adds requests in chazarat hashatz, saying T&M will not cause a mistake.


YL




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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 18:27:30 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Survey of Scientists on Scientism



From Conservative Review <http://bit.ly/2fyXcpU>

    Sorry Richard Dawkins, science and religion ARE compatible
    By: Logan Albright | November 02, 2016

    Caricatures and exaggerations are major bugaboos of any belief system.
    ...
    But misrepresentation cuts both ways, and none are completely immune
    from it. People of faith tend to view the defenders of science as
    arrogant, intolerant, God-hating know-it-alls, who angrily shout down
    anyone with an opposing viewpoint. There is some justification for
    this belief, given that several high-profile atheists like Richard
    Dawkins -- as well as the late Christopher Hitchens -- tend to
    take this approach to rhetoric. But as in most cases, the vocal
    minority do not necessarily represent the whole, as a new survey
    entitled "Religion Among Scientists in International Context" shows.
    <http://bit.ly/2fwHNKg>

    ...
    In addition to the fairly obvious finding that many scientists see no
    conflict between their faith and the scientific method, the study is
    notable in that dozens of respondents mentioned Richard Dawkins
    unprompted, with complaints about the way he misrepresents their field.
    Of those issuing the complaints, more than half were non-believers,
    indicating that this issue is not limited to those in the religious
    community.

    The kind of science Dawkins espouses is sometimes known as
    "scientism." It is essentially the belief that the scientific method
    is the only reliable way to obtain knowledge or truth and that all
    conceivable questions can ultimately be answered by science -- or not
    at all. Scientism amounts almost to a worship of science, as well
    as of the experts who transmit knowledge to the common people. Any
    questioning of this knowledge is deemed an unforgivable heresy.
    ...

    While it is proper to reject the worship of science for its own sake,
    it is a foolish overreaction to adopt an anti-science attitude as a
    response. The true scientific mind is filled with wonder and humility,
    searching for answers while at the same time never forgetting how much
    we don't know. Such an attitude is wholly compatible with religion,
    where awe at the creator is married with enthusiasm for learning
    about the creation.
    ...



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Message: 8
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 12:55:34 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] The Beracha on Matzo


From today's Daf Hayomi B'Halacha


The beracha on matzo
The poskim discuss how matzos eaten throughout the year relate to the
previous halacha. Some poskim consider them mezonos, and this is the
Sefardic custom. Other poskim consider them hamotzi, and this is the
Ashkenazic custom. Many poskim, both Ashkenazic and Sefardic, suggest that
a person should always consume enough matzo to be required to wash and
bentch, or that he should eat it during a meal in which he washed on
regular bread. However, there are poskim who hold that the beracha is
always hamotzi and that one can wash and bentch on it. On Pesach, the
proper beracha is hamotzi according to all opinions, since matzo is the
bread on those days.
(??????? ??????? ????, 29)

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Message: 9
From: Professor L. Levine
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 14:27:49 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] Questions about Krias Ha Torah


In response to my questions


1.  What was the schedule for Krias Hatorah both before and during the first Bais Mikdash?


2.  According to one source I have,  Krias Ha Torah during the time of the
Tannaim followed the yearly cycle,  but changed during the time of the
Amoraim to a triennial cycle.	Is this true and why did this change take
place?


3. When Jews returned to EY in numbers they opted for the yearly cycle.  Why didn't the return to the triennial cycle?


 about Krias Ha Torah, R. Micha Berger wrote:


1. What was the schedule for Krias Hatorah both before and during the
: first Bais Mikdash?

There were no standardized sedros.

See BQ 82a. Moshe Rabbeinu established leining on Shabbos, Mon and Thu,
and how many aliyos. Ezra added Shabbos minchah and the idea that we
lein in cycles, and not just whatever reading the minyan wanted to.

: 2. According to one source I have, Krias Ha Torah during the time of
: the Tannaim followed the yearly cycle, but changed during the time of
: the Amoraim to a triennial cycle. Is this true and why did this change
: take place?

I think it was by location, not era.

For example, Megillah 29b says the triennial cycle was followed bemaaravah.

: 3. When Jews returned to EY in numbers they opted for the yearly cycle.
: Why didn't the return to the triennial cycle?

They also didn't opt to reintroduce reading with Targum. Only Teimanim
still lein the way we used to.

And without Targum, leining 1/3 of a parashah isn't all that much. Perhaps
that's part of the reason why.

There wasn't really all that standard of a triennial cycle either. Some
read from Shavuos to the third Shavuos. Others completed the Torah twice
per shemittah (every 3-1/2 years, not 3). Etc...

In Binyamin miTudela's day (1170) some congregations in Egypt were still
leining in the 3 year cycle. And apparently the custom wasn't entirely
dead in the Rambam's day either.

But it not only required our 4 special parashios in Adar, the triennial
cycle also had to make special parashios for the tokhachos. It didn't
work as smoothly. A second possible piece to the answer.

But I think the main answer is that most of us have our roots in Bavel,
whether Sepharadi (which is almost entirely Babylonian mesorah) or
Ashkenazi (which is more of a mix). And even if not, from the end of
the Yerushalmi to the end of the geonim, we all turned to Babylonian
rabbanim. The same reason why "The Gemara" is Bavli. That's 800 years
of Babylonian leadership shaping the mesorah.
____________________________________________________

I have posted selections from two seforim that discuss this issue at

https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/levine/krias_ha_torah.pdf


While they agree in part to what Reb Micha wrote,  they do not agree
entirely.  In fact, they do not even agree with each other.  The first
selection from Avraham Ya'ari's sefer Toldos Chag Simchas Torah mentions
two triennial cycles in EY - one for 3 years and one for 3 and a half
years.


The second selection from Yesodos Ha Tefillah by Rav Eleazar Levi does not
mention the 3 and half year cycle at all (as far as I can see).  In
addition this sefer asserts that during the time of the Tanaim	Krias Ha
Torah in EY  was done yearly (He gives no source for this assertion.)  and
that during the time of the Amaraim it changed to the triennial cycle. 
Ya'ari does not mention this at all.


Thus,  as far as I can see,  I still do not have a definitive answer as to
how the Torah was read before the first Bais Ha Mikdash,  during the first
Bais Ha Mikdash, and during the Second Bais Ha Mikdash.


YL


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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 10:24:30 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Questions about Krias Ha Torah



On Tue, Nov 08, 2016 at 02:27:49PM +0000, Professor L. Levine quoted
me and replied:
:> There wasn't really all that standard of a triennial cycle either. Some
:> read from Shavuos to the third Shavuos. Others completed the Torah twice
:> per shemittah (every 3-1/2 years, not 3). Etc...

: I have posted selections from two seforim that discuss this issue at
: https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/levine/krias_ha_torah.pdf

: While they agree in part to what Reb Micha wrote, they do not agree
: entirely. In fact, they do not even agree with each other. The first
: selection from Avraham Ya'ari's sefer Toldos Chag Simchas Torah mentions
: two triennial cycles in EY - one for 3 years and one for 3 and a half
: years.

Which fits what I wrote quite well... As I said, it wasn't all that
standard, and both practices existed.

: The second selection from Yesodos Ha Tefillah by Rav Eleazar Levi
: does not mention the 3 and half year cycle at all (as far as I can see).

Perhaps it was a minority practice, and he was just interested in the
more common minhag.

: In addition this sefer asserts that during the time of the Tanaim Krias
: Ha Torah in EY was done yearly (He gives no source for this assertion.)
: and that during the time of the Amaraim it changed to the triennial cycle.
: Ya'ari does not mention this at all.

I don't see how this can be.

: Thus, as far as I can see, I still do not have a definitive answer
: as to how the Torah was read before the first Bais Ha Mikdash, during
: the first Bais Ha Mikdash, and during the Second Bais Ha Mikdash.

That's because there is no one answer. You're asking for a standard when
there was none. Different shuls or towns had different minhagim. All
people can do is describe their notion of the range. And if one author
thinks some practice is an outlier, far from any of the norms and another
does not, they both could end up describing the same history differently.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
mi...@aishdas.org        far more than our abilities.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - J. K. Rowling
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 11
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 10:19:39 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Beracha on Matzo


On Tue, Nov 08, 2016 at 12:55:34PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: >From today's Daf Hayomi B'Halacha

: The poskim discuss how matzos eaten throughout the year relate to the
: previous halacha. Some poskim consider them mezonos, and this is the
: Sefardic custom.... On Pesach, the proper beracha is hamotzi according
: to all opinions, since matzo is the bread on those days.

We are speaking about crispy matzos, and the mezonos would be because
they raise pas haba bekisnin issues. And like any other PhBbK, they are
mezonos when in a form one wouldn't be qoveia se'udah on, and hamotzi
when they are used like bread.

What I do not understand is why Sepharadim would make a hamotzi on
Pesach, "since matzo is the bread on those days." What about those
Edot for whom crispy matzos never became a norm for Pesach? For them,
Ashkenazi crackers are not the normal bread for Pesach. What am I
missing?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Brains to the lazy
mi...@aishdas.org        are like a torch to the blind --
http://www.aishdas.org   a useless burden.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                 - Bechinas haOlam


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