Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 58

Thu, 19 May 2016

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 18:08:36 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Shiur for Kesem today


On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 12:51:47AM +0300, Ilana Elzufon wrote:
: See Pit'chei Teshuvah 190:10, towards the end, quoting the Chatam Sofer.
: Basically, he points out that ketamim are deRabbanan - and what's more, the
: reason the Rabbis made the gezerah in the first place was because of the
: severity of the laws of taharot...

So the CS holds that kegeris is the limit of the gezeirah, and not just
part of the general "you can be toleh kesamim on anything plausible".
Pishpishin and the shiur of a keturmos (the size of a bean called a
"lupine"?) *is* considered part of that general rule. To the extent
that the Rambam doesn't give it special mention.

Which brings me to the next question... How does the CS know that kegeris
and blaming a ma'akholes is different in kind than the rest of the sugya?
We could deduce from the Rambam, but that just shifts my question up some
centuries.

For example, the Yereim says that the shiur is based on the lice of your
region, and not the same kegeris (about a nickle) of chazal.

Of course (given the above), the CS does say the shiur is a geris,
not tied to the size of engourged lice.

And does that mean that the Yereim (and the mi'ut of contemporary posqim
who hold like him) would say there is no shiur today?

BTW, the PT, #12 says besheim the Raavad that there is no shiur if the
kesem is black, since a ma'akheles stain would always be rad.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 24th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Netzach: When does domination or
Fax: (270) 514-1507        taking control result in balance and harmony?



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Message: 2
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 18:08:39 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kiddush hashem via issur


On 05/17/2016 05:47 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 04:30:39PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : On 05/17/2016 03:54 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> : >And as I repeatedly responded, untrue. A talmid chakham with dirty
> : >clothes (or Rav buying his meat on credit, Yuma 86a) poses a chilul
> : >hasheim because CH*does*  mean "bad PR", vekhein lehefekh -- a qiddush
> : >hasheim is something that draws others to avodas Hashem.
> :
> : Only among those whose values match those of the Torah.
>
> Where does it say that?

It's completely obvious, and doesn't need saying.  It simply can't be
otherwise.


> And who has values that match the Torah's who would judge the Torah
> by how clean some TC's frock is?

Apparently so.  Otherwise what guide do you have?  Why do you assume pagans
esteem cleanliness, when for every one that does so there's probably another
who esteems filth and despises cleanliness?


> : >Later in that same sugya in Yuma, Yitzchaq od R' Yannai's BM says,
> : >"Anyone whose peers are embarassed of his reputation is a chilul hasheim,
>
> : Emphasis on "his peers".  Those who hold the same values.
>
> The reputation that causes the embarassment is the CH. And the reputation
> is not limited to those peers.

But non-peers may well think highly of him for it.   Think of the "game"
community that has formed online in the last 20 years, and what sort of
traits they admire and despise in a person.   A reputation that would
embarass a t"ch's peers would be lionised in those circles.


> : >and R' Nachman bar Yitzchaq, such as if people say, "May the L-rd forgive
> : >Peloni.
>
> : Again we see that we are talking only about those who believe in Hashem and
> : His value system.   If people say "may Baal forgive Peloni", that is a
> : *kiddush* haShem.
>
> ??? Every monotheist follows the Torah? What if his behavior is a turn-off
> to Tzeduqim?

Then it's a good bet that it's a kiddush haShem.


> Besides, who said the person's master / lord is ours? Other than my
> capitalization and hyphen, that's not a compelled reading.

Actually the gemara's lashon is may *his* Lord forgive him.  But it's
obviously being said by people who know what Hashem's standards are.



> : >Abayei then says this is like the beraisa on the pasuq "ve'ahavta
> : >es H' Elokekha" -- that sheim shamayim should be beloved because of you.
> :
> : It should be obvious that this is only among those who have a correct
> : value system.
>
> You're inserting your conclusion into a sentence that has no such
> limitation.

It *has* to have it, because we have voluminous *evidence* of what KH/CH
is, and it's emphatically *not* that sheim shomayim should be beloved by
those "who call bad good and good bad, who establish darkness as light
and light as darkness, bitter as sweet and sweet as bitter".


-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis



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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 17 May 2016 18:57:58 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kiddush hashem via issur


Who is the audience to chilul hasheim in Yesodei haTorah 5:11? "Haberios".

Ad sheyimtz'u HAKOL meqlsin oso, ve'ohavim oso, umis'avim lema'asav.
Harei zeh qideish as hasheim...

"Hakol" is all who? Not all the berios, since that's all he (repeatedly)
describes as the observers?

-micha



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Message: 4
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 12:35:18 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] meat and fish


A friend of mine said he listen to a shiur of Rav Herschel Schacter on
yutorah and he noted that the Rambam doesn;t mention anything about not
eating meat and fish together. Therefore, RHS pakened that anyone who feels
that there is no health problem can eat the two together

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Message: 5
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 12:28:50 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] how to fix a mamzer


> I don't think there is such a distinction. Yichus determines whether they
> are your children or not.

Well, yes, that's what yichus *is*. >>

Not necessarily. yichus refers to marriage. It might have nothing to do
with mitzvot like honoring one's parents and other connections between
parents and child

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Message: 6
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 12:32:53 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] how to fix a mamzer


<<particularly in the USA, where the 13th amendment only bans
*involuntary* servitude.
>>

RYBS is well to have said that Lincoln freed the slaves and the whole idea
of shifcha today is ridiculous

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Message: 7
From: Mordechai Harris
Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 07:28:19 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] meat and fish


See:
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.
cfm/735391/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/eating-fish-and-meat-together/
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Message: 8
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 07:10:33 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] how to fix a mamzer


On 05/18/2016 05:28 AM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
>> I don't think there is such a distinction. Yichus determines whether they
>> are your children or not.
>
> Well, yes, that's what yichus *is*. >>
>
> Not necessarily. yichus refers to marriage. It might have nothing to
> do with mitzvot like honoring one's parents and other connections
> between parents and child

What are you talking about?  What does yichus have to do with marriage?
Yichus means genealogy, i.e. who is whose child.  Nothing more or less.

Of course marriage is an occasion when one is *interested* in yichus,
just as one is interested in health, character, and all kinds of other
things; would you say that "health refers to marrriage, and might have
nothing to do with topics like strength, diet, medical treatment, or
life expectancy"?!


-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis



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Message: 9
From: M Cohen
Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 10:27:34 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] how to 'fix' a mamzer


RBW asked.. L'maaseh, does anyone today check to see if a woman wanting to
marry a cohen has a status of a zona 
(other than checking if she is a convert or divorcee)?

Ans. Yes, all BT girls are asked 'as discreetly as possible' if they are
mutar to a cohen or not when in the shidduch parsha.
(bc rov are not eligible)

L'maaseh, today a cohen basically cannot marry almost all BT girls, and must
look towards FFB shidduchim

This 'fact of life' is common knowledge among BT kallah teachers.

At this pt, we do assume that FFB girls are mutar to a cohen (unless they
bring it up otherwise)

Some stats: 
The average age Americans lose their virginities is 17.1 for both men and
women
The CDC also reports that virgins make up 12.3 percent of females aged 20 to
24. 
That number drops below 5 percent aged 25 to 29
Statistically, if you didn't have sex in your teen years, you're in the
minority.


The interesting/disturbing problem is that many (rov?) BT cohens are not
probably not cohens.
(and actually w be mutar to a zona, mutar l'tamai l'masim, etc)

If the BT cohens mother grew up post 1960s/70s/80s or so (and became BT post
high school), 
it's probably a chazakah that she was m'zaneh with a goy before marriage to
the BTs father.

It's unlikely that the BT boy is willing to ask his mother if she was
m'zaneh with a goy before marriage to the BTs father.
(and even if she says she wasn't, is she be believed against the chazaka?)

I personally heard from a major chareidi posek that for this reason a cohen
s l'chatchila not go out w a BT cohens daughter, 
if the parents were married before they became frum and she was a teenager
post 1960s/70s/80s or so
(bc of the possibility that she is actually the daughter of a chalalah who
was forbidden to marry her father)

As the time line moves forward, it's hard to understand why BT cohens are
considered cohenim and allowed to do birkas cohanim etc

Mordechai cohen




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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 12:51:33 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] how to fix a mamzer


On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 12:28pm IDT, R Eli Turkel wrote:
:> I don't think there is such a distinction. Yichus determines whether they
:> are your children or not.
: 
:> Well, yes, that's what yichus *is*.
: 
: Not necessarily. yichus refers to marriage...

I assume you mean: Yichus refers to a persons lineage WRT whom they and
their descendents may marry. Do I understand correctly?

:                                             It might have nothing to do
: with mitzvot like honoring one's parents and other connections between
: parents and child.

Is there a source for making such a chiluq, or are you just posing a hava amina for discusion.

I was told lehalkhah ulemasseh that an adoptive child's honoring his
parents is a qiyum of kavod harav, not kibud av va'eim. So for KAvA,
some kind of genetic parentage is involved.


At 12:32pm IDT, RET continued (on a second aspect of the discussion):
: RYBS is well to have said that Lincoln freed the slaves and the whole idea
: of shifcha today is ridiculous

I would like to have the grapevine confirmed on this one. But in any
case...

When slavery is illegal, what's the halachic line between avadim and
shevuyim?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 25th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Netzach: When is domination or
Fax: (270) 514-1507                          taking control too extreme?



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Message: 11
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 13:02:27 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] how to 'fix' a mamzer


On 05/18/2016 10:27 AM, M Cohen wrote:
> L'maaseh, today a cohen basically cannot marry almost all BT girls, and must
> look towards FFB shidduchim
>
> This 'fact of life' is common knowledge among BT kallah teachers.
>
> At this pt, we do assume that FFB girls are mutar to a cohen (unless they
> bring it up otherwise)

But what about chalalos?   An FFB girl may very well be a chalalah because
her great-grandfather was a cohen, and her great-grandmother was someone
he shouldn't have married.  Who keeps track of that, let alone after several
generations?


> As the time line moves forward, it's hard to understand why BT cohens
> are considered cohenim and allowed to do birkas cohanim etc

Not just BTs, as I pointed out above.  And indeed many poskim do say that
this is why our cohanim only duchen on yomtov; since they have no yichus,
and can't know whether they're really entitled to duchen, they should avoid
doing so except when it would be blatantly obvious, and would thus cause a
pegam on their family.   (This is a based on a gemara that a safek cohen
would collect terumah only once a year, to keep up his name.)


-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis



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Message: 12
From: M Cohen
Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 13:10:20 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] how to 'fix' a mamzer


RZS wrote ..An FFB girl may very well be a chalalah because her
great-grandfather was a cohen, and her great-grandmother was someone he
shouldn't have married..

Ans. But these FFB girls DO have a chezkas kashrus.

My point was that todays female BTs, and male BTs descended from cohanim
don't have that chazaka anymore

Mc




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Message: 13
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 13:01:20 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] meat and fish


On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 12:35:18PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: A friend of mine said he listen to a shiur of Rav Herschel Schacter on
: yutorah and he noted that the Rambam doesn;t mention anything about not
: eating meat and fish together. Therefore, RHS pakened that anyone who feels
: that there is no health problem can eat the two together

In terms of acharonim, it's the Yad Efraim (#116) CS (shu"t #101)
prohibiting and the MA (OC 173) permitting.

The MA says nishtanah hateva.

The CS suggests explanations for the Rambam, including

1- The gemara was only concerned about a specific breed of fish which
we don't eat anymore.

2- The Rambam omits it as he does any other piece of medical
advice that doesn't work.

According to R' Avraham b haRambam, nishtanah hateva means the scientific
theory has changed. WHch would make this idea a paralel to the MA's
reasoning.

The YE lists numerous posqim who prohibit, appealing to authority
rather than giving a sevara


But I think there is more to the story than included in this report.
It's non-trivial to tell people -- especially Ashkenazim -- to follow
the Rambam against both the SA (including the Rama) and commonly
accepted practice.

I am not questioning the conclusion, I just think we are missing
critical pieces of the argument.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 25th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Netzach: When is domination or
Fax: (270) 514-1507                          taking control too extreme?



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Message: 14
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 13:35:07 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] how to fix a mamzer


On 05/18/2016 12:51 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> When slavery is illegal, what's the halachic line between avadim and
> shevuyim?

That's discussed at length in the article that was forwarded.  Basically
since avdus is a matter of dinei momonos it would seem to depend on dina
demalchusa.   But my question is on the metzius in the USA; I question the
assumption that voluntary slavery is illegal here.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis



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Message: 15
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 18 May 2016 14:36:41 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kiddush hashem via issur


Two more examples of qiddush hasheim being about behavior in front of
anyone.

1- Geneivas aku"m through circumvention is a lack of qiddush hasheim (R'
Aqiva, BQ 113a)

2- Orechos Tzadiqim, sha'ar haEmes, calls getting the nations to say
"Berikh E-lohehon diYhuda'i!" to be a qidush hasheim. The example is
from Shimon ben Shetach requiring his talmidim to return a gem to a
Yishmaeli when it was lifnim mishuras hadin. (TY BM 2:5, vilna 8a)

(Recall this is pre-Islam, the Yishmaeli was aku"m.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha



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Message: 16
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 11:26:47 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] how to fix a mamzer


In the shiur of R Zilberstein last night he discussed the situation of a
parent (usually father) who deserts a child in the hospital or even leaves
the family.

One case involved a father who showed up before the daughter's marriage and
insisted that his name appear on the wedding invitation. R. Zilberstein
paskened that the father who abandoned the family has absolutely no rights
to anything. If the mother remarried then the adoptive father has the right
to all decisions. Kibud Av ve-Em applies to the adoptive father and not the
biological father that abandoned the family. Hakarot hatov is for the help
of the adoptive family and biology contributes nothing.

Though not the topic of the shiur if the mother is a shifcha or a nonJew
the father (who stays with the family) is entitled to all rights of a
father including kibud Av independent of any halachot of yichus. He is not
worse than an adoptive parent (my conclusion not discussed in the shiur)

The only exception to this rule is sitting shiva. One is required to sit
shiva for the biological father and may sit shiva for the adoptive father.
When questioned he explained that not sitting shiva for a father even if he
did nothing for the family might hint of mamzerut

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Message: 17
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 05:59:46 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] how to fix a mamzer


On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 09:32:58PM -0700, Adar Jacob wrote:
: As I recall, maybe about 20 years ago, talmiday hachamim were bruiting
: it about that we should NOT check individuals but assume botel b'rov
: for immigrants to Israel or any group of Jews.

This isn't an issue of rov. There is a gezeiras hakasuv that kivan
shenitma, nitma -- a family in which the mamzeirus got forgotten must
be left that way. One is *prohibited* against digging up lost claims
of mamzeirus.

I think of it in similar terms to how an afflicted person isn't a
metzorah until the kohein says so. Here too, the biological parentage
is the primary factor in determining mamzeirus, but apparently not
the only one. We must also be aware of that parentage. And if hot, the
person isn't halachically a mamzer and we wrong him by finding out his
biological state and making him subject to the strictures.

It is only a foundling (asufi) or someone who can't identify who his
father is (shetuqi) who are *derabbanan* held under doubt. (De'oraisa,
only a definite mamzer is assur.)

Not cases of needing to dig up history of people who think they're kosher.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 26th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Netzach: When is domination or taking
Fax: (270) 514-1507         control just a way of abandoning one's self?


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