Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 50

Thu, 05 May 2016

• 1. women cutting hair in the omer (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Avoid situations that embarrass (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher!)
• 3. Re: minag avos (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Rav Sharki on university students (Akiva Miller)
• 5. Re: chumrah and kulah (Ben Waxman)
• 6. Fwd: yom hazikaron (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: kitniyos (Ben Waxman)
• 8. Re: chumrah and kulah (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Spring Mesorah Challenges ? ????? ????? ??? ??? (Lawrence Levine)
• 10. Re: Rav Sharki on university students (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: chumrah and kulah (Micha Berger)
• 12. Tzedukim (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Spring Mesorah Challenges ? ????? ????? ??? ??? (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: Tzedukim (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: Tzedukim (Lisa Liel)

I just saw that ROY paskens that women are allowed to cut their cut during
the sefirah.
Does anyone know if this is widely accepted?

-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20160504/7401b9e6/attachment-0001.htm>

The CC did not offer so much as a cup of tea to his guest, so as not to
embarrass RCB by compelling him to decline.

A story that displays a slightly different perspective - the visitor who
insisted on drinking his tea in the host's Succah when the host who was not
enjoying the best of health was entertaining the guest in his house. The
host accompanied his guest explaining to the now uncomfortable guest, I am
exempt from the mitzvah of Succah but obligated in the mitzvah of
Hachnossas Orchim
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20160505/c46327e0/attachment-0001.htm>

On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 08:34:09PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: Interesting article to read (I have the PDF) - Joseph Davis - "The
: Reception of the Shulchan Arukh and the Formation of Ashkenazic Jewish
: Identity". Points to correlations between codifications in the "outside
: world" and Halacha as well as moving from geographic minhag/identity to
: others subunits (e.g. ethnic).

I am curious to see that article, because I would have thought the
causality was the reverse. The Rama knew of an Ashkenazi mesorah that had
numerous differences with Sepharadi pesaq since well before the SA. It was
on that basis thyat he was able to categorize the SA as "their" rulings.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 11th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Gevurah: What is imposing about
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            strict justice?

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> A world without Nazis is a world of robots, not people. There would
> be no moral agents for good to happen to. And thus no real good in
> the universe at all.
>
> But it only explains suffering that is caused by the evil people do.
> Not congenital birth defects and other such naturally caused suffering.

I would respectfully offer a different opinion. I am not trying to change
anyone's mind on this -- after all, Pirkei Avos puts these topics
categorically outside our understanding -- but if anyone *wants* their mind
to be changed, perhaps my ideas will be helpful.

RMB's reisha is full of mussar. It focuses on a person's mind. Is he
free-willed, or is he a robot? If there's no path to choosing evil, then
whatever one does is automatically good by default. Such goodness is not
the sort of good that builds character. It is a worthless good, and hence
not a real good at all. But suppose we leave the world of mussar, where my
goal is to grow spiritually by becoming a better person, and improving the
relationship between myself and Hashem.

Instead, let's focus on getting more social. It's not that I want to
improve myself, but that I want to do things that other people will benefit
and get pleasure from.

In a world where people are busy interacting, but the laws of nature
prohibit Nazis, the problem is not that good doesn't *exist*. The problem
is that good isn't recognized or appreciated. Everyone is always doing nice
things to everyone else, so much so that the beneficiaries don't notice it.
Not because they are ungrateful, but because they literally don't notice it
-- they have nothing to compare it to. This is how the world runs. What
else might one expect? And THAT's why there is "no real good in the
universe at all."

Ad caan, RMB's reisha. But this only explains suffering that is caused by
the evil people do. Evil -- or at least the potential for it -- is
necessary so that we can appreciate the good. What about congenital birth
defects and other such naturally caused suffering? My first reaction is to
give the same answer as above: No one will appreciate good health unless
bad health is a possibility.

And then I feel ashamed of my insensitivity, my hardheartedness, my
callousness. How can I not cry for the babies struggling in pain, just so I
can score some points in this discussion?

But, truth be told, that insensitivity reared its head many paragraphs ago,
when we first contemplated "a world without Nazis". Are the victims of
"naturally caused suffering" entitled to more consideration than the
victims of Nazi-caused suffering? I don't think so. My heart goes out to
both of them, to all of them, and I feel guilty, wondering about where my
heart is when I thank G-d for the good He has given me.

I don't know if I've gone off topic or not. I guess my point has been
merely to illustrate that there's little or no difference between a world
where there are no Nazis, and a world where there are no birth defects.

Akiva Miller
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20160505/e2e24784/attachment-0001.htm>

On 5/3/2016 8:12 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> In a recent shiur Rav Michael Avraham has attacked several chumrot on 
> the grounds that one is frequently a chumra on one side is a kula on 
> the other.
>
> Some examples (mine not necessarily from RMA)
>
> 1) in out recent discussion of kitniyot. In many cases one can be 
> machmir about the various questions we have raised and live without 
> kitniyot for a few days. However, in other cases it may take away from 
> simchat yomtov especially when it prevents families (or friends)  from 
> joining together for a meal. If the parents of a Sefardi son in law 
> can provide him with halaq meat 52 weeks out of a year, he can deal 
> with their rice issue one week a year.

I know that I sound like a broken record but . . .

We have a long history of chumrot in kashrut and a long history of 
dealing with them. Kintiyot can be dealth with, halachakly and 
culinarily, just like almost all of these issues.  Having an in law with 
food allergies is going to present much more of a challenge to a host 
than having an in law who doesn't eat rice.
>
>
> 4) Several Bnei Brak poskim were machmir in not accepting DNA for most 
> halachot (siman benoni) even in cases where the scientific evidence is 
> overwhelming. RMA pointed out that not accepting DNA for paternity 
> might be depriving a son from his rightful inheritance. Everyone 
> agrees that in monetary matters there is no chumra/kulah. However RMA 
> points out that this is true even in many yoreh deah questions as 
> inheritance rights. Releasing an agunah from her chains is also 
> important even when it relies on DNA evidence.
>
For every inheritance case that would be solved, we'd probably be 
declaring someone else to be a mamzer if we accept DNA. Is it worth it?

Ben

On the importance of standing during the siren on yom hazikaron by Rav Stav
(Hebrew)
http://www.ypt.co.il/beit-hamidrash/view.asp?id=4174

on aveilut vs chol hamoed during sefira by Rav Cherlow (Hebrew)
http://www.ypt.co.il/beit-hamidrash/view.asp?id=5629
-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20160505/5815a06c/attachment-0001.htm>

Rav Tawil was basing himself on a psak given by Rav Ovadia Yosef, tz"l, 
which is summarized here:

http://halachayomit.co.il/he/Default.aspx?HalachaID=3938

KT

Ben

On 5/4/2016 3:26 PM, elazar teitz via Avodah wrote:
> ?  ?  ?  Whether or not the bread is muktza, it certainly was not yet 
> repurchased from the non-Jew who bought it on erev Pesach; and thus, 
> even if there are no Orach Chaim questions about eating it, it would 
> seem that there is still a Choshen Mishpat problem.
> ?
> EMT

For every inheritance case that would be solved, we'd probably be 
declaring someone else to be a mamzer if we accept DNA. Is it worth it?

Ben
_____________________________________________
IMHO DNA is a real Pandora's box which it seems that poskim are taking an
approach that to an outsider might be viewed as pragmatic (vs
intellectually mandated) by accepting it as a secondary sirgn but not
primary so as to specifically not get into the parentage issue.  What will
happen when everyone's dna/genetic map is available feom a simple stick
test?
KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

Please see

http://tinyurl.com/z5ccs4e
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20160505/14af5a70/attachment-0001.htm>

On Thu, May 05, 2016 at 07:50:01AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: I would respectfully offer a different opinion. I am not trying to change
: anyone's mind on this -- after all, Pirkei Avos puts these topics
: categorically outside our understanding -- but if anyone *wants* their mind
: to be changed, perhaps my ideas will be helpful.

I am not in your target audience, as I am happy with my current answer
and thus probably too closed minded on this question to be influenced,
but...

: RMB's reisha is full of mussar. It focuses on a person's mind. Is he
: free-willed, or is he a robot? If there's no path to choosing evil, then
: whatever one does is automatically good by default. Such goodness is not
: the sort of good that builds character. It is a worthless good, and hence
: not a real good at all...

Not my intent. Let me explain what I was trying to say from a different
direction.

What makes free will possible? The fact that we can think about thinking.
Bechira chofshi and being aware of one's own thoughts and feelings (or a
subset of them) go hand-in-hand. When we think about and make decisions
based on that metacognizent "inputs" we are able to change how we think
and truly exercise BC.

I think this underlize REED's concept of a nequdas habechirah. It is
only at the "battlefront" between two warring desires/drives that BC
comes into play because it is only there that the decision happens slow
even to occur consciously.

You might recall that when we discussed tza'ar baalei chaim (in at least
2 iterations), I suggested that while animals feel pain, they have no
"I" about which they could think "I am in pain". Pain, but without a
critical element that turns it into true suffering. I gave a neurological
argument -- animals lack the part of prefrontal cortext we use to do
metacognizance, so why assume they can? Maybe when it comes to animals,
the Behaviorists are right.

But I also made a hashkafic argument. If a thinking being could be aware
of the thinking itself, and think about thinking, it would have free
will. Since only people have BC, which in the opinion of many (including
the Meshekh Chokhmah) is that very tzelem E-lokim, they can't be self-aware
of their thought. Pain as a stimulus away from something, but not
"Oy am I in pain!" of true suffering on a human level.

So I was making a philosophical point about the goodness. Not that it
lacks worth of purpose, but the ability to enjoy good and the ability
to make decisions go hand-in-hand.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 12th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Gevurah: What aspect of judgment
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  forces the "judge" into submission?

On Thu, May 05, 2016 at 05:02:38AM +0200, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
: For every inheritance case that would be solved, we'd probably be
: declaring someone else to be a mamzer if we accept DNA. Is it worth
: it?

Mamzeirus is not a good example for a general discussion of chumeros.
Kivan denitma nitma. There is a gezeiras hakasuv that we are to ignore
most sefeiqos -- safeiq mamzer in a yichus-ly kosher community, or a
mamzer in a safeiq community.

(See <http://www.dafyomi.co.il/kidushin/halachah/kd-hl-075.htm> for
a nice discussion.)

I think it would be assur to check mamzeirus using DNA, except in those
few cases where we otherwise are chosheish for the safeiq anyway, like
a shetuqi or asufi.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 12th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Gevurah: What aspect of judgment
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  forces the "judge" into submission?

H/T Mosaic Magazine

See <h
ttp://www.bibleodyssey.org/people/related-articles/sadducees.aspx>:

    Bible Odyssey
    Who Were the Sadducees?
    by Michael L. Satlow

    ...
    The Sadducees' origins are uncertain. A few sources link them to the
    Jerusalem priest, with some scholars suggesting that the Greek term
    Sadducee is derived from the Hebrew Zadoq, the name of the high
    priest at the time of King David (1Kings 1:39). Later sources also
    link the Sadducees to the priesthood (for example, Acts 4:1).

    However, the Sadducees first appear in the historical record not
    as priests but as a political group. The Jewish historian Josephus
    mentions them in the context of John Hyrcanus, the Hasmonean high
    priest and ruler of Judah from 135-104 B.C.E. (Antiquities 13.10.5-6).
    According to Josephus, a guest at a banquet for the Pharisees accused
    Hyrcanus of being a [mamzer], unfit for the high priesthood. In the
    uproar that ensued, a Sadducee convinced Hyrcanus to abandon the
    Pharisees for the Sadducees.

    Whether true or not, this story might point to the Sadducees'
    origin as a political party allied with the Hasmoneans. Josephus
    tantalizingly mentions that the Sadducees ascribe authority to
    Scripture, not to the ancestral traditions handed down by the
    Pharisees:
    ...

I think it takes a Xian with their "Render of Caesar" that eventually led
to Separation of Church and State to assume that politics vs religion i
a dichotomy.

Also, what kind of news is in that the Chashmonaim were in league with
the Tzeduqim? Regardless of Josephus's story, why wouldn'tthe family
that held the power of both Kohein Gadol and Melekh want to deprecate
any form of Judaism that would make them share power with the rabbinate?

Can the more historically informed please comment if this post is a
non-story (which finding it in Mosaic Magazine led me to doubt) or
what the chiddush is here?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 12th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Gevurah: What aspect of judgment
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  forces the "judge" into submission?

On 05/05/2016 10:24 AM, Lawrence Levine via Avodah wrote:
> Please see
> http://tinyurl.com/z5ccs4e

1) Every Ashkenazi siddur says that in summer we say vesein brocho and (in
places where it's customary) morid hatol, and in winter we say tal umotor
and mashiv horuach.   Since we are now saying the former, it is summer,
and wishing each other a good summer is therefore appropriate.

2) There is no pressure on anyone to bake a shlissel challah.  The blogger
is engaging in a fantasy so he can rant about it.  Rather, every year we
are subjected to ranting from opponents of this custom who can't bear the
thought that some people do have it.  The blogger has his mesorah, and
good on him for adhering to it, but it is irrelevant to the vast majority
of us who do not share it.

Those who don't have this particular custom of  are free not to do it,
and nobody will denounce them for it; but they must have the same respect
for those who do it, whether because their ancestors did it as far back
as anyone knows, or because they heard about it last week and decided it
sounded like a nice thing to do.

-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

On 05/05/2016 12:39 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
>  According to Josephus, a guest at a banquet for the Pharisees accused
>  Hyrcanus of being a [mamzer], unfit for the high priesthood.

He was not accused of being a mamzer but a chalal, because his mother had
once been kidnapped and was thus unfit to be married a kohen.   We don't
need to go to Josephus for this story, it's a braisa in Kiddushin 66a.


> I think it takes a Xian with their "Render of Caesar" that eventually
> led to Separation of Church and State to assume that politics vs religion
> is a dichotomy.

The article makes the same point: "In antiquity, there was no neat division
between politics and religion".



-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
z...@sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis

On 5/5/2016 7:39 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> See <http://www.bibleodyssey.org/people/related-articles/sadducees.aspx
> >:
...
>      by Michael L. Satlow
...
>      ...
>      The Sadducees' origins are uncertain. A few sources link them to the
>      Jerusalem priest, with some scholars suggesting that the Greek term
>      Sadducee is derived from the Hebrew Zadoq...

The myth that the Tzedukim got their name from Tzadok the Kohen Gadol 
has zero basis to it.  Except maybe the quote from Acts, which has no 
weight.  The origin of the Tzedukim appears in Avot d'Rabbi Natan, where 
we find that the eponymous Tzadok was one of the talmidim of Antigonus 
Ish Socho.

>      However, the Sadducees first appear in the historical record not
>      as priests but as a political group. The Jewish historian Josephus
>      mentions them in the context of John Hyrcanus, the Hasmonean high
>      priest and ruler of Judah from 135-104 B.C.E. (Antiquities 13.10.5-6).
>      According to Josephus, a guest at a banquet for the Pharisees accused
>      Hyrcanus of being a [mamzer]...

Also, despite Josephus's claims, the accusation wasn't that he was a 
mamzer; it was that he was a chalal.

The article is a non-story.

Lisa

[To be fair without bothering to post a full reply for something off-topic:
The original had a word I wasn't comfortable repeating on-list,
starts with a "b", so I assumed the usual back-translation to the Hebrew.
I have no idea what Josephus actually wrote, nor do I expect a Xian to
bother explaining chalal rather than use a general term for what used
to be called an "illegitimate" child. So I  don't know if it's Josephus's
claims that's off or a miscommunication caused by my trying to be
overly frummy.     -micha]


------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)