Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 6

Tue, 19 Jan 2016

• 1. Ashkenazim and the Yerushalmi, another example (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Ashkenazim and the Yerushalmi, another example (Richard Wolpoe)
• 3. A Silver Sheqel (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Musical instruments in shul (Akiva Miller)
• 5. Re: Inifinite Value of Human Life (Akiva Miller)
• 6. Og (Simi Peters)
• 7. Re: Og (Micha Berger)
• 8. Hezekiah seal (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Will the real Rabbi Yishmael ben Elisha please stand up? (Arie Folger)

RRW introduced us to the idea/theory/shitah that the minhag and pesaq of
Ashk reflects the fact that more of benei EY ended up in Ashk (via Rome or
the greater Provence - Languedoc region). Whereas Seph is more exclusively
Babylonian, and therefore closer in practice to the Bavli and geonim.

And indeed Nusach Ashk, where it differs from Seph, most often matches
nusachos found in the Y-mi, Cairo Geniza, and the like, has piyut from EY,
and many practices that do more closely fit the Y-mi or midrashei halakhah
than the Bavli. (Being meiqil on mayim acharonim, for example; the Bavli
gives two reasons, one of them is a comparison to mayim rishonim. The
Y-mi only gives the other reason -- melach sedomis, which does not grace
our tables.)

Well, I'm once again touching on an old topic because of AhS Yomi.

YD 92:23-24 (WikiSource <http://j.mp/1RpZyrl>) quotes the Tur who brings
down a machloqes as to whether chatichah na'aseh neveilah (CNN; pardon
the arconym) applies to all prohibitions, or only to basar bechalav
(BbC). After all, BbC is only assur in a mixture, so it makes sense
that the whole piece could be considered a mixture. Whereas why should a
piece of meat that has cheilev in it be assur in other parts of the meat?

The Rambam and the BY limit the CNN to BbC. (And the Ramban and Rashba
agree.)
But Rabbeinu tam and all the other Ballei Tosafos, Mordechai and Semag
believe CNN for all issuirim.

Their proof is the Y-mi Orlah 2:5, referring to a mixture of terumah
and chulin to which more chulin is then added afterward. Rebbe says the
terumah is not mevutal until there is enough added to be mevatel the
original mixture.

Ashkenazim taking the Y-mi into account where the Seph pesaq doesn't.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I long to accomplish a great and noble task,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it is my chief duty to accomplish small
http://www.aishdas.org   tasks as if they were great and noble.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Helen Keller

TY R Micha
It gets a bit more complicated
See the Rif and Ran - first daf in dappei harif - on Ta'anis about geshem
and matar. Etc. The Rif weaves the Ylmi and the bavli almost seemlessly. Or
Zaru'a and others use that template even when nit picking on details.

It is clear though than minhag E"Y is a big influence on Ashknez, yet much is post Ylmi stuff EG kallier,etc.

Sent?from?my?BlackBerry?10?smartphone.
? Original Message ?
From: Micha Berger
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 10:53
To: Avodah Torah Discussion Group
Cc: Richard Wolpoe; Richard Wolpoe
Subject: Ashkenazim and the Yerushalmi, another example

RRW introduced us to the idea/theory/shitah that the minhag and pesaq of
Ashk reflects the fact that more of benei EY ended up in Ashk (via Rome or
the greater Provence - Languedoc region). Whereas Seph is more exclusively
Babylonian, and therefore closer in practice to the Bavli and geonim.

And indeed Nusach Ashk, where it differs from Seph, most often matches
nusachos found in the Y-mi, Cairo Geniza, and the like, has piyut from EY,
and many practices that do more closely fit the Y-mi or midrashei halakhah
than the Bavli. (Being meiqil on mayim acharonim, for example; the Bavli
gives two reasons, one of them is a comparison to mayim rishonim. The
Y-mi only gives the other reason -- melach sedomis, which does not grace
our tables.)

Well, I'm once again touching on an old topic because of AhS Yomi.

YD 92:23-24 (WikiSource <http://j.mp/1RpZyrl>) quotes the Tur who brings
down a machloqes as to whether chatichah na'aseh neveilah (CNN; pardon
the arconym) applies to all prohibitions, or only to basar bechalav
(BbC). After all, BbC is only assur in a mixture, so it makes sense
that the whole piece could be considered a mixture. Whereas why should a
piece of meat that has cheilev in it be assur in other parts of the meat?

The Rambam and the BY limit the CNN to BbC. (And the Ramban and Rashba
agree.)
But Rabbeinu tam and all the other Ballei Tosafos, Mordechai and Semag
believe CNN for all issuirim.

Their proof is the Y-mi Orlah 2:5, referring to a mixture of terumah
and chulin to which more chulin is then added afterward. Rebbe says the
terumah is not mevutal until there is enough added to be mevatel the
original mixture.

Ashkenazim taking the Y-mi into account where the Seph pesaq doesn't.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger I long to accomplish a great and noble task,
mi...@aishdas.org but it is my chief duty to accomplish small
http://www.aishdas.org tasks as if they were great and noble.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Helen Keller

Seen on Areivim...

On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 11:07am IST, Eli Turkel via Areivim wrote:
:> It is also of interest that all the Chashmanoim coins were bronze
:> (or lead). Silver coins were the ones issued in Tyre by nonJewish
:> sources. So the weight of the half-shekel coin use in the Temple
:> was not set by Chazal but by outside sources. Indeed archaelogists
:> have found near the western wall Tyrian half shekel coins.

On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 2:45:11pm IST, Lisa Liel via Areivim wrote:
: Where do you think the Tyrians got that?  It was from us.

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 4:20pm IST, Eli Turkel via Areivim wrote:
> based on what evidence?
> Again there had been no Jewish silver coins for centuries. These
> coins bore the likeness of the Phoenician
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia> god Melqart
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melqart> or Baal
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal> (for use in the bet hamikdash!!!)

> see for more information
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrian_shekel

Start with Avraham discussing "arba mei'os sheqel kesef" (23:15). Even if
not a minted coin, there was still a sheqel weight of silver standardized
-- "oveir lasokher" -- for use as money well before matan Torah, never
mind the Phoenicians and Tyre.

By the time we get to the midbar, there are apparently two definition of
"shqel", or more likely range of commonly used values, which is why
Vayaqhel, Bechuqosei, and Naso all have to talk about "sheqel besheqel
haqodesh" or "sheqel kesef besheqel haqodesh".

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             None of us will leave this place alive.
mi...@aishdas.org        All that is left to us is
http://www.aishdas.org   to be as human as possible while we are here.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Anonymous MD, while a Nazi prisoner

I thank everyone for their responses.

I knew about the abhorrence to organ playing in reform temples, but I had
thought it was related to reform's lack of belief in Moshiach. Now I see
that it is more part of their church imitations.

Akiva Miller
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R' Micha Berger wrote:

> ... when you discussed saving chayei sha'ah on Shabbos, I believe
> it was besheim R' Henkin that you said that human life has
> infinite value. And therefore there is no less reason for chilul
> Shabbos for chayei sha'ah than for chayei olam.
>
> ...
>
> Or do we mean lav davqa infinity, just "very very large"?

From the very beginning of your post, I presumed that you were indeed using
the word "infinite" as a shorthand for "very very large". But now that
you've asked the question, it is clear that you are unsure, so I would like
to share my thoughts on this.

"Infinity" MUST NOT be taken literally here. IT MUST mean "very very
large". Nothing is infinite except Hashem. Finished. End of story.

But if you need a more legalistic answer, I'll point out that if human life
really did have infinite value, then saving that life would trump avodah
zara, which of course it doesn't. Saving a life doesn't even trump arayos.
(I'd mention murder too, but that could lead to headache-inducing circular
logic.)

So when someone says that life is of infinite value, what he really means
is "very very valuable."

Akiva Miller
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Og is not strictly human.  He is the last of the Refaim--an antediluvian
man/ben elohim, hence his size and longevity.  See Rashi on Bereshit 13:14.

 

Kol tuv,

Simi Peters

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On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 01:08:58AM +0200, Simi Peters via Avodah wrote:
: Og is not strictly human.  He is the last of the Refaim--an antediluvian
: man/ben elohim, hence his size and longevity.  See Rashi on Bereshit 13:14.

The question was more how someone his size could possibly survive, if
basically humanoid in shape, and if made from basically the same stuff
as other terrestrial animals. I think it would require suspending the
laws of physics, although that's not off the table.

I think the physical limit is less than 9 ft.
https://youtu.be/DkzQxw16G9w

It's more of a mechanical engineering question than one of taxonomy.

Gut Voch!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
mi...@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

<<nakh.>>

where in Tanach does it give the design or weight of the shekel? That coins
called shekel
existed for centuries is clear and was used by many people including by
Jews in the Tanach.
From wikipedia (shekel)

The earliest shekels were a unit of weight, used as other units such as
grams and troy ounces for trading before the advent of coins. Coins were
used and may have been invented by the early Anatolian
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Anatolians> traders who stamped
their marks to avoid weighing each time used. Early coins were money
stamped with an official seal to certify their weight. Silver ingots, some
with markings were issued. Later authorities decided who designed coins.[3]
<htt
ps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekel#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDIA1964-3>Herodo
tus
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus> states that the first coinage was
issued by Croesus <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croesus>, King of Lydia
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia>, spreading to the golden Daric
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daric> (worth 20 *sigloi*
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_coinage> or shekel),[4]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekel#cite_note-4> issued by the Persian
Empire <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Empire> and the Silver
Athenian obol <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obolus> and drachma
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drachma>.

As with many ancient units, the shekel had a variety of values depending on
era, government and region; weights between 9 and 17 grams, and values of
11, 14, and 17 grams are common. A shekel is a gold or silver coin equal in
weight to one of these units. It is especially the chief silver coin of the
Hebrews.

The shekel was common among western Semitic peoples
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_peoples>. Moabites
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moab>, Edomites
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edom> and Phoenicians
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia> used the shekel, the latter as
coins and weights. Punic <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic> coinage was
based on the shekel, a heritage from Canaanite ancestors.
However, the claim is that the half shekel used in Hashmanaoim times was
produced in Tyre under the supervision of the nonJews. The design minted
onto the coins was distinctly nonJewish. The weight was whatever was
standard in the Hellenized world and was not something decided by Chazal

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Dear Ovedim,

In a well known song, Mordechai Ben David Ish Werdiger recounts how Rabbi
Yishmael Ben Elisha offered ketoret in the Holy of Holies, thus strongly
implying RYBE was a kohen gadol. Oops, I forgot to mention, but keen
observers will know that this is not Midrash Mordechai, but a Gemara in the
first chapter of Berakhot.

Anyway, in Gittin 58a, the Gemara tells the story of how Rabbi Yehoshuah
Ben Chananya redeemed from captivity a young lad who would later become
Rabbi Yishmael Ben Elisha.

Does the latter story place RYBE after the Churban? If so, how do we square
that with the earlier story?

I see three possibilities and solicit you, dear Ovedim, for evidence
supporting one or another solution.

A) RYBE lived and worked before the Churban (if so, when was he kohen
gadol? Does he figure in any external lists?), and had been captured
decades before the Churban. (Ancillary question, when did Rabbi Yehoshuah
Ben Chananya live?).

B) Jewish Action Magazine once featured an article arguing that the Beit
haMikdash, though very heavily damaged, still stood for another few
decades, until Hadrian had it fully destroyed. During those decades, the
sacrificial service continued. If so, perhaps RYBE lived through the
Churban as a young lad, and later became kohen gadol in the half destroyed
Temple. Assuming RYBE doesn't show up in any pre Churban lists of high
priests, this would be a sensible explanation. It would also answer of of
the difficulties with the account of the ten martyrs in the piyut Arzei
haLevanon (difficulties not present in other accounts of the same story,
mind you).

C) Trei RSBE havei. Needs proof, obviously.
--
Yours sincerely,
Mit freundlichen Gr??en,

Arie Folger
blogging at http://www.rabbifolger.net/
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