Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 149

Wed, 25 Nov 2015

• 1. Re: Ahab (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Ahab (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Re: Ahab (Lisa Liel)
• 4. conversion monitoring (Joseph Kaplan)
• 5. Re: chumrah leading to a kulah (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: maaseh avot siman lebanim ()
• 7. maaseh avot siman lebanim (Joseph Kaplan)
• 8. Re: truth (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: maaseh avot siman lebanim ()
• 10. Re: maaseh avot siman lebanim (Saul Guberman)
• 11. Re: Ahab (Lisa Liel)
• 12. Re: Ahab (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: truth ()

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 08:03:14PM +0200, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
: Just because she was a wicked idolater doesn't mean she didn't
: convert before marrying Ahav...

RET mentioned Shelomo's wives. The Rambam, Hil' Issurei Bi'ah 13:14-16
discusses both them and Shimshon's. Levav David on 14,15,16 explains, see
<http://hebrewbooks.org/rambam.aspx?mfid=30393&;rid=4327>

Looking for more peirushim on the Rambam turned up this, which discusses
RET's original question <http://www.inn.co.il/Articles/Article.aspx/1375>,
with meqoros each way. Too involved to quickly summarize.

I wonder about the question, though. Did Chazal consider any of Malkhei
Yisrael legitimate even if their membership in Benei Yisrael were not
a question? After all, Yerav'am is from Efraim, not Yehudah, and even
the whole throne of the kingdom of Yisrael isn't all that legitimate.
Maybe Chazal never questioned their legitimacy for the throne due to
Izevel's lack of geirus (as the Radaq and Ralbag hold) because there
wasn't any either way.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A wise man is careful during the Purim banquet
mi...@aishdas.org        about things most people don't watch even on
http://www.aishdas.org   Yom Kippur.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 11/25/2015 6:35 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> Ahab's children were not Jewish since their mother Jezebel was not Jewish
> and hence certainly not fit to be kings    Nevertheless Tanach indicates
> they were wicked but not that they were illegitimate

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015, 20:03 Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net> wrote:
> Just because she was a wicked idolater doesn't mean she didn't convert
> before marrying Ahav...

Given Jezebel's history highly unlikely. Even with Solomon's wives
we have discussions.  Besides any conversion would be a farce.  What
bet din?

Lisa

On 11/25/2015 8:29 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
>
> Given jezebel history highly unlikely   even with Solomons wives we 
> have  discussions   besides any conversion would be a farce   what bet din
>

What's your basis for saying that?  You know nothing about Jezebel 
except stuff that happened 15 years or so after Ahab became king.  
Tanakh isn't a history book.  It contains history, but not complete 
history by any stretch of the imagination.  So when it comes to 
"Jezebel's history", that's mostly a closed book.


Lisa

"The story doesn't say, but I bet something came out during the discussion
not about the mother's shemiras Shabbos today, but her shemiras Shabbos the
weeks after the conversion. That she never accepted to join the people who
follow halakhah."

R' Micha raises an important factual question, the answer to which is critical in understanding what happened.  But if I were a betting man, I'd take the bet.
Joseph

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20151125/a9db37b2/attachment-0001.htm>

On 11/25/2015 10:07 AM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> In a recent tradition article article there is an example how a chumrah
> especially made as a reaction leads to a kulah
>
> In the prohibition R Louis Ginzberg issued a psak that one could use
> grape juice for kiddush. In reaction to this Conservative psak some O
> rabbi attacked R Ginzburg and paskened that grape juice was no different
> than orange juice and certainly not to be used for kiddush. As a result O
> Jews used wine for kiddush during the prohibition but drank grape juice
> without any hechsher.

If anyone did so, it was out of amhoratzus, not a result of this psak.


> Today (beginning with R Pesach Tzvi Frank) most poskim say that one can
> use grape juice for kiddush (some even say its preferable). Most important
> they all hold that grape juice is wine for the prohibition of stam yeinam

Everyone always held that it's subject to stam yeinam.  There has never
been a psak from anyone otherwise.



-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".

 
From: Toby  Katz at < t6...@aol.com>


R' Eli  Turkel wrote: 

We all  know the aggadah of the burial of Yaakov, the fight with Esav and
finally the  deaf Chushin the son of Dan kills Esav


explanation #1 - The sons of  Jacob didn't know how to handle the challenge
of Esav and argues with him but  Esav was more clever. Chushin who was deaf
understood the "real" Esav and  understood the resultant Chilul Hashem. So
he acts without considering the  reactions to his act to claim the rights of
the descendants of  Yaakov



explanation #2 - There was no need for the disagreement  between Esav and
the sons of Jacob to involve murder. It could have been  solved by friendly
negotiations by showing Jacob's legal right to Maarat  HaMachpela. Instead
there are "deaf" people who rush to action before all  peaceful ways are
followed. Rikvah who fought to prevent the fight between  Yaakov and Esav
now loses both of them the same day.



There is  no way to decide between these alternatives sometimes the
questions are  stronger than the answers-- 
Eli Turkel




>>>>>
 
There is a way to decide between these alternatives.  Look for earlier  
sources or commentators -- earlier than the 21st century.  We moderns can  
speculate but can't really make up our own meforshim based on nothing but our  
own intuition.  You need sources, precedents.
 
Your explanation #1 is close to the classic explanation. While  the sons of 
Yakov were arguing with Esav about who has the rights  to Me'aras 
Hamachpela, Chushim ran back to Egypt and fetched the original  shtar. (However I do 
not understand the last sentence of that paragraph --  you wrote, Chushim 
"acts without considering the reactions to his act to claim  the rights of the 
descendants of Yaakov."  I don't know if "he acts without  considering...." 
is an implied criticism of Chushim, and I don't understand "to  claim the 
rights of the descendants of Yaakov" at all.)
 
Your explanation #2 has a totally modern "shmeck."  I'd like to see  any 
Chumash commentator who says anything similar to that.
 
 

--Toby  Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


-------------------------------------------------------------------
 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20151125/3bf1c6f2/attachment-0001.htm>

"> explanation #2 - There was no need for the disagreement between Esav

> and the sons of Jacob to involve murder.



What murder?  Esav was holding up Yaacov's funeral.  He had no right to do
that, and Yaacov's family had no need to put up with it.  Esav of course
knew very well that he'd sold the plot, and was therefore in the wrong.  He
just supposed, correctly, that they would not have thought to bring the
contract with them."



I had no idea that holding up a funeral was a capital crime.

More importantly, though, I think that RET's comment that there is no way
to decide between the alternatives can be looked ta somewhat differently. 
I don't see this as alternatives in the sense that one explanation of the
story is correct and one not.  Rather, since we're speaking about a
aggadah,, not text, whose purpose is to teach lessons and not to tell us
what actually happened, the lesson the rabbis are teaching us with this
intentionally ambivalent story is that rash action may sometimes be
necessary and sometimes precipitous and it's difficult to know at the time
which is the case. People taking, or considering taking, such actions,
therefore, must always be cognizant of these two possibilities and thus
use, as best as they can, considered judgment.	Being men and not God, of
course, means we won't know which alternative applied to a particular case
until, in most cases, it's too late.
Joseph

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20151125/d1d3d3e7/attachment-0001.htm>

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 12:37:39AM -0500, via Avodah wrote:
: From: Zev Sero via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
:>> he doesn't know that Esav is  really evil [...] Rivka had always
:>> warned him about Esav "ki tzayid  befiv" but he never believed her.[--TK]

:> He did believe her, and he knew what Esav was really like. He warned
:> Esav not to bring him stolen meat or neveilah, and when Yaacov addressed
:> him politely he grew suspicious...

: He knew that his sons were different but he did not know that Esav was a 
: rasha and he certainly did not know that Esav had sold the bechora...

Just that he was a ganav, an okhel neveilos and a liar who spoke crassly?

Rashi (25:29) says that Avraham died 5 years early to spare him the
sight of Esav doing AZ. Is that consistent with saying Yitzchaq missed it?

I only want to point out the berakhos Yitzchaq gave out. When he
thought he was blessing Esav (27:27), Yitzchaq notes that his son
smells like the field which Hashem blessed, vayiten lekha haE-lokim..."
All gashmius. When he knew he was blessing Yaaqov (28:2), he invokes
Keil Shakkai, as in Avraham's berakhah and explicitly gives him Avraham's
berakhah and EY.

It would seem that Yitzchaq knew which was the better son. However, he
thought that Esav would grow to harness his physical gifts to support
his brother. Rivqa was told "ushenei le'umim meimei'ayikh yipareidu",
but apparently no one told Yitzchaq.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
mi...@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

 
From: Zev Sero via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

....The conclusion of the episode is  that Yaacov saw
Esav's blood on his feet, and laughed.   What more  is needed to show
that Chushim was right?

-- 
Zev  Sero                
z...@sero.name         




>>>>
 
I've never heard of this.  Where is it written?  Could you  fill in the 
rest of the story?  Yakov saw Esav's blood on whose feet --  Esav's feet or 
Yakov's feet?  Yakov saw?  Yakov laughed?  When --  after he had died?!  Or at 
some earlier point in time?  
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============



------------------------------------------------------------------- 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20151125/56adfc5f/attachment-0001.htm>

>
>
> From: Toby Katz at < t6...@aol.com>
>
>
> There is a way to decide between these alternatives.  Look for earlier
> sources or commentators -- earlier than the 21st century.  We moderns can
> speculate but can't really make up our own meforshim based on nothing but
> our own intuition.  You need sources, precedents.
>

I guess you don't read much of Rav Yoel Bin Nun & Rav Elchanan Samet.
Where does chidush come into play?  Is that not one of the main goals of
learning, that separate the talmud chacham from the rest?

Saul
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20151125/4bfa8871/attachment-0001.htm>

On 11/25/2015 10:16 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> I wonder about the question, though. Did Chazal consider any of Malkhei
> Yisrael legitimate even if their membership in Benei Yisrael were not
> a question? After all, Yerav'am is from Efraim, not Yehudah, and even
> the whole throne of the kingdom of Yisrael isn't all that legitimate.
> Maybe Chazal never questioned their legitimacy for the throne due to
> Izevel's lack of geirus (as the Radaq and Ralbag hold) because there
> wasn't any either way.

But who says kings can only come from shevet Yehudah?  Even the Rambam 
says that you can have kings from other shevatim.  It's just that 
they're subordinate to the king of Yehudah.  Essentially, for the entire 
duration of the northern kingdom, it was in rebellion.

Also, I think we're talking about two different kinds of legitimacy.  
Being Jewish, and being a legitimate king.

And Hashem sent nevi'im to anoint kings who weren't from Yehudah. Shaul, 
Yeravam, Yehu...  I have to figure that if He did that, it's okay.

Lisa

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 10:34:26PM +0200, Lisa Liel wrote:
: And Hashem sent nevi'im to anoint kings who weren't from Yehudah.
: Shaul, Yeravam, Yehu...  I have to figure that if He did that, it's
: okay.

Shaul aside, since he predates Yehudah getting the sheivet, so "lo yasur
sheivet miYhudah" wouldn't apply...

It could be that HQBH hates bloody fights over succession worse.

In any case, the Ralbag and Radaq say she wasn't Jewish. That piece I
pointed to had no direct quotes otherwise, but does list a number of
maamarei Chazal that would seem to say otherwise.

So, the possibility that Izevel was not Jewish has to be supportable,
even if you yourself do not find it convincing.

(Sidenote: I am getting a chuckle out of discussing whether a queen
a queen of Malkhus Yisrael was a baalas beris using an English word
whose etymology is more like "member of the people of the descendents
of Malkhus Yehudah" -- Jew.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The purely righteous do not complain about evil,
mi...@aishdas.org        but add justice, don't complain about heresy,
http://www.aishdas.org   but add faith, don't complain about ignorance,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but add wisdom.     - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar

From: Toby Katz <_t613k@aol.com_ (mailto:t6...@aol.com) >
 

In a message dated 11/25/2015, mi...@aishdas.org writes:

Rivqa  was told "ushenei le'umim meimei'ayikh yipareidu",
but apparently no one  told Yitzchaq.

 
 
 
>>>>
 
 
Yes, I already mentioned that.  In the list of things that Yitzchak  was in 
the dark about, I mentioned that Rivka never told him the prophecy about  
the twins she was carrying.  Yitchak was both literally and figuratively  
blind, certainly blind to the reality of who his son Esav really was.
 
Yes, Rashi says he told Esav to be sure and bring him hunted animals that  
were hefker, not stolen property, but Rashi also says that Esav fooled his  
father by asking him frummy questions about tithing salt and straw.   
Presumably he feared that Esav might not be clear about the halachos of what  
exactly constitutes stealing -- just as Lot's shepherds reasoned that they  
could graze their sheep wherever they wanted to, even on private property,  
because all of Eretz Yisrael had been promised to Avraham.
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


-------------------------------------------------------------------




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20151125/e0b9fd1b/attachment.htm>

------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)