Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 133

Wed, 14 Oct 2015

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 11:38:09 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Mitzvah Kiyumit


On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 07:37:48PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: I was asked to provide a list of (me-possible) mitzvaot which were
: considered kiyumit. Does anyone know of such a list?

I do not. SDo, I'll instead complicate the question. There are two kinds
of mitzvos for which the term might be uplied:

a- Mitzvos that are an obligatory precondition to or manner for doing
a reshus: shechitah (if you want to eat meat), tzitzis (if you want to
wear a four-cornered garment during the day), matzah on Pesach after the
first night (if you want to eat a baked good) or sukkah during most of
Sukkos, eruv chatzeiros, gittin...

To disambiguate, Rav Dovid Lishtitz called these mitzvos matirim.

b- A mitzvah asei that carries no bitul asei if you omit it. Tzedaqah
(in most cases), tefillin, some claim yishuv EY bizman hazeh, etc...

This is the more literal mitzvah qiyumis, but is far less common.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When faced with a decision ask yourself,
mi...@aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter



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Message: 2
From: Allan Engel
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 16:36:26 +0100
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Sefer Recommendation for Sukkot?


Maybe they don't  fit into a unified conceptual framework?

On 12 October 2015 at 03:39, Ken Bloom via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
wrote:
>
>  explains all of the various mitzvot and concepts of the holiday and how
> they fit into
> a unified conceptual framework.
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Message: 3
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:55:35 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Cancel Simchas Torah!


At 08:53 AM 10/12/2015, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
>On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 04:49:19AM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>: IMO ST has no place in EY.  The Torah in EY was originally read
>: according to a 3 or 3.5 year cycle...

>I thought it was a 3 yr cycle from Shavuos to the third Shavu'os after.

According to one of the seforim that I have in some places it was 3 
years and in others it was 3.5.  And,  not everyone read the same 
portion of the Torah on a given Shabbos!

IIRC there is no mention of Shavuous as the starting or ending point.

>The 3 yr cycle is one of the examples cited to show the EY origins of
>Ashkenaz, actually. So you could make a stronger argument that Ashkenazim
>have less reason to observe Simchas Torah than does EY's more mixed
>populace.

Cited by whom and where?  My understanding is that in Bavel they 
leined the entire Torah yearly as we do now and it EY it was the 3 or 
3.5 cycle.  It has nothing to do with Ashkenazim as far as I know.


[Email #2]

At 08:53 AM 10/12/2015, Ben Waxman wrote:
>I believe that you brought this issue up before.

Probably.  It is something that has bothered me for some time.

>Why stop with Simchat Torah? Why not claim that we should revert to
>minhag Eretz Yisrael from the 12th century across the board?

Indeed,  why wasn't this done in EY?  Why bring "Golus" practices to 
EY by not going back to the way things were done in EY originally?

YL



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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 12:43:37 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Cancel Simchas Torah!


On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 10:55:35AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: >The 3 yr cycle is one of the examples cited to show the EY origins of
: >Ashkenaz, actually. So you could make a stronger argument that Ashkenazim
: >have less reason to observe Simchas Torah than does EY's more mixed
: >populace.
: 
: Cited by whom and where?  My understanding is that in Bavel they 
: leined the entire Torah yearly as we do now and it EY it was the 3 or 
: 3.5 cycle.  It has nothing to do with Ashkenazim as far as I know.

Egypt too, according to R' Binyamin miTudela who visited in 1170.
And the Rambam mentions an alternate minhag of three years in Tehillah
13:1, also compiled between 1170 an 1180, when he was in Egypt. But he
considers the 1 yr minhag "haminhag hapashut" (as in nispasheit).

Once Ashkenaz started becoming a major community, most of them too read
in a 3 year cycle, as I described. And there was a qerovetz in Mussar
every Shabbbos that refered to the week's haftarah, which was also as per
the three year cycle. It suggests also what they were leining that week,
from which historians of halakhah surmized that Bereishis was on Shavuos.

Machzor Vitri (from before Rashi's passing, 1105 CE) mentions Simchas
Torah, Chasan Torah and Chasan Bereishis. So we're talking VERY early.

Prof Ta-Shma links the Ashkenazi 3 yr cycle to the EY origins of many
of Ashkenaz's pesaqim and minhagim. But it sounds from what you're
saying that the early Ashk version of the cycle was more rigid than
the original. I had simply not considered the possibility, and just
assumed they were identical.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of
mi...@aishdas.org        heights as long as he works his wings.
http://www.aishdas.org   But if he relaxes them for but one minute,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      he plummets downward.   - Rav Yisrael Salanter



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Message: 5
From: Ben Waxman
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 19:20:47 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Cancel Simchas Torah!


Because history and the halachic process / development of minhag didn't 
stop in the 12th century.

Ben

On 10/12/2015 5:00 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
>
> Indeed,  why wasn't this done in EY?  Why bring "Golus" practices to 
> EY by not going back to the way things were done in EY originally?




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Message: 6
From: saul newman
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 09:48:06 -0700
Subject:
[Avodah] naanuim style


http://thepartialview.blogspot.com/2015/09/video-rav-ch
aim-kanievsky-shaking-lulav.html

some i thought are makpid to hold all 4 minim together both hands at one
level  - a la the guy at the right end of the video.
RCK seems to hold here the etrog on a lower line than the other 3 , though
all four are in contact...
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Message: 7
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 14:13:58 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Cancel Simchas Torah!


At 12:43 PM 10/12/2015, Micha Berger wrote:
>Once Ashkenaz started becoming a major community, most of them too read
>in a 3 year cycle, as I described. And there was a qerovetz in Mussar
>every Shabbbos that refered to the week's haftarah, which was also as per
>the three year cycle. It suggests also what they were leining that week,
>from which historians of halakhah surmized that Bereishis was on Shavuos.

 From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

It is estimated that in the 11th century Ashkenazi Jews composed only 
three percent of the world's 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country>Jewish population,

Now as I understand it, the 3 year cycle had pretty much disappeared 
by this time.  The synagogue in Egypt that is reported in the 12th 
century to have leined based on the 3 year cycle was an 
exception.  Thus,  how can you assert that "Once Ashkenaz started 
becoming a major community, most of them too read n a 3 year 
cycle."  It seems that once Ashkenaz became a majority community,  no 
one was following the 3 year cycle.

Again,  the 3 year cycle was used in EY.


>Machzor Vitri (from before Rashi's passing, 1105 CE) mentions Simchas
>Torah, Chasan Torah and Chasan Bereishis. So we're talking VERY early.

See the marvelous sefer Toldos Chag Simchas Torah by A. Ya'ari for 
the history of the development of Simchas Torah.  R. Avraham Yari in 
his sefer Toldos Chag Simchas Torah comes to some interesting 
conclusions about when the Zohar was actually written.  His 
conclusions are based on when the name Simchas Torah was first used 
to designate the second day of Shemini Atzeres. See

http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/zohar_yaari.pdf

and, in particular, see what he writes on page 30.


>Prof Ta-Shma links the Ashkenazi 3 yr cycle to the EY origins of many
>of Ashkenaz's pesaqim and minhagim. But it sounds from what you're
>saying that the early Ashk version of the cycle was more rigid than
>the original. I had simply not considered the possibility, and just
>assumed they were identical.

I again I cannot understand this given that the 3 year cycle was 
abandoned before Ashkenaz became a dominate force in the Jewish nation.
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Message: 8
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 16:29:49 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Cancel Simchas Torah!


On 10/12/2015 10:55 AM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>> >Why stop with Simchat Torah? Why not claim that we should revert to
>> >minhag Eretz Yisrael from the 12th century across the board?

> Indeed,  why wasn't this done in EY?  Why bring "Golus" practices to
> EY by not going back to the way things were done in EY originally?

Why would Jews, arriving in a place where there was no established
kehillah, abandon their own minhagim and adopt those of Jews who once
lived there, *even if they knew* these minhagim (which they would have
had no reason to do)?   I asked you this before, and I know you read
the message, but you chose not to reply.   Do you think that when Jews
once more settled in Recife in the 19th or 20th century they should
have converted to S-P, just because the previous kehilla there had been
S-P?!

-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".



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Message: 9
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 04:17:31 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Alert - Esrog Disposal


[Forwarded from star-K.org.

I plucked this email out of the queue to take the effort to add this
prelude because I feel a need to warn the chevrah on a possible health
issue with the content of this post. Off topic, but might be importat.
Check the metzi'us of the safety of (i) eating esrog jelly. I was told
by a grower that given the value of the crop, the cost of a single bug
bite blackening the skin, import/export requirements, and the assumption
tht it won't be eaten, they use a LOT of insecticide. He discouraged me
from my annual practice of Coke-with-esrog on Simchas Torah a number of
years ago (non-shemittah). Google says he is not alone.

-micha]


October 12, 2015

Esrog Disposal

Esrogim exported from Eretz Yisroel for Succos 5776 (2015) have kedushas
sheviis (sanctity of fruit of the Shmittah year), and must be disposed of
in an appropriate manner. There are a couple of ways to accomplish this:

(i) An esrog may be used to make esrog jelly. The remnants of the esrog
should be discarded in the manner described below. The esrog jelly must
be eaten and not be wasted.

(ii) An esrog may be wrapped in plastic and left to rot, after which it
may be discarded. [If it is not wrapped in plastic, it will dry out and
will not rot. Furthermore, after rotting, the plastic serves the purpose
of covering the esrog, so that it will not come into direct contact with
the trash.]

If the esrog has not rotted by the first day of Shevat 5776 (January 11,
2016), there is an obligation of biur at that time. The esrog should
be placed in a public area in front of three Jewish male adults, and
the owner should announce that he is declaring the esrog to be hefker
(owner less). He (or any Jew) should then take the esrog and dispose
of it in the manner described above. It is preferable to send the esrog
back to Eretz Yisroel if it is known that biur will take place there.

See our other alerts or join our alerts mailing list here: 
<http://www.star-k.org/cons-new-alerts.htm>

(If the links do not open, please copy and paste into your browser.)




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Message: 10
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 17:39:30 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Simchas Torah is Really a Holiday for Bavel and not


I have posted a few pages from Avraham Yaari's book Toldos Chag 
Simchas Torah at http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/yaari_st_bavel.pdf

 From here I think it is clear that Simchas Torah is a Bavel 
holiday,  certainly in its origins.

YL




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Message: 11
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:18:57 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Simchas Torah is Really a Holiday for Bavel and


On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 05:39:30PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: I have posted a few pages from Avraham Yaari's book Toldos Chag
: Simchas Torah at
: http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/yaari_st_bavel.pdf

: From here I think it is clear that Simchas Torah is a Bavel holiday,
: certainly in its origins.

As is reading annually. So, any argument to reject ST would in favor
of triennial+ Torah reading.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless
mi...@aishdas.org        he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness.
http://www.aishdas.org   Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive
Fax: (270) 514-1507      a spirit of purity.      - Rav Yisrael Salanter



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Message: 12
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 12:54:36 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Simchas Torah is Really a Holiday for Bavel and


At 11:18 AM 10/14/2015, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 05:39:30PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
>: I have posted a few pages from Avraham Yaari's book Toldos Chag
>: Simchas Torah at
>: http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/yaari_st_bavel.pdf
>
>: From here I think it is clear that Simchas Torah is a Bavel holiday,
>: certainly in its origins.
>
>As is reading annually. So, any argument to reject ST would in favor
>of triennial+ Torah reading.

And indeed this has been my question all along.  Why did the Jews 
when they returned to EY adopt the "Golus" practice of reading the 
Torah yearly as was done in Bavel?  Why didn't they go back to the 
original practice of EY?

YL
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Message: 13
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:55:36 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Simchas Torah is Really a Holiday for Bavel and


On 10/14/2015 12:54 PM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>
> And indeed this has been my question all along. Why did the Jews when
> they returned to EY adopt the "Golus" practice of reading the Torah
> yearly as was done in Bavel? Why didn't they go back to the original
> practice of EY?

Asked and answered.  Why on earth should they have?  Should the Jews
who settled in Recife in the 20th century have become S-P, just because
the 17th-century kehillah there was?!   Of course not.  So how is this
any different?  Why should the Jews who resettled EY have adopted the
customs of the Jews who had previously lived there, *even if they
somehow knew what those were*?   You have seen this several times and
have not replied, but instead keep repeating your original question
which has no basis.


-- 
Zev Sero               All around myself I will wave the green willow
z...@sero.name          The myrtle and the palm and the citron for a week
                And if anyone should ask me the reason why I'm doing that
                I'll say "It's a Jewish thing; if you have a few minutes
                I'll explain it to you".



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Message: 14
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:06:50 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Simchas Torah is Really a Holiday for Bavel and


On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 12:54:36PM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: And indeed this has been my question all along.  Why did the Jews
: when they returned to EY adopt the "Golus" practice of reading the
: Torah yearly as was done in Bavel?  Why didn't they go back to the
: original practice of EY?

This is the line of reasoning of R' David Bar-Haim at Machon Shilo
<http://machonshilo.org>. He took it to the logical conclusion, and
reconstructed Nusach EY from the Cairo Geniza and hints in the Yerushalmi.
All contemporary nusachos, being derived from that of Rav Amram Gaon,
are deemed overly golah and inappropriate for EY.

If you advocate roling back centuries of practice WRT leining, why
not a millenium of nusach hetefilah? For that matter, in EY, why don't
they give priority to the pesaqim of the Yerushalmi and only use the
Bavli's pesaqim when the Y-mi has no clear masqanah?

You're asking why they didn't open a can of worms, in which the kelalei
pesaq would be vastly different than the actual norms (outside of
Machon Shilo).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
mi...@aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter



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Message: 15
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:16:46 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Milchemes Mitzvah vs Onshei Beis Din



Rav David Stav (chairman of Tzohar)
<http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4711092,00.html> recently
ruled that harming neurtalized terrorised would be a "moral
breakdown".

    People who are not involved in murderous activities and those who
    no longer pose a danger must not be harmed.

    The blood boils when you see Israeli Arabs, young and old, who have
    been making their livelihood from Jews, murdering children, soldiers,
    women and men indiscriminately, without any gratitude. ... It is
    precisely on these days that the strength and uniqueness of the
    Israeli society is put to the test.

    These days, when the boiling blood is mixed with civilian willingness
    and resourcefulness, it's important to maintain our moral superiority:
    To avoid harming a person who is uninvolved in murderous activity,
    and to avoid harming those who have already been neutralized and no
    longer pose a danger.
    ...
    It's not because they are immortal. They deserve to die, but that
    is not our way. Harming a terrorists who has been neutralized
    causes double damage: The collateral damage is when these images
    are distributed, and the main damage is harming our moral norms. We
    will not stoop down to our enemies' despicableness, and we will not
    contaminate ourselves with a moral breakdown.
    ...

There is a metzi'us question that is off topic for Avodah and not
likely to yeild productive discussion on Areivim: RDS sees the
resulting images in the media as increasing the threat to Jewish
life. I would have assumed that the overall effect would be to
reduce the number of Arabs willing to try copy-cat attacks.

I raise the topic of metzi'us not to launch that discussion, but to
note the whole calculus involved, that we have to raise this kind of
reasoning altogether. Is this kind of math what underlies the mitzvah
aspect of a milkhemes mitzvah? Is a defensive war, or a war to kill out
a harmful barbarian tribe of killers (Amaleiq) a mitzvah because it
means the fewest deaths overall? An obligation to chase the lesser evil?

RDS raises the issues that "the main damage is harming our moral norms",
and many understand the Beris Shalom that HQBH cuts with Pinechas to be
exactly that -- a guarantee against such damage. Certainly soldiers,
and to a lesser extent even mohalim and shochetim, face this issue
of being desensitized. And yet, in all those cases, it is outweighed.

As for the question in my subject line, to elaborate:

In war, the calculus of life is much different than in court. Including
having more allowance for collateral damage.

Does anyone discuss the line between treating an attacker as a criminal,
and thus subject to however beis din ought to be judging and punishing
benei Noach, and when the attacker is seen as part of a hostile force,
where aggression is more readliy legitimate?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's nice to be smart,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it's smarter to be nice.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - R' Lazer Brody
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 16
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:32:43 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Simchas Torah is Really a Holiday for Bavel and


At 05:06 PM 10/14/2015, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 12:54:36PM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>: And indeed this has been my question all along.  Why did the Jews
>: when they returned to EY adopt the "Golus" practice of reading the
>: Torah yearly as was done in Bavel?  Why didn't they go back to the
>: original practice of EY?
>
>This is the line of reasoning of R' David Bar-Haim at Machon Shilo
><http://machonshilo.org>. He took it to the logical conclusion, and
>reconstructed Nusach EY from the Cairo Geniza and hints in the Yerushalmi.
>All contemporary nusachos, being derived from that of Rav Amram Gaon,
>are deemed overly golah and inappropriate for EY.
>
>If you advocate roling back centuries of practice WRT leining, why
>not a millenium of nusach hetefilah? For that matter, in EY, why don't
>they give priority to the pesaqim of the Yerushalmi and only use the
>Bavli's pesaqim when the Y-mi has no clear masqanah?

There apparently was an established Nusach Ha Tefillah in EY as well 
as for other things.  It seems to me that this is what they should 
have gone back to and not further.


>You're asking why they didn't open a can of worms, in which the kelalei
>pesaq would be vastly different than the actual norms (outside of
>Machon Shilo).

I do not see this as opening a can of worms,  but rather  returning 
to the mesorah of EY.  I must admit that I do not understand what you 
mean by "the kelalei pesaq (pesak,  I presume.).

Why weren't they concerned about the mesorah of EY.  Is it possible 
that they did not know what it was?  It was certainly easier to 
transplant European Chassidic and GRA minhagim than to go back to 
what was done before the Jews left EY.

YL
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