Volume 33: Number 117
Fri, 28 Aug 2015
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Kaganoff
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 21:27:59 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Child Conversion
The assumption is that it is better to be a non-religious Jew (thereby
violating numerous halakhos) than a moral non-Jew.
(I am being over simplistic as being non-Jewish citizen in Israel is more
of a liability than elsewhere, so there may be a zechus to be a
non-religious ger katan.)
The irony as many have noted is that those who are most lenient about child
conversion tend to be those who are also lenient in accepting that one
could lead a perfectly good life as a non-Jew.
Those who think that it is better to be Jewish than non-Jewish by extension
should accept the conversion of a ger katan who will be raised by a
non-religious family.
The exception (and here I am venturing into Areivim territory) is Religious
Zionists who would argue for the superiority of the Jewish soul and also
for the need to allow ger katan conversions in non-religious families for
reasons of Nationalism.
Yonatan
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Message: 2
From: Kaganoff
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 21:50:52 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Mesorah (was Re: Mesora only through Rashi)
To parachute into an ongoing discussion, I have found that people use
Mesorah in four different ways:
1) Personal Mesorah from a Rebbe to a Talmid. What a scholar or layman
learns from his teacher.
2) Mesorah as the unbroken chain of Torah going back to Sinai. Rambam zt"l
has the most famous mesorah chart, though I like Micha Berger's. (Parallels
can be in Hadith transmission traditiona, Sufi traditions or the Catholic
Church's assumption of an unbroken chain back to Peter).
3) Communal norms and traditions. This is how the term is commonly used in
the Chareidi communities and also how it is being used in the ongoing
discussion. This is the idea that there are legitimate practices, norms,
values or halakhic understandings. For example different methodologies of
learning. Or, as my brothers-in-law say to me, well if that is the mesorah
of your community, then it is legitimate, even if they don't relate to this
practice. (Personally, I do not relate to such a usage. Either an approach
is valid/true or not valid/true.)
I discussed the last category in an essay that Gil was kind enough to post:
http://www.torahmusings.com/2011/07/two-types-of-orthodox-judaism/
There are probably other uses of the term *mesorah*, but I cannot think of
them at the moment.
Best wishes,
Yonatan
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Message: 3
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 10:43:29 +0300
Subject: [Avodah] smart lighting
can one use smart lighting on shabbat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_lighting
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 4
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 12:00:05 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] hakarat hatov
Is Hakarat Hatov actionable in beit din (e.g. would they force a party to
return a favor?) or is it a good midah but not exhibiting it is not
actionable? (and what about in the beit din shel maalah?)
How does this relate to kavod av/rav and shushbein cases?
KVCT
Joel Rich
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 13:37:32 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] hakarat hatov
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 12:00:05PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: Is Hakarat Hatov actionable in beit din (e.g. would they force a party
: to return a favor?) or is it a good midah but not exhibiting it is not
: actionable? (and what about in the beit din shel maalah?)
My own lexicon:
hakaras hatov: realizing that a good thing came into your life
hoda'ah: acknowledging the one who / One Who provided that good
Say Avi gives Berakhah a ball.
Berakhah's hakaras hatov has an primary object, which is the ball --
the tov she received from Avi. Not taking life's gifts for granted.
But her hoda'ah has a primary object -- which is Avi, and a secondary
object, the ball. As in the grammar of "Modim anachnu Lakh al...";
the prespositional phrase giving you the secondary object is a list
of all the things Hashem does for us.
I do not even know of a term for requiring repaying a favor. Although
there is meishiv ra'ah tachas tovah (Mishlei 17:13, c.f. Bereishis 44:4,
Shemuel I 25:21, Yirmiyahu 18:20, Tehillim 35:12, 38:21, 109:5). Not an
obligation to repay as much as an issur against doing them wrong.
Which, if you think about it, is what Chazal say about the early makos
and how Moshe would not be the one to launch a makah that afflicts the
water that saved him as a baby or the sand that hid the body.
I'm not thrilled with the whole idea of exchanging favors, creating a
market. It turns everything back on self-service -- every positive
act is tainted by expectation of being repaid.
: How does this relate to kavod av/rav and shushbein cases?
Perhaps kibud av va'eim and kavod harav are their own concepts for a
reason. And that hakaras hatov might explain the issur against hurting
or cursing one's parents, but not kavod and yir'ah.
I must confess I don't know what you mean by "shushbein cases".
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger When a king dies, his power ends,
mi...@aishdas.org but when a prophet dies, his influence is just
http://www.aishdas.org beginning.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Soren Kierkegaard
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Message: 6
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 17:55:37 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] hakarat hatov
I must confess I don't know what you mean by "shushbein cases".
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
Zechiyah uMattanah - Chapter Seven
Translated by Eliyahu Touger
Halacha 1
It is a universally accepted custom in most countries that when a man
marries, his friends and acquaintances send him money to support the
expenses he must undertake on behalf of his wife. Then the friends and
acquaintances who sent him this money come and eat and drink with the groom
during all - or part - of the seven days of wedding celebration; everything
should be done according to the accepted local custom.
The money that he is sent is called shushvinut, and the people who send the money and then come and eat and drink with the groom are called shushvinin.
Halacha 2
Shushvinut is not an outright gift. For it is plainly obvious that a person
did not send a colleague 10 dinarim with the intent that he eat and drink a
zuz's worth. He sent him the money solely because his intent was that when
he would marry, he would send him money as he has sent him.
Therefore, if the sender marries a woman, and the recipient does not return
the shushvinut, the sender may lodge a legal claim against the recipient
and expropriate the money from him.
KVCT
Joel Rich
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Message: 7
From: Zev Sero
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 15:01:38 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] hakarat hatov
On 08/27/2015 01:37 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> I must confess I don't know what you mean by "shushbein cases".
I believe the reference is to the law of shushvinin. But that is not
a matter of hakaras hatov; it's an explicit quid pro quo arrangement.
If you don't pay it back when it falls due, you're cheating the person
of a quantifiable amount of money that you explicitly owe him, so he
can sue you for it.
--
Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
I have a right to kill him without asking questions
-- John Adams
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Message: 8
From: Zev Sero
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 15:28:42 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] hakarat hatov
On 08/27/2015 01:55 PM, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> money to support the expenses he must undertake on behalf of his wife.
Mistranslation: This should be "...the expenses of the feast."
--
Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
I have a right to kill him without asking questions
-- John Adams
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