Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 52

Tue, 31 Mar 2015

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 10:01:08 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Spouses with Conflicting Customs


On 03/30/2015 10:12 PM, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
>> . When a woman marries, it is as if she is moving
>> >permanently into her husband?s house, and she must therefore adopt
>> >his customs.

> I once heard an interesting argument against Rav Moshe's logic on this
> point. He is viewing the wife as the one who is moving to a new
> location, but we have an explicit pasuk that takes the opposite view:
> Bereshis 2:24 - "Therefore, a man will desert his father and his
> mother, and stick to his wife." (The woman may of may not leave her
> parents, but the man explicitly does.)

A man's abandonment of his parents when he marries is of *them*, not of
their *place*.   Although in our great-grandparents' Eastern Europe it was
often the custom that a young couple would live with the bride's parents,
this was clearly not the model contemplated either by the Tanach or Chazal.
The Torah speaks of a man marrying a woman and taking her into his house,
and divorcing her by sending her away from his house.   Even the term
"kicha" as in "ki yikach ish isha" implies this.  Chazal speak of "bo`el
arusaso beveis chomiv", which implies that after marriage they will not be
living there.  And "chupah" consists of the bride moving into the groom's
house, which is why the groom should make sure to pay rent specifically
for the yichud room.


-- 
Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
z...@sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
                        the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
                        I have a right to kill him without asking questions
                                               -- John Adams



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Message: 2
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 10:02:27 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum


On 03/31/2015 07:07 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 07:52:05PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> : >Yes, but this seems to be his own chiddush; every earlier authority
> : >I've seen assumes the opposite. And his main proof is from mustard,
> : >which actually seems to be the strongest proof against him, once one
> : >sees the Taz; since he doesn't even mention this, let alone offer any
> : >explanation for why it doesn't refute his position...

> RET replied:
> :> I protest strongly against the assumption that RMF forgot a Taz that
> :> Zev knows.

> And in our post, RZS replied in turn:
> : So propose another explanation.  Try to reconcile the teshuva with the Taz.
> ...

> Why does Rav Moshe have to reconcile with the Taz?

Because his *entire point* is refuted by this Taz.  If you think it's
possible for RMF to have written what he did while aware of this Taz,
I invite you to explain how.


On 03/30/2015 10:26 PM, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
> The main part of the teshuva is that when Yom Tov is Motzaei Shabbos
> (as will be in chu"l in a few days), everyone puts two candles
> together for Yaknehaz, and no one worries about the dripping wax.

And yet "everyone" doesn't do this. For instance I have never seen it
or evenheard of it until now.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name



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Message: 3
From: via Avodah
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 13:57:57 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum



 
[1] From: Micha Berger via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

>> Actually, RMF's main proof is  from peanuts. He permits primarily because
"everyone" ate peanuts back in his  part of the Old Country. Mimeticism.<<

[2] From: Zev Sero via  Avodah _avodah@lists.aishdas.org_ 
(mailto:avo...@lists.aishdas.org) 


>>The  teshuvah is *about* peanuts, so how could he use them as
a proof?    ....  It must therefore be that there
was a specific list of species  that happened to include mustard, but could
not have included peanuts because  they were unknown.<<   
--


[3] > I also refer  to the Yavetz (Shelat Yavetz 2-147) who protests against
> those who wish  to include potatos as kitniyot on the ground that we
> don't add to the  gezera of kitniyot beyond what was originally 
included,[--RET]

[4]  >> No, he doesn't.   Quite to the contrary, he acknowledges that  many 
things
are added as time goes on.   The only objection he  raised to the suggestion
to ban potatoes was that it's an impossible burden  on the public.<< 
[--RZS]   




>>>>>
 
 
 
Peanuts, like potatoes and corn, are a New World crop that was unknown in  
Europe before the 16th century.  
 
http://www.boiled-peanut-world.com/peanut-plant.html
 
Nowadays they make flour out of all kinds of things -- walnut flour,  
almond flour -- I wonder when they stopped adding new things to the  "forbidden 
kitniyos" list and just accepted that housewives WERE going to use  /some 
kind/ of flour on Pesach, one way or another?
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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Message: 4
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 21:16:14 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum


<<So propose another explanation.  Try to reconcile the teshuva with the
Taz.
If you can't then you must accept that the most likely explanation is that
RMF simply forgot it.


> Among other things the OU relies on this teshuva. I assume that means
> that their poskim also don't know about this Taz.

I am not responsible for what the OU poskim know or don't know, or what they
care about or don't. >>

A little humility might help. RMF finished Shas well over 100 times and SA
probably more than that.
He told Rabbi Riskin that until the age of 60 he never forgot anything.
So the likelihood that he forgot a Taz he is about zero.
He either explained the Taz differently or else simply disagreed with the
Taz.

The poskim of the OU and other kashrut agencies are greater poskim that
almost anyone on this list.
Obviously they weren't bothered by this question.
You might not care what the major poskim of our generation say but many
others do accept
RMF and the major kashrut agencies of the US.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Message: 5
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 12:15:54 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Of Gebrokts and Kitniyos


At 11:25 AM 3/31/2015, R. Yisrael Herczeg wrote:

> >The Sefer Ashrei Haish quotes  Rav Elyashuv zt"l who says that one
> >who has the Minhag of not eating Gebrokts may change his Minhag to
> >eating Gebrokts.
>
> >It is preferable to make Hatoros Nedarim but not necessary. One may
> >rely on the Hataras Nedarim made on Erev Rosh Hashana.
>
>I asked Rav Elyashiv z"l if I could be matir neder on gebrokts and he told
>me I could not.

(I do not see R. Yisrael Herczeg email address in this post,  so I 
cannot copy him on this reply.)

A friend of mine who did not eat gebrokts and who was a close talmud 
of Rav Tuvia Goldstein , Z"L,  a well-know halachic expert here in 
the US,   asked Reb Tuvia about changing this and eating 
gebrokts.  Reb Tuvia replied,  "Mutar Loch,  Mutar Loch,  Mutar 
Loch."  and that was it!

YL


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Message: 6
From: Eli Turkel
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 21:08:31 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] gebrochs and kitniyot


<<I asked Rav Elyashiv z"l if I could be matir neder on gebrokts and he told
me I could not.>>

A friend of mine was a neighbor of RMF. EMF invited him several times to
seder and he refused.
After several years RMF asked why he always refused. He replied because he
didnt eat gebrochs and knew that RMF had gebrochs. RMF got angry and
immediately called over 3 boys and insisted that my friend be matir neder
and then come to his seder !

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Message: 7
From: Sholom Simon
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 12:16:01 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Spouses with Conflicting Customs



>I once heard an interesting argument against Rav Moshe's logic on 
>this point. He is viewing the wife as the one who is moving to a new 
>location, but we have an explicit pasuk that takes the opposite 
>view: Bereshis 2:24 - "Therefore, a man will desert his father and 
>his mother, and stick to his wife." (The woman may of may not leave 
>her parents, but the man explicitly does.)
>
>Granted that there are other arguments for the wife taking the 
>husband's minhagim - terumah is the first that comes to my mind. But 
>if Rav Moshe's main argument is Minhag Hamakom, I wonder how he 
>would have defended it against this pasuk.

I know of just such a case.  A youngAshkenazi, who is learning 
(perhaps in kollel -- mostly Sefardi rebbe's) and davens there 
(Safardi) -- this is in Har Nof , btw -- married a Sefardi woman, and 
asked a shayla if he could "switch" to Sefardi, since everything that 
surrounds him in life is Sefardi.  The answer he got was yes.  (I 
have no idea if the asked a Sefardi or Ashkenaz posek -- although, 
given the circumstances, it sure seems like he must have asked a 
Sefardi posek).

FWIW,

-- Sholom 




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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 15:34:52 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Of Gebrokts and Kitniyos


But let's not get buried under the reports of RMF and R' Tuvia Goldstein,
and forget that we have conflict in reports about whether RSZA would
allow someone to start eating gebrochts after hataras nedarim.

So, while rumor might say he did, we have a first-hand report from R
Yisrael Herczeg that tells us to ignore the grapevine.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha



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Message: 9
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 10:02:27 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum


On 03/31/2015 07:07 AM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 07:52:05PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
>: >Yes, but this seems to be his own chiddush; every earlier authority
>: >I've seen assumes the opposite. And his main proof is from mustard,
>: >which actually seems to be the strongest proof against him, once one
>: >sees the Taz; since he doesn't even mention this, let alone offer any
>: >explanation for why it doesn't refute his position...

> RET replied:
>:> I protest strongly against the assumption that RMF forgot a Taz that
>:> Zev knows.

> And in our post, RZS replied in turn:
>: So propose another explanation.  Try to reconcile the teshuva with the Taz.
> ...

> Why does Rav Moshe have to reconcile with the Taz?

Because his *entire point* is refuted by this Taz.  If you think it's
possible for RMF to have written what he did while aware of this Taz,
I invite you to explain how.


On 03/30/2015 10:26 PM, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
> The main part of the teshuva is that when Yom Tov is Motzaei Shabbos
> (as will be in chu"l in a few days), everyone puts two candles
> together for Yaknehaz, and no one worries about the dripping wax.

And yet "everyone" doesn't do this. For instance I have never seen it
or evenheard of it until now.


On 03/31/2015 03:16 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> A little humility might help. RMF finished Shas well over 100 times
> and SA probably more than that.
> He told Rabbi Riskin that until the age of 60 he never forgot anything.
> So the likelihood that he forgot a Taz he is about zero.
> He either explained the Taz differently or else simply disagreed with the Taz.

The Taz is explicit, and it doesn't matter whether he agreed with it; the
existence of this Taz destroys his entire point.   If you think it doesn't
please explain how.  If you can't, then you have to accept that he must have
forgotten it.   Going on about his gadlus won't change that.

I am not responsible at all for what the OU poskim base their decisions on.
Who told you they rely on this teshuvah in the first place?


On 03/31/2015 01:57 PM, [RnTK] via Avodah wrote:
> Nowadays they make flour out of all kinds of things -- walnut flour,
> almond flour -- I wonder when they stopped adding new things to the
> "forbidden kitniyos" list and just accepted that housewives WERE
> going to use /some kind/ of flour on Pesach, one way or another?

This question only makes sense if you accept RMF's chiddush that they
only banned specific species. Pretty much every earlier posek who
discusses the topic takes for granted that they banned broad categories,
and any species that fits in them is kitniyos.

That flour is made of something is only one of the reasons given for
kitniyos, and not the main reason.

But the example of mustard shows that it did apply to all species that
growin pods.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name



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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 17:37:01 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum


On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 10:02:27AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
:> A little humility might help. RMF finished Shas well over 100 times
:> and SA probably more than that.
:> He told Rabbi Riskin that until the age of 60 he never forgot anything.
:> So the likelihood that he forgot a Taz he is about zero.
:> He either explained the Taz differently or else simply disagreed with
:> the Taz.

: The Taz is explicit, and it doesn't matter whether he agreed with it; the
: existence of this Taz destroys his entire point...

No, because RMF isn't chayav to follow the Taz. Nor is he chayav nor
consistently address acharonim who disagree with his conclusion. This
has been said to you thrice before this post. Which makes your downright
chutzpah by considering yourself competent to find RMF's reasoning
lacking all the more out-of-place.

It's not like you even phrased your inability to comprehend the teshuvah
in light of the Taz as a question...

BTW, the Taz himself is giving a nir'eh hata'am for why mustard is
different than the Rama's permitting anise or coriander. So, it's not
like he's providing a pesaq, but explaining existing common practice
that appears to contradict pesaq. In short, the Taz is doing WRT the
inclusion of mustard pretty much what RMF was doing to canonize the
existing exclusions of peanuts!

We can also discuss whether the word "sharvit" requires the pod being
at the end of a stalk.

But I put both of these behing a "BTW" because when there are grevious
disagreements about the whole procedure, arguing about specific details
seems like a side-issue.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Take time,
mi...@aishdas.org        be exact,
http://www.aishdas.org   unclutter the mind.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm



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Message: 11
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 22:09:02 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] Philosophy and practice of shmita


What is the earliest source that ties shmita to the farmers using the time
to learn Torah? Are there any academic works which look at actual early
shmita observance practices?
KT
Joel Rich

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Message: 12
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 22:31:02 GMT
Subject:
[Avodah] Yaknehaz - who uses an avukah?


In the thread "The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum", I referred to the view of Rav Moshe Feinstein:

> ... when Yom Tov is Motzaei Shabbos (as will be in chu"l in a few
> days), everyone puts two candles together for Yaknehaz, and no one
> worries about the dripping wax.

And R' Zev Sero responded:

> And yet "everyone" doesn't do this.  For instance I have never
> seen it or even heard of it until now.

It is mentioned in Shmiras Shabbos K'hilchasa vol 2, 62:18.

I'm just curious if and how RZS - and the rest of the chevra - has an avuka
for Yaknehaz. I have heard of those who simply forego it on this occasion,
and use the light of the Neros Yom Tov. (This too is mentioned in SSK
there.)

For quite a while, my own practice has been: A few days before yom tov, I
take a regular braided havdala candle, and cut off about an inch or two. I
wrap the bottom of it *loosely* in crunched up piece of aluminum foil, and
place it securely in an empty yahrzeit glass. Just before kiddush, I light
it from the ner yom tov (or from another candle) and we have a beautiful
avuka for havdala. Plenty of light for everyone, and the adults can pass it
around if desired. I do not put the fire out, of course, and the loose foil
catches all the melting wax, and it goes out by itself in a while. We davka
leave it on or near the table, to minimize the fire hazard of an unattended
candle.

Footnote 31 of the above-cited SSK says that Rav SZ Auerbach said "tzorech
iyun" on whether the avuka is a sufficient tzorech to justify meleches
mav'ir on yom tov. But in the thin "Tikunim Umiluim" edition of the SSK,
RSZA revised his view to "mistaber mutar". My curiosity about RMF's view is
what led me to the teshuva that I quoted yesterday, which made it clear
that he's not worried about it.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
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Message: 13
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 01:26:07 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Spouses with Conflicting Customs


I quoted the pasuk:

> Bereshis 2:24 - "Therefore, a man will desert his father and his
> mother, and stick to his wife." (The woman may of may not leave
> her parents, but the man explicitly does.)

R' Zev Sero responded:

> Although in our great-grandparents' Eastern Europe it was often
> the custom that a young couple would live with the bride's
> parents, this was clearly not the model contemplated either by
> the Tanach or Chazal.

I totally agree. The new couple has a home of their own, and it has no relationship to *either* pair of parents.

> The Torah speaks of a man marrying a woman and taking her into his
> house, and divorcing her by sending her away from his house. ...
> And "chupah" consists of the bride moving into the groom's house, ...

I do concede that this home that they are building is referred to as "his"
home in those contexts, but there are other contexts which speak of "her"
home or "their" home. But I don't see any of that as relevant here.

The relevant factor is: Are they more connected to *his* parents, or to
*her* parents (or to both or to neither)? And it seems to me that Bereishis
is very clearly showing that marriage severs the bond between the husband
and his parents. I have no idea to what *degree* this bond is severed, nor
do I know in what *ways* the bond is severed. The one and only point that
I'm trying to make is that I do not see any comparable break between the
*wife* and her parents.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Want to place your ad here?
Advertise on United Online
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/551b496c375ff496c4f33st04vuc



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Message: 14
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 18:15:34 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Of Gebrokts and Kitniyos


At 03:34 PM 3/31/2015, Micha Berger wrote:
>But let's not get buried under the reports of RMF and R' Tuvia Goldstein,
>and forget that we have conflict in reports about whether RSZA would
>allow someone to start eating gebrochts after hataras nedarim.
>
>So, while rumor might say he did, we have a first-hand report from R
>Yisrael Herczeg that tells us to ignore the grapevine.

Perhaps he changed his mind!  It has happened before.



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Message: 15
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 23:45:08 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Quinoa - Kitniyos Conundrum


On 2015-03-31 10:02 am, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:

> But the example of mustard shows that it did apply to all species 
> that
> grow in pods.

The fact that mustard is grain-shaped is also relevant. Rice doesn't 
grow
in pods. And for that matter, the whole point of the Taz is to contrast
mustard with the grain-shaped spices the Rama ad loc is permitting. (As
I noted already, the Rama doesn't put mustard in this conversation, the
Taz does.) Peanuts, while technically legumes, may not be relevant to
which grain-like foods are included.

Or, the Taz may have indeed have meant his statement in general, since
the criterion I just posited would be implied. And that he is saying
that growing in a sharvit is sufficient to be included as qitniyos.

And then, the Taz's criterion of sharvit might not even apply to peanut
shells. If field kimmel is a problem (his previous statement in that 
s"q)
because it looks more like dagan, then who says all legume pods are the
same even when they are shell-like and grow underground? Doesn't pass a
"tzrurah" test.

So first of all, I wouldn't assume the Taz's position compels us to 
consider
peanuts qitniyos.

But second, as repeatedly stated: RMF doesn't have to hold like the 
Taz. He may
well have a different criterion for distinguishing mustard from anise 
that
wouldn't imply peanuts are on the qitniyos side of the line. Even had I
agreed this is the necessary conclusion from the Taz.

The existence of the Taz's shitah where the chaqira lies doesn't bind 
RMF or
constrain his choices in any way. He simply has to draw a different 
line
between mustard and (eg) anise that would explain the mimetics of his 
part
of Lithuania that peanuts weren't included.

BTW, in our lifetimes, peanut oil was the normal KLP product used in O 
homes
from YI to Agudah. (I didn't know what chassidim did back then.) 
Available
under the OU in the US then, and in South Africa, KLP peanut oil and 
peanut
butter are still available under the Cape Town Beth Din. (Note to 
Americans:
Chicago's cRc and R' Eidlitz both consider the CTBC reliable.)

To quote the CTBD's 2015 guide <>:
> Are peanuts considered Kitniyot?

> Halachic Authorities also differ on the matter of whether or not 
> peanuts
> should be considered Kitniyot. Peanuts were not known in Ashkenazic
> countries at the time when the prohibition was made, and as such were 
> not
> included in this prohibition according to a long-standing policy of 
> the
> Beth Din. See also Igrot Moshe 3:63 where Rabbi Moshe Feinstein too, 
> is
> lenient on this.

> Obviously peanut derivatives (e.g. peanut butter and peanut oil), 
> under
> Beth Din supervision with a Pesach Hechsher, are certainly permitted
> according to this policy. Once again, products containing such 
> ingredients
> are clearly labeled or mentioned in the guide in consideration for 
> those who
> prefer to follow stricter opinions.

It wasn't just the Belarus of RMF's day that never accepted a minhag to 
avoid
peanuts.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger Here is the test to find whether your mission
mi...@aishdas.org on Earth is finished:
http://www.aishdas.org if you're alive, it isn't.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - Richard Bach


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