Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 108

Wed, 16 Jul 2014

• 1. shabbat in Alaska (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: shabbat in Alaska (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Kaddish phrasing (D&E-H Bannett)
• 4. midianite survivors (saul newman)
• 5. Re: midianite survivors (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: shabbat in Alaska (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: The case for a flat earth (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 8. Re: The case for a flat earth (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: The case for a flat earth (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 10. Re: The case for a flat earth (Kenneth Miller)
• 11. Re: The case for a flat earth (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: midianite survivors (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: midianite survivors (Lisa Liel)
• 14. Re: midianite survivors (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: shabbat in Alaska (Eli Turkel)

<<The first answer is that there is no halachic basis for the line in the
ocean
that the nations have decided to call the International Dateline.  There are
many opinions about where the dateline is, and some put it *approximately*
where the nations have done at the moment, but *nobody* holds that it tracks
the nations' line exactly, and changes when they change it. >>

Indeed some hold that it is approximately near the international date line
which would give the same question.

from
http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-trav-dateline.htm

 *"Mid-Pacific Poskim"* - Several *Poskim*, including the *Bnai Tzion*, are
of the opinion that the *halachic* Dateline runs through the middle of the
Pacific Ocean and closely resembles the Civil Dateline.  According to these
opinions, Japan and New Zealand are on the western side of the Dateline
(similar to Asia), and residents of these locations observe *Shabbos* on
the local Saturday.  Hawaii is on the eastern side of the Dateline (similar
to America), and residents observe *Shabbos* on their local Saturday.

The exact location varies among the Mid-Pacific *Poskim*.  The *Bnai Tzion*'s
Dateline slants westward through the Bering Straits (between Alaska and
Siberia), touching the Siberian coast, through the Pacific Ocean at
approximately 177?E (west of Fiji), then turns east of New Zealand.  Other
Mid-Pacific *Poskim*, including Rabbi B. Rabinowitz Thumim, *Atzei Sodeh*
 and *Alai Yonah* are of the opinion that the line is at 169.7?W - from the
eastern tip of Siberia, directly southward through the Pacific Ocean, 10?
east of the Civil Dateline.

However the same question arises according to the other versions.
Perhaps the strangest shitah is that of the Brisker Rav. He holds that the
halachic dateline runs through China. Hence a single house could be on both
sides of the dateline and one would constantly wander between friday and
shabbat as one walks through the house.

CI solves this problem by moving the dateline to the coast. However the
same question arises if one would go for a swim in the ocean the day would
change. Upon returning to shore one would return to the original day.

In fact it is obvious that with any defincition of a dateline it is
possible to criss-cross it numerous times within a day
-- 
Eli Turkel
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On 16/07/2014 5:48 AM, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
>
> Indeed some hold that it is approximately near the international date
> line which would give the same question.

Not true.  The only ones who hold the line approximates the current IDL are
R Kasher, who says there is no line, and a ship crossing the ocean keeps its
own calendar until it docks, and the Bnai Tzion who says that the "line" is
a broad swath of "bein hashmashos", so this question doesn't arise, at least
not in the given form.


> Perhaps the strangest shitah is that of the Brisker Rav. He holds that
> the halachic dateline runs through China.

There's nothing strange about having a line that crosses land.  Anyone who
holds that there is a line almost *must* have it cross land *somewhere*, if
only in Antarctica.  The Bnai Tzion points out that the gemara refers to a
case where  one village found out when Yom Kippur was, and another village
within the techum didn't, so the idea that such things can happen wasn't
foreign to Chazal.  But since his dateline is not a line but a zone, like
the "no-man's-land" that used to divide Y'm, one can't literally jump from
Shabbos into Chol and back, like Homer Simpson jumping into and out of the
US embassy.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

Re: Comments on ending the response with almaya or adding 
yitbarakh:

In the teimani baladi and dardai nusachim  the kahal answers 
Amen after the chazan says yitbarakh This is back up for 
those who say it in the response.

The Sefaradi response does not end with almaya or with 
yitbarakh. Sefardim continue until the next Amen.


David

someone asked  me  this  question and needs a quick answer for his tora
study group.  if  all the midianites were wiped out in this week's parsha ,
how did they reappear in shoftim 6 ?
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On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 09:19:27AM -0700, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
: someone asked me this question and needs a quick answer for his tora
: study group. if all the midianites were wiped out in this week's parsha ,
: how did they reappear in shoftim 6 ?

I am not sure the entire Midianite ethnic group was wiped out, rather
thank this one community. Also, "kol" (as in Bamidbar 31:7 "vayahargu
kol zakhar") often means the vast majority, rather than all. But I'm
leaning more to my first answer. After all, Midian was a big enough
ethnic group to have lands named for them both in Transjordan (this
week's parashah) and in Africa (where Yisro was from). For that matter,
Midian was big enough for Yisro to be from the Keini tribe, or perhaps
founding namesake of the Keini people, within the Midianite People. There
could be -- and likely were -- enclaves in between."

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             People were created to be loved.
mi...@aishdas.org        Things were created to be used.
http://www.aishdas.org   The reason why the world is in chaos is that
Fax: (270) 514-1507      things are being loved, people are being used.

On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 04:21:25AM +0300, R Eli Turkel replied to RYGB:
:> I assume Rabbeinu Tam knew Tosafos Avodah Zarah 41a d"h K'Kadur, which
:> tells us the world is round.

: Many ancients believed the world was flat but circular and so interpreted
: the gemara.

This is not consensus among historians, regardless of what we might
think of what Jews in particular knew. The learned among Xians amongst
whom Rabbeinu Tam lived certainly did not think the world was flat.
Meanwhile the masses thought of the world as "round like a table", as
RET writes; as I mentioned earlier, these were the Dark Ages because the
church thought piety would come more readily to ignorant masses than to
informed people.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth#Early_Christian_Church
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth#Middle_Ages

If Rabbeinu Tam were to insist the world were a flat circle, it would
be for ideological reasons, not ignorance of the science.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Good decisions come from experience;
mi...@aishdas.org        Experience comes from bad decisions.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Djoha, from a Sepharadi fable
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 07/16/2014 03:06 AM, Eli Turkel wrote:
> Instead of the common give and take I will try and put together in one
> place the proofs for a flat earth with regard to Rabbenu Tam (RT).
> This is based on articles/books by Sternberg and Landa. After that I
> am retiring from this discussion.

See Gilyonei HaShas to Shabbos 75a d.h. Minayin Shemitzvah (at 
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22172&;pgnum=28) who deals 
with this issue and brings the evidence that it was known to Chazal and 
many Rishonim that the earth is spherical. As the counter-evidence in 
the works cited by RET is largely based on later, erroneous sources and 
contrived extrapolation, I don't feel I need to respond to them. 
V'ha'me'ayain yivchar.

KT,
YGB

On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 5:34 PM, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer <r...@aishdas.org>
wrote:
> See Gilyonei HaShas to Shabbos 75a d.h. Minayin Shemitzvah (at 
> http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22172&;st=&pgnum=28) who deals 
> with this issue and brings the evidence that it was known to Chazal and 
> many Rishonim that the earth is spherical. As the counter-evidence in 
> the works cited by RET is largely based on later, erroneous sources and 
> contrived extrapolation, I don't feel I need to respond to them. 

At the very least Shvut Yaakov understood the gemara to believe in a flat
earth against "modern science". This is in fact quoted in the Gilyonei
HaShas that RGB quoted.

In fact Gilyonei HaShas claims that the Gra also did not believe the
world was spherical (astounding in that time). The Gilyonei HaShas brings
the gemara in AZ that RGB quoted. Otherwise I did not see anyting beyond
what RGB has already brought. He does not seem to discuss the gemara in
Pesachim which IMHO is a much stronger proof than the gemara in Chagiga.

To be honest I did not look at the sources Gilyonei haShas quoted as I
am not familar with them and he gives no marei mekomot (sorry I am not
an expert in all of Zohar)

Again I dont understand how one can understand RT on shekia in terms of a
spherical earth. 72 minutes is not a flat number (based on what region?)
but varies according to latitude.

We agree to disagree. No point in discussing this further.

-- 
Eli Turkel

On 07/16/2014 10:59 AM, Eli Turkel wrote:
> Again I dont understand how one can understand RT on shekia in terms 
> of a spherical earth. 72 minutes is not a flat number (based on what 
> region?) but varies according to latitude.

In Prof. Leo (Yehuda) Levi's seminal /Jewish Chronomony/, reissued
(but currently unavailable) as /Halakhic Times for Home and Travel/
<http://books.google.com/books?id=z7fkAAAAMAAJ> (also, evidently, out of
print), he explains RT based on a round earth. The 72 minute number did
not originate with RT himself. Prof. Levi goes into detail on degrees
beneath the horizon, measure of darkness, etc. It gives me pause that
RSZA, who knew all we know and more, writes that in EY the minhag is to
be machmir like the Magen Avraham for zman kri'as shema...

KT,
YGB

R' Eli Turkel wrote:

> 72 minutes is not a flat number (based on what region?)
> but varies according to latitude.

You and I both know and understand that twilight varies with latitude, but
when did THEY know it? In other words: At what point in history did it
become common knowledge that twilight is faster near the equator and slower
far from the equator, and that this effect is distinct from how it changes
with the season?

Akiva Miller
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On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 06:09:46PM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: You and I both know and understand that twilight varies with latitude,
: but when did THEY know it? ...

Erostosthenes (d 195 BCE), Posidonius and Ptolmey did. E used the
difference between the solar solstice in Alexandria and Syeren (Aswan)
-- one if due north of the other, 925km apart.

Which means the Qalam and (more relevant) the Scholasts did.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             What we do for ourselves dies with us.
mi...@aishdas.org        What we do for others and the world,
http://www.aishdas.org   remains and is immortal.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Albert Pine

On 16/07/2014 1:05 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 09:19:27AM -0700, saul newman via Avodah wrote:
> : someone asked me this question and needs a quick answer for his tora
> : study group. if all the midianites were wiped out in this week's parsha ,
> : how did they reappear in shoftim 6 ?

> I am not sure the entire Midianite ethnic group was wiped out, rather
> thank this one community.

Yes, I think it's clear that there were more Midianite tribes than the
five who were involved in the Peor incident, and thus were our enemies.


> Midian was a big enough
> ethnic group to have lands named for them both in Transjordan (this
> week's parashah) and in Africa (where Yisro was from).

Where do you see that Yisro was from Africa?  On the contrary, it seems
that his home was not too far from Mt Sinai, since Moshe took his sheep
there.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On 7/16/2014 12:05 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> I am not sure the entire Midianite ethnic group was wiped out, rather
> thank this one community. Also, "kol" (as in Bamidbar 31:7 "vayahargu
> kol zakhar") often means the vast majority, rather than all. But I'm
> leaning more to my first answer. After all, Midian was a big enough
> ethnic group to have lands named for them both in Transjordan (this
> week's parashah) and in Africa (where Yisro was from).

I'm sorry... "Africa"?

Lisa

On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 03:01:25PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: Where do you see that Yisro was from Africa?  On the contrary, it seems
: that his home was not too far from Mt Sinai, since Moshe took his sheep
: there.

"Ki ishah kushis laqach". And in the Medrash, Moshe passes through Midyan
(and meets Tziporah) on his way from Kush to Mitzrayim. Thus leading me to
conclude there was an Eretz Midyan between Mitzrayim and Kush, where the
people tended to look Kushian. (Possibly the genes of Keturah, Midian's
mother, as expressed epogenetically because of location and climate.)

Chavaquq 3:7 lists the two countries together, which doesn't require they
be adjacent, but would explain it.

Mt Sinai may have met Moshe supernaturally. It would not be the only time
for the medrash to assert it went to meet somone.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value,
mi...@aishdas.org        but by rubbing one stone against another,
http://www.aishdas.org   sparks of fire emerge. 
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz

> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth#Early_Christian_Church
> and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth#Middle_Ages

> If Rabbeinu Tam were to insist the world were a flat circle, it would
> be for ideological reasons, not ignorance of the science.

Of course I have no way of knowing RT's motivations.
Prof. Sternberg assumes that in any case it was strictly a perush on
the gemara and never meant as halacha. Only centuries later was it taken
seriously as halacha.

Basically he has 2 proofs:
(1) We have no statement prior to RT that holds like this (as you point
out in fact it appears in Shitah Mekubezet)
RT was very insistent on keeping minhag and it is unlikely he would
change such a fundamental minhag as the time shabbat starts.

2) His student R Eliezer Mi-metz is that the other end of the spectrum
that Bein Hashmashot begings before sunset
and ends with sunset. It is unlikely that a talmid and rebbe would have
such extreme positions on such a basic halacha

-- 
Eli Turkel


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