Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 206

Fri, 20 Dec 2013

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:14:06 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Eating Out


This is some good stuff.

I asked once about shaking a lulav according to Minhag Ashkenaz in a 
Sefardi shul. It would seem that according to the following, the answer 
would be a resounding NO!

All division of custom in prayer and mitzvah activities, and 
contradictory rulings issued regarding communal matters performed in 
public in one synagogue, fall under the prohibition of "You shall not 
split yourselves."

On 12/12/2013 6:22 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> To cite R Mordechai Torczyner (CCed) for the second time in two days,
> here is the English subset of
> http://rechovot.blogspot.com/2013/12/frumming-out-fitt
> ing-in-source-sheet.html
>

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Message: 2
From: cantorwolb...@cox.net
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 18:17:46 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Quote


Z.S. wrote:
> This reminds me of the famous anonymous quote: One should be just as concerned what comes out of his mouth as for what goes in.
It's not at all anonymous.   Matthew 15:11, Mark 7:15.

This is a good example of the famous quote: ?A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.?

My anonymous quote is specifically:  ?One should be just as concerned with what comes out of his mouth as for what goes in.?
Since the New Testament (L?havdil) was given as the citation, I quote both sources:

Matthew 15:11  ?What goes into someone?s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them."
Mark 7:15         ?Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.?

If you analyze my original quote, there is no mention of ?defiling? which is the main thrust in the NT.
In my quote, the ?concern? is a key element and there is no mention of ?concern? in the NT.
So to take a half truth and use it as the source is at best, equivocal as well as inaccurate and misleading. 
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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 19:05:44 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Quote


On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 06:17:46PM -0500, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
: If you analyze my original quote, there is no mention of
: ?defiling? which is the main thrust in the NT.
: In my quote, the ?concern? is a key element and there is no mention
: of ?concern? in the NT.

But since being metamei yourself is a major cause for concern, you can
see how one drifted into the other.

The language of "defiling" is clearly a reference to the chumash's
phrasing of which species not to eat -- beheimos (and ofos, chayos,
etc...) temei'os.

Still, despite the source, it's true in Yahadus as well: Both kashrus
and shemiras halashon are required for true taharah. And therefore,
be concerned with both.

If anything, be MORE concerned with shemiras halashon. Aside from
malbim penei chaveiro being borderline avoid-or-die territory, it's
easier to do teshuvah for eating treif than for telling LH (or picking
up the feathers after bursting a pillow).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The trick is learning to be passionate in one's
mi...@aishdas.org        ideals, but compassionate to one's peers.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 4
From: David Riceman <drice...@optimum.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 21:08:45 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] reheating water on Shabbat


According to the opinion that ein bishul ahar bishul b'lah mid'orayysa, 
is one nonetheless hayyav hatas for reheating water on Shabbat?

On the one hand the Rambam (9:1) is quite clear that bishul applies to 
water.  On the other hand he says (9:3) that bishul doesn't apply to 
something which doesn't require cooking, or to something that had 
previously been cooked.  And certainly one can drink and wash in cold water.

Now Rabbi Babad in the Minhat Hinuch distinguishes between something 
which is changed by cooking, for which ein bishul ahar bishul, and 
something which is not changed by cooking, for which yesh bishul ahar 
bishul, and he (and Rabbi Danziger in Nishmas Adam) gives plausible 
evidence based on bishul matechet.

But there are very few examples in Hazal of something which is unchanged 
by cooking, and I know of no explicit examples in Hazal which discuss 
bishul ahar bishul in such a case.

And there's plausible evidence in other direction as well.  The gemara 
in Menahot 21a distinguishes between blood dried by fire, which is 
considered cooked because it cannot be reconstituted, and blood dried by 
the sun, which is not considered cooked because it can be 
reconstituted.  The Rogachover (in Rabbi Bar Shimon's edition of Tzafnas 
Paneah al HaRambam H. Shabbat its in chapter 9:2 pp. 198 ff.) cites 
several other examples like this and postulates that that explains why, 
in H. Shabbat, the sun can't be m'vashel (see Rabbi Feinstein's 
objections in IM OH 3:52 cited on p. 199).  But certainly cooked water 
can be reconstituted passively by cooling.

I'd like to see an attempt to harmonize all of these sources.  Does 
someone know of a lomdishe analysis of cooking water?

David Riceman



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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:35:14 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Eating Out


On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:22:18AM -0500, Micha Berger wrote:
: To cite R Mordechai Torczyner (CCed) for the second time in two days,
: here is the English subset of
: http://rechovot.blogspot.com/2013/12/frumming-out-fitting-in
: -source-sheet.html
: ...
: Act One: Swapping Minhagim (Customs)
:    1. Tur Choshen Mishpat 368, citing Rav Sherira Gaon (10^th century Babylon)
:    ...
:    As far as your local custom, that one who purchases from bandits and
:    thieves must return it to the owners and collect his expenditures from
:    them: If this is so, then all are obligated not to diverge from the
:    custom. As we say: "How do we know that custom is substantive?
:    Deuteronomy 9:14 states, 'Do not trespass the boundary of another, set
:    by early generations.'" This is certainly true for a practice which
:    inolves great improvement and elimination of strife. Therefore, do
:    according to your custom, do not diverge, and be at peace.
: ...
:    8. Rabbi Isaac ben Sheshet Perfet (Rivash) (14^th century Spain),
:       Responsum 105
:    ...
:    [This source deals with protocols for contracts, established by local
:    custom.] There may be cases in which a generic custom will not override
:    law, unless that law is uncertain. Clear law cannot be overridden by
:    generic custom, but only by custom stipulated by communal agreement.

I would not group CM examples with minhag in general.

Too much of CM is dependent on expectation: teqias kaf, qinyan odita,
the CM usage of dina demalkhusa (as opposed to the issur by the same
idiom of violating a generally enforced civil law), etc...

Minhag sets expectation, so it could crate qinyanim similar to odita.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
mi...@aishdas.org        "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org   my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch



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Message: 6
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 07:12:16 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] some piskei halacha given erev shabbat


 From Rav Fuerstein

1) Anyone who does not live close to shul should not risk the fall 
walking to shul.
2) If there you aren't sure that there will be minyan, don't take the 
chance in walking.
3) Shul should cancel any scheduled shiyur.
4) Don't depend on your electric platta, use gas - and remind yourselves 
of the relevant halachot such as covering knobs!
5) Anyone who sees broken, downed electric lines must call the electric 
company even on Shabbat!
6) If there is a doubt (about health? not sure), if your circuit 
breakers go down, get a non-Jew to restart your electricity or do it 
with a shinui (his words: yesh l'hachmir and do this!)

Ben



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Message: 7
From: saul newman <newman...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 10:04:31 -0800
Subject:
[Avodah] kotel shul status


http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com/2013/12/interesting-psak-dav
ening-in-azarat.html

apparently , designating any area along the  kotel perimeter as
 egalitarian prayer area thereby assurs it  24-7 for  O  prayer .....
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Message: 8
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 13:26:11 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Yotzer HaMe'oros


 From today's Hakhel Email Bulletin.


QUESTION: Does one answer Amen if he hears 
someone, at the beginning of Birkos Kriyas Shema 
in the morning, recite the words ?Baruch Atta 
Hashem?Oseh Shalom U'Vorei Es HaKol?--is this not 
the end of the first part of the bracha (as it is 
typically set off by itself in large letters in 
siddurim)--or don?t we say that after all it is 
just one long bracha that ends at Yotzer HaMe'oros?


ANSWER FROM A POSEK: The bracha certainly ends 
after Yotzer HaMe'oros, and therefore one should 
not answer amen after ?Oseh Shalom U'Vorei Es 
HaKol?. I wish to comment on a common 
misunderstanding about the brachos before and 
after Kriyas Shema. Women and girls who do not 
have enough time to say Birkos Kriyas Shema often 
say Shema and then Shemone Esrei. Before starting 
Shemone Esrei, they stand up at Tehillos Le'Keil 
Elyon (as it states in the siddur) and recite 
their tefillah from that point until Go'al 
Yisrael, and then begin Shemone Esrei. This is a 
b'racha levatala. A woman who wishes to say the 
words of Go'al Yisrael before Shemone Esrei, may 
only do so if she says the entire bracha after 
Shema that begins with the word  Emes V?Yatziv. 
This is an extremely common misconception and 
would be a huge mitzvah and zikui harabbim to spread the word!

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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 13:48:54 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] It won't all be perfect?


Today's Y-mi, Makkos 7b, appears to side with Shemuel (ein bein olam
hazeh liymod hamoshiach ela shib'ud malkhios bilvad) or somehow else
describe a less than perfect existence in the messianic era.

The genara repeats a machloqes from the last Tosefta in Makos pereq 2.
The tana qama says that le'asid lavo there will be another 3 arei miqlat
for a total of 9, which is why the parashah says "shalosh" thrice. Aba
Shaul says there will be 12 areia miqlat, darshening the extra three from
the word "od". R' Nehorai says 12, also darshening "al".

Devarim pereq 19:
    v. 2 "SHALOSH arim tavdil lekha..."
    v. 7 "... SHALOSH arim tavdil lekha..."
    v. 9 "... veyasavta lekha OD SHALOSH areim AL HASHALOSH ha'eileh."

The point I'm highlighting, though, is that arei miqlat are presumed to
be needed in the messianiac era, and needed in some kind of proportion
to the greater size of EY. And yet galus is only for someone who was
likely criminally negligent. Real accidents are pardoned.

So it seems that the Y-i does not expect there to be a signficant decline
in criminal negligence le'asid lavo.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If a person does not recognize one's own worth,
mi...@aishdas.org        how can he appreciate the worth of another?
http://www.aishdas.org             - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye,
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef



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Message: 10
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 14:23:51 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] It won't all be perfect?


On 16/12/2013 1:48 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> The point I'm highlighting, though, is that arei miqlat are presumed to
> be needed in the messianiac era, and needed in some kind of proportion
> to the greater size of EY. And yet galus is only for someone who was
> likely criminally negligent. Real accidents are pardoned.
>
> So it seems that the Y-i does not expect there to be a signficant decline
> in criminal negligence le'asid lavo.

Why would it be inconsistent with a significant decline, even a massive
decline, so long as it didn't go all the way down to zero?

Also, even in the case of an accident the killer may need to take refuge
until he gets a judicial determination of his innocence, and thus of his
immunity from the goel hadam.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan



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Message: 11
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 14:26:53 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] kotel shul status


On 16/12/2013 1:04 PM, saul newman wrote:
> http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com/2013/12/interestin
> g-psak-davening-in-azarat.html
>
> apparently , designating any area along the  kotel perimeter as  egalitarian prayer area thereby assurs it  24-7 for  O  prayer .....

I don't see the logic here.  Lav kol keminaihu of the government to turn
a part of the BHMK into a place of zenus.  Just as idolaters don't have the
power to turn a mountain or any other part of Hashem's creation into an AZ
merely by worshipping it, the government can't desanctify any part of the
BHMK, even by erecting an image in the heichal, let alone by simply declaring
that it will not prevent sinners from doing their thing there.


-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan



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Message: 12
From: Chesky Salomon <chesky.salo...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 19:08:32 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Yosef, a despot or a brilliant strategist and


On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Alexander Seinfeld <seinf...@jsli.org> wrote:
> I have the full text of Twain?s ?Concerning the Jews? and cannot find the
> passage you are quoting. On the contrary, the entire essay is extremely
> semiphilic. What is your source?

See <
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3251/3251-h/3251-h.htm#link2H_4_0008>
.

--Chesky



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Message: 13
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 13:06:04 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] The Significance of Minhag Ashkenaz


The following is from http://www.moreshesashkenaz.org/en/guide (the 
English version)  page 26.

Similarly to the Chasam Sofer, many other great Torah sages recognized
the significance of Minhag Ashkenaz. Its spokesmen enthusiastically
praised it for many centuries and saw in the traditions of other lands a
veering from the authentic tradition. The Rambam, who was in a position
to judge Minhag Ashkenaz objectively, as he did not live in Ashkenazic
lands, wrote that the western Europeans were "unaffected by tainted
practices and by the trends and paths that the current sages take. All their
ways agree with the Talmudic text."

And from page 29

Among those stands out the Sephardic codifier, R' Yosef
Karo, who cites these words of the Rosh in their entirety without
reservation in his Beis Yosef. The historical background of the Rosh's
approach is provided by R' Yakov Emden:

The Ashkenazic Jews have a sturdy tradition, as the Rosh writes in
his letter, more reliable than that of the Sephardim, even
considering their known roots from the time of the exile from
Jerusalem. They had their great sages in Babylonia, leaders and
teachers such as R' Moshe and his son R' Chanoch, and from then
on they produced more great Torah sages, but before that period
they had been very empty. The Talmud had not reached them at all.
However, Ashkenazic Jewry had yeshivos continuously, generation
after generation, from the time of the Churban. They put their souls
into the knowledge of the Torah and its observance, following its
laws of justice and other halachos. Therefore, it is certain that their
correct knowledge of its details goes back farther.

The Rosh made his statement in the context of personal experience, but the
Maharil endorsed it as a general ruling and used it in deciding the halachah
and teaching it to the public. In one of his letters, the Maharil writes, "Our
tradition is superior, as the Rosh writes in his letter....Therefore, let us
reject other traditions in deference to ours."

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Message: 14
From: saul newman <newman...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 09:14:56 -0800
Subject:
[Avodah] what's your source


http://www.alephbeta.org/blog/great-dvar-torah-but-what-are-your-sour
ces/

rabbi fohrman's  parsha  thoughts are  always  insightful. here is his
response to a reader  who implied  theya re too original...
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Message: 15
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:50:12 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Eating Out


On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:35:14AM EST, I quoted RMTorczner:
::    1. Tur Choshen Mishpat 368, citing Rav Sherira Gaon (10^th century Babylon)
::    ...
::    As far as your local custom, that one who purchases from bandits and
...
:: ...
::    8. Rabbi Isaac ben Sheshet Perfet (Rivash) (14^th century Spain),
::       Responsum 105
::    ...
::    [This source deals with protocols for contracts...

: I would not group CM examples with minhag in general.
: Too much of CM is dependent on expectation...
: Minhag sets expectation, so it could crate qinyanim similar to odita.

RMT noted off-list that indeed this Tur is only one of many primary
sources who do group the two.

So it would seem that while I could posit very different mechanisms
by which the minhag changes practice between CM and minhagim in rite,
the way in which they hold authority over people (who they apply to and
when one joins or can leave the population) is indeed in common.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The true measure of a man
mi...@aishdas.org        is how he treats someone
http://www.aishdas.org   who can do him absolutely no good.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Samuel Johnson



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Message: 16
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:54:49 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Scarves and Halacha


 From http://5tjt.com/scarves-and-halacha/

The Bais Yoseph lists three possible reasons why 
the custom outside of Israel has evolved not to place Tzitzis on a scarf.

1] Because the only item that is halachically 
termed a garment is something that is actually 
worn or one wraps himself in ? a scarf is only 
considered ?ha-alah ? arisen upon him.?

2] The main purpose of a kerchief is to wrap it 
around the head to protect from cold weather or 
to create shade during heat, therefore, they are 
considered garments of the head and not garments of the body.

3] The main purpose of wearing kerchiefs is to 
use them for other purposes such as wrapping up 
money, to carry fruits, to wipe off sweat, to 
gird oneself when doing labor, to wipe one?s hands, etc.

<Snip>

There may be another rationale to be lenient, and 
not round off a corner as the Chofetz Chaim seems 
to recommend.   When one does wear a scarf that 
is more than nine inches wide, the scarf is often 
folded in half ? width-wise.  If that is the 
case, there may be another reason to be lenient 
because it could be that the minimum requirement 
necessitates that the garment be worn that way as well.

See the above URL for more.  YL
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