Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 185

Sat, 29 Dec 2012

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: h Lampel <zvilam...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 12:20:08 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Rambam?s Embrace of Miracles



I wrote:
> The Rambam?s objection is to inventing the occurrence of miracles 
> where the pesukim?s peshat, or Chazal (for example regarding , do not 
> warrant it.

The parentheses are missing words. This is what the sentences should say:


> The Rambam?s objection is to inventing the occurrence of miracles 
> where the pesukim?s peshat, or Chazal, do not warrant it. (This would 
> be in contradistinction to where Chazal do warrant it, even if not the 
> peskuim's peshat, such as regarding the miracle done for Avraham Avinu 
> in Ur Kasdim, embraced by the Rambam in Hilchos Avodas Kochavim 
> 1:3--''kivan sheh-gavar aleihem b'rai'osov, bikesh ha-melech l'horgo, 
> /v'na'a'sah neis/ v'yatzah l'Charan''.)

Zvi Lampel

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Message: 2
From: Meir Shinnar <chide...@xgmail.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 12:43:36 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Mesorah


To respond in general to Micha, where I think phrasing issues matter:

We agree that the Rambam believed that his approach represented the true
mesora, albeit hidden, of hazal, and that his understanding of tanach and
midrash as consonant with truth was the true self understanding of hazal.

It is also clear that in some sense, this understanding is circular -
the truth being true, and hazal being true, they must concord - and we
must therefore determine how they agree. This is where the fundamental
disagreement is - that his understandings of both tanach and midrash is
not based on a statement that hazal say so (as RZL insists), but that
tanach and true midrash (as Rambam is willing to ignore many midrashic
statements as non binding) must be true - and therefore need to be
understood in that light, rather than that we have ma'amre hazal that
specifically understand issues in that light - although any supporting
ma'amar hazal is harnessed as proof.

this leads to understandings of hazal and TSBP that are not standard -
and many would view as being influenced by the outside(as you cite RSRH
and the gra, and I think most academic students of both TSBP and Rambam
would disagree as well), but that is a separate issue

However, his understanding of the true meaning of tanach and TSBP is
NOT predicated by the need for specific statements by hazal

Meir Shinnar



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Message: 3
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 14:24:54 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kabbala at Odds with Torah


See http://tinyurl.com/btr86f3

Yitzchok Levine 

[More discussion on the same LookJed thread. -micha]



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Message: 4
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 21:51:55 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kabbala at Odds with Torah


On 12/27/2012 9:24 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> See http://tinyurl.com/btr86f3

Why are Kabbala, Tanya, Breslov man-made works but the Rambam (apparently)
not?

Ben




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Message: 5
From: Meir Rabi <meir...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 09:44:49 +1100
Subject:
[Avodah] Lying for Peace


Rashi explains that the brothers lied and we assume they were right to lie,
since this is how they would achieve peace.

The Gemara Yevamos 65b may be interpreted as a Machlokes, between it being
PERMITTED to lie or a MITZVA to lie, for peace. Following these two
opinions there is a third comment, that peace is great, so great in fact
that the Torah repeats this lie for peace. I presume this means that the
Torah perpetuates this lie so that the descendants will not continue
to feud.

How do we know that the brothers lied? Rashi on the Gemara seems to say
nothing that we would not know ourselves, "Yakov did not command [them to
instruct Yosef not to seek revenge] rather they altered [the truth] for the
purpose of peace"
One of the Mefarshim on Medrash Rabbah, MaKeHuna, I believe, says that A)
we know they were economical with the truth since we dont find that Yakov
gave such instructions (which does not appear to be a very convincing
proof) and B) that they were certainly permitted and even commanded to lie
since they were trying to save their lives and in fact, this serves as no
proof for the rule of lying for peace. The proof emerges from the fact that
the Torah lies.

Rashi on the Passuk adds a comment which appears to be an alternative
explanation. Yakov did not issue such an instruction since it would have
been entirely unnecessary. Yakov had absolutely no doubt that Yosef would
never seek revenge.
Does this mean that Yakov knew all the facts, for otherwise how could he
have been so confident that Yosef would not seek revenge?
Is Rashi assuming that the Shevatim came to Yakov near his end in order to
beg his forgiveness and admitted to Yakov their activities against Yosef?

Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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Message: 6
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 21:45:17 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Lying for Peace


On 27/12/2012 5:44 PM, Meir Rabi wrote:
> Is Rashi assuming that the Shevatim came to Yakov near his end in order to beg his forgiveness and admitted to Yakov their activities against Yosef?

No, Rashi is assuming what he's been assuming all along, since the day
Yosef disappeared -- that Yaacov suspected the truth or worse.  In 37:33
Rashi has Yaacov playing it straight, but in 49:9, looking back on that day,
he recalls darkly hinting at an accusation.  (Perhaps one can say that at the
time the suspicion was too terrible for Yaacov to consciously entertain it,
so he suppressed it, but in hindsight he recognises that he had it already.)
And by 42:36 Rashi definitely sees Yaacov as actively suspicious. (He's had
over 20 years to think about it and is surely not suppressing anything. He's
not making any open accusations, maybe because he has no proof, and maybe
because he's afraid.)    BTW, Malbim on 37:33 already has him skeptical of
the story he's being told, and sarcastically asking: "Did this 'wild animal'
also eat my son's under-tunic?!"

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon



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Message: 7
From: David Riceman <drice...@optimum.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 08:47:24 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Mesorah


RMB:

<<I do not argue with your belief that the Rambam did in fact 
reinterpret pesuqim or other ideas in a way that was inconsistent with 
all prior understandings of the topic.
  I argue with the belief that the Rambam realized he was doing so, and 
thought it was okay to do so.>>

This is an extraordinary claim.  Do you think you understand Hazal and 
Tanach better than the Rambam did, or do you think you understand what 
the Rambam wrote better than the Rambam did, or both?

What is your evidence for your great understanding?

David Riceman




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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 09:32:43 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Mesorah


On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 08:47:24AM -0500, David Riceman wrote:
>> I do not argue with your belief that the Rambam did in fact  
>> reinterpret pesuqim or other ideas in a way that was inconsistent with  
>> all prior understandings of the topic.

>> I argue with the belief that the Rambam realized he was doing so, and  
>> thought it was okay to do so.

> This is an extraordinary claim.  Do you think you understand Hazal and  
> Tanach better than the Rambam did...

I don't find the claim so extraordinary. Do you always follow one
rishon? When you think the Ramban's or Raavad's shitah is more compelling,
are you not second-guessing the Rambam, believing that with their help
you reached a truer understanding of Chazal and Tanakh than the Rambam
did?


Add to that that we're talking about the Rambam's hashkafah, which a
large number of acharonim wrote out of the mesorah because it was overly
Greek.

I'm allowed to agree with the Vilna Ga'on's comments in his peirush (YD
179 and 246), no?

And RSRH's 19 Letters, ch 18 (I posted a longer quote in 2009 at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol26/v26n122.shtml#04>):

    The age gave birth to a man [R' Drachman's footnote: Maimonides], a
    mind, who, the product of uncomprehended Judaism and Arabic science,
    was obliged to reconcile the strife which raged in his own breast
    in his own manner, and who, by proclaiming it to the world, became
    the guide of all in whom the same conflict existed.

    This great manm to whom, and to whom alone, we owe the preservation
    of practical Judaism to our time, is responsible because he sought
    to reconcile Judaism with the difficulties which confronted it
    from without instead of developing it creatively from within, for
    all the good and the evil which bless and afflict the heritage of
    the father. His peculiar mental tendency was Arabic-Greek, and
    his conception of the purpose of life the same. He entered into
    Judaism from without, bringing with him opinions of whose truth he
    had convinced himself from extraneous sources and he reconciled.
    ...

If they and numerous others can believe the Rambam's hashkafah reflects
a misunderstanding of the aggadic side of our mesorah because it was
too Aristotelian, why does it surprise you if I stand on their pleitzos?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Live as if you were living already for the
mi...@aishdas.org        second time and as if you had acted the first
http://www.aishdas.org   time as wrongly as you are about to act now!
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning



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Message: 9
From: David Riceman <drice...@optimum.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 10:14:59 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Mesorah


Me:
>> This is an extraordinary claim.  Do you think you understand Hazal and
>> Tanach better than the Rambam did...
RMB:
>>
>> I don't find the claim so extraordinary. Do you always follow one
>> rishon? When you think the Ramban's or Raavad's shitah is more compelling,
>> are you not second-guessing the Rambam, believing that with their help
>> you reached a truer understanding of Chazal and Tanakh than the Rambam
>> did?
>>
>>
What's extraordinary is your second clause:

<<I argue with the belief that the Rambam realized he was doing so, and
thought it was okay to do so.>>

When I reject an opinion I accept that there is ambiguity in the 
sources, and that the opinion I reject is tenable.  You are saying that 
the Rambam was unaware that Hazal rejected - -  I'm not sure what; maybe 
Aristotelianism, maybe the non-corporeality of angels - - and that their 
rejection is unambiguous.  I find this especially astonishing since the 
Rambam explicitly construes some mahloksim in midrash to be mahloksim 
about Aristotelian tenets.

What evidence do you have that the Rambam didn't understand what he was 
doing? Admittedly I haven't been following this discussion too closely - 
- if you've already cited it please just point.

David Riceman




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Message: 10
From: cantorwolb...@cox.net
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 10:08:37 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] The Ends Sometimes DO Justify The Means


We see in this week's parsha that Yaakov crossed his arms by putting 
Ephraim before Manasseh, even though Manasseh was the first born.
Interestingly, Yaakov crossed his father Yitzchok by taking the blessing
that was supposed to have been given to Eisav. So here we see Yaakov
crossing his father, Yitzchok, and then, years later, his son, Yosef, and 
though it provokes occasional censure by later commentators, the Torah 
actually sanctions it because of the ultimate value. 
What is also ironic is that Yitzchok is blind and at the end of his life when  
Yaakov deceives him. And Yaakov is blind and at the end of HIS life
when he double-crosses (pun intended) his son, Yosef. 
Who said that the ends don't justify the means?
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Message: 11
From: Meir Rabi <meir...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 03:41:02 +1100
Subject:
[Avodah] A Time When We Ought Not Learn Torah?


NOT learning on that night is a silent, corrosive disaster. And not just
for those who don't learn. It is parallel to the RaMBaM's fight against
adding names of various supposed spiritual entities to the Mezuzah.

Even if we tolerate others making these additions to the Mezuzah, we are
making a terrible concession that erodes the core of Yiddishkeit. In this
case one can only say that tolerance is just a concession that we are not
really sure if we are right.

This harks to my earlier discussion regarding the Maharal?s forthright
condemnation of those who are destroying the world because they Pasken
without understanding the reasoning and without troubling to analyse the
Halacha. We are encouraging avoidance of Halachic systems and quashing the
Halachic imperative and Torah?s supreme value and authority.

Yes, there are many Yidden who maintain this practice, and we may well say
they are like the Tinnok who has unfortunately had his mind hijacked. But
at least in our own mind and for the sake of understanding the direction
that our communities should be headed in, we must be clear about this.

Consider that even the RaMBaM was forced to concede and permit placing
these angelic formulations on the outside of the Mezuzah.

If it is not in the Torah, not in the Gemara, then it has no place or a
very small place, in Yiddishkeit. It certainly cannot neutralise laws of
the Torah.

Take Baruch ShaOmar for example; we Pasken that its lofty status, being "a
text that fell from heaven", does not make it MORE significant but LESS
significant: re the laws of Hefsek (Siman 51) why? because it is NOT IN THE
GEMARA.

The RaMBaM did not win his fight, he was forced to concede, to at least
allow their perversion to the outside of the Mezuzah. And today, a Mezuzah
without these kabbalistic inscriptions would probably be deemed to be
Passul. Not just, "make sure it is there to continue tradition" but Passul.

And violation of this Biblical command is justified because we are feeding
the SitraAchra? As though HKBH is incapable of ensuring that when we follow
His commandments no evil should eventuate from our loyalty?

Surely we have strayed.

Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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Message: 12
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 19:04:46 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Vital Questions


The following is from Introduction to RSRH's Commentary on the Torah 
<http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/intro_rsrh_torah_1.pdf>Volume 
I by Rabbi Dr. Joseph Breuer

In he Preface Rav Breuer writes:

The present popularized adaptation of Hirsch's Commentary
on the Torah tends to develop the basic concepts
and ideas of our Torah which characterize Torah Judaism
in its ideological uniformity. From the extensive material
the principal explanations to the individual chapters and
verses were selected. As far as practicable, the topics are
presented in concise and popular form, as they are intended
for a wide circle of readers and, above all, for the
mature Jewish youth. They should also serve as a welcome
addition to the material of the teacher in his preparation
for Torah-instruction.

The Preface to this sefer is followed by a section with the heading 
Vital Questions. It is below.

VITAL QUESTIONS

You are Jews because you were born of a Jewish mother.
Jewish parents have reared you and taught you from
early childhood to fulfill ''Jewish" duties.
Home and School have taught you Torah: Torah is
the Holy Book which G-d gave the Jewish people through
Moshe and which, above all things, contains those duties
which every Jew has to fulfill. To this add Mishna and
Talmud and the manifold and detailed laws as laid down
in the Shulchan Oruch, equally binding and important.
You ask "Why?"

You are justified in asking this question, as you do not
want to practice out of habit what you have been taught;
especially since being a Jew often involves great sacrifices
and heavy burdens. Moshe entrusts us this Torah, emphasizing
that "our life and the length of our lives"
depends on its conscientious fulfillment. (Deut. 3 0, 2).
This is what we are praying daily in the evening: "We
rejoice in the words of Your Torah and Your duties, for
they determine our life and the length of our lives"WHY?

You are Jews, sons and daughters of the Jewish people.
Are the Jewish people a nation as other nations? If not,
what makes them different? You see your people dispersed
among other nations, suffering more than all of
them. Why? You know that your people once occupied
country and state: Palestine, Eretz Yisroel. That was a
long time ago, almost two thousand years. Do we still
have a claim to "our country"?

You see your people living in the midst of the nations.
They all have their history telling them what they fought
for and what they achieved, telling of struggles and
victories and defeats, of rise and decline: World-History,
History of Nations, History of mankind-is there a
meaning to all this?

You ask: What does it mean to be a Jew? You should
and could ask further: What is life for? Does human
life have a meaning? Man is but a part of a gigantic nature,
earth and all that fills it are but part of the universe
-is there a meaning to the entire creation as it surrounds
you? If there is no meaning to it, the greatest and the
smallest creature in this world without purpose and goal,
then your life is also meaningless.

Meaningless? Sound human judgment will deny this
evaluation. And the scientist "discovers" wherever he
searches, as Physicist or Chemist, Zoologist or Botanist,
Physiologist or Astronomer-he discovers-laws, mysterious
and immeasurable, true, but laws. And where
there are laws there must be a "Law-Giver." That is G-d.
You possess the Torah, the holy book which, you have
been taught, G-d gave to your people through Moshe.

Are you to believe in it? Belief is a state of insecurity,
uncertainty-yet G-d's Torah asks Emunah of you, confidence,
a child's faith which he offers to his guardian (uman)
or adult friend whose leadership he eagerly desires. For
without it he would be hopelessly lost. It is this unreserved,
boundless faith which the Torah expects of you.
You must work on yourself to achieve this attitude, this
faith. Torah is derived from Yoreh, "to teach" and at the
same time from Horah  "to plant a cell into an organism
from which life blossoms." Torah begets life, it is the precept,
the science of life-without it there would be no
sense and meaning to your life. Once you fully comprehend
this thought you will not continue to merely believe
in G-d's Torah. You will be firmly convinced of the
Torah's supreme importance to your life. For without
its guiding and shining light your life would be engulfed
in a sea of darkness and emptiness. Only the Torah can
help us to such firm conviction. Let us so read the Torah
that it will become more and more G-d's Torah.

Then only will you truly comprehend Judaism, will
you become Jews, conscious Jews, who know the meaning
of life, its duties and demands, and who are cognizant of
the tasks their people are being called upon to perform.
have a claim to "our country"?

Yitzchok Levine 
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Message: 13
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 18:49:35 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] The Core of the Future Jewish People


What profession do you think is the most ideal for a Jewish 
man?  Rosh Yeshiva,  rabbi,  lawyer,  accountant,  doctor,  dentist, etc.

The following is from the  Introduction to RSRH's Commentary on the 
Torah 
<http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/intro_rsrh_torah_2.pdf>Volume 
II by Rabbi Dr. Joseph Breuer and is from the commentary on Yaakov's 
brachos in parshas Va'Yichi pages 72 to 73.

In Issachar he [Yaakov]  sees the core of his future people: the
Jewish farmer, the working-man, full of strength ("a nimble
beast of burden"), resting after the labor at the fire-place
of his home "between the row of dishes". He works to
obtain the leisure which is the most precious fruit of his
labor - "realizing that the leisure is good" - for it gives
him time to devote himself to the study of the Torah. He
knows that not business and trade but the work on the
soil offers such time of leisure - realizing that "the soil
fits this aim"; therefore, he gladly takes upon himself the
heavy burden of the farmer, "bows his shoulder to bear",
and performs the "taxing" chore of the peasant. Issachar
became the most intellectual tribe of the Jewish nation -
and this was the Jewish farmer!
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