Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 122

Tue, 04 Sep 2012

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 18:45:48 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Amida with 24 brachot

On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 02:14:06PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> When do we have an Amida with 24 brachot?

A Taanis Tzibur due to a drought. (Or other eis tzrarah?) But only
before Velameshumadim (today's nusach: Velamalshinim) was added; or
if your ancestors had the now-defunct minhag of unifying Bonei Y-m
and Es Tzemach, only after they switched.

Taanis, mishnah 2:3-4. You'll notice the mishnah says 16 berakhos are
added, but 7 appear to be named. The gemara (16b, and it's in the Y-mi
too) says that's beause one was a modification of Go'el Yisrael.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of
mi...@aishdas.org        heights as long as he works his wings.
http://www.aishdas.org   But if he relaxes them for but one minute,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      he plummets downward.   - Rav Yisrael Salanter

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Message: 2
From: saul newman <newman...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 18:33:00 -0700
[Avodah] siyum kaddish

i saw a discussion in a siyum related publication regarding the siyum
kaddish , and whether those who are zoche to 2 living  parents should defer
that kaddish. i haven't seen that done , though maybe  all the msayemim
have been ysomim...
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Message: 3
From: menucha <m...@inter.net.il>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 06:40:51 +0300
Re: [Avodah] Amida with 24 brachot

Lisa Liel wrote:
> When do we have an Amida with 24 brachot?

See Rambam Hilchot Taaniot perek 4.

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Message: 4
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 15:59:25 +0300
[Avodah] Mezuzah

Ari Zivotofsky has an article on kissing mezuzot in the latest Jewish
Action. In particularly he references an article In Techumim (10:417) on
the mezuzah as a segulah by R. Y. Lichtenstein.

I enclose a brief summary

In Chazal
1) The Mezuzah should be on the outer tefach of the house to protect the
entire house. For a wordly king the guards waych over the king but now G-d
watches over man,
2) The story with Onkeles touching the Mezuzah while being taken away by
the Roman soldiers with a similar message
3) Yerushalmi - Atevan sent a diamond to Rebbi and in return Rebbe sent him
a Mezuzah. When Artavan complained Rebbe answerwed that you sent me
something that I need to watch while I sent to you something that watches
over you (whole discussion in commentaries on how Rebbe sent a Mezuzah to a
Gentile and how it protects him)

Rashi explains that the protection the Mezuzah gives is from "Mazikim"
(demons), Maharam Rotenberg states that any house that has Mezuzot is
protected from
Mazikim. In his house he had 24 mezuzot including his winter home and the
gate to the public etc.
In his bet medrash where he occasionally slept he had problems (ruach ra-ah
me-va-ato) until he put up a mezuzah there.

Many rishonim added the names of angels to the parshiyot of mezuzah. It was
done in a way so it was clear it was not part of the parsha and so no
problem of ba-al tosif. (includes sefer hapardes and machzor vitri of
Rashi). Other rishonim eg
semag claim that it is still a problem of ba-al tosif.

As expected Rambam disagrees and says that the Mezuzah does not protect
from Mazikim but rather it protects the person from sin and so G-d protects
the house.
The Rosh agrees with Rambam.

Maharil and later RMF allow allow using a mezuzah as a kameah (I assume
meaning wearing around the neck) including the names of angels. RMF argues
that even Rambam would agree that when it is not used as a mitzvah (ie on
the sidepost of the room) it is okay and proves it from the story that
Rebbe sent a Mezuzah to Artevan. OTOH Beer Sheva prohibits using a Mezuzah
as a kameah.

As discussed above there is another section on giving a Mezuzah to a nonJew.

Eli Turkel
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Message: 5
From: saul newman <saulnewma...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 12:19:07 -0700
[Avodah] MbP

does metzitza bepeh , according to the communities that practice it,
rise to the level of such an ikuv, that one who was gemal'ed without
it  needs a later MbP , eg at conversion, before marriage , etc?

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Message: 6
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 19:49:01 -0400
Re: [Avodah] MbP

On 3/09/2012 3:19 PM, saul newman wrote:
> does metzitza bepeh , according to the communities that practice it,
> rise to the level of such an ikuv, that one who was gemal'ed without
> it  needs a later MbP , eg at conversion, before marriage , etc?

Of course not.  Even if one didn't do metzitzah at all there's no do-over,
although it's required lechol hade'os, and is clearly a part of the mitzvah.
What would one do, exactly, to correct it?  Hatafas dam (which does not
include metzitzah)?!  That would be ridiculous.  No, if metzitzah was
omitted the mohel must be fired, and the mitzvah was not done properly,
but the child is a nimol.   Kal vachomer if it was done but improperly.

Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 09:48:09 -0400
[Avodah] FaceBook and Elul

From <http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/facebook-inspired-repentance>
by R Elie Klein, posted yesterday (3-Sep-2012):

    On December 22, 2011, Facebook introduced its new profile user
    interface, Facebook Timeline. For a while, users were able to choose
    whether or not they wanted to adopt the new format. But after several
    months, Facebook began spreading the word that resistance was futile
    -- all pages would have to adopt Timeline. Whether they wanted to
    or not.
    While I still cannot stand the "ticker" feature (if I wanted to look
    at a ticker feed all day, I would have traded stocks), I must say
    that I have come to genuinely appreciate Timeline. There are two
    main reasons.

    First, it had always been very difficult finding old posts. ...

    Second, Timeline has helped me prepare for the High Holy Days.

    Confused? Appalled? Read on.

    As far back as I can remember, the Jewish month of Elul was a
    perplexing time for me. In anticipation of the High Holy Days,
    teachers, rabbis and other assorted figures of authority would exhort
    the importance of introspection and repentance, but the methods they
    explained and the examples they used never really spoke to me. For
    example, they almost always parroted the famous phrase that begins
    the second chapter of "Ethics of our Fathers:"

        "Know what is above you -- a seeing eye, a hearing ear, and all
        of your deeds written down in a book." (Pirkei Avot 2:1)

    While the concept lies at the very core of our belief system,
    the image of a book didn't resonate with me. I am not saying that I
    dismissed it -- I believe it to be the absolute truth. It's just that
    the image didn't help me get into an introspective mood. "After all,"
    I thought, "even the most important books are shelved and forgotten
    at some point."

    What did work was adding multimedia to the equation.

    As I see it, Timeline takes it to the next level.

    Take a look at your Facebook Timeline and then imagine that it
    is your actual timeline, every moment of your life from birth to
    death clearly documented in text, photos and videos. Imagine that
    you are on the witness stand defending every moment of your life --
    unable to deny a single thing because everything is in an easy-to-use
    chronological filing system.

    (This may, in fact, be the exact image that the sages hoped to conjure
    by referring to that ominous "book." But I believe that even Rabbi
    Yohanan Ben Zakkai would agree that an upgrade is warranted if it does
    the trick to jumpstart our generation's teshuva [atonement] process.)

    So, as we approach the Days of Awe be sure to keep the following in
    mind: Just as you wouldn't post a status on your Facebook Timeline
    that you didn't want everyone to see and have easy access to for
    eternity, you shouldn't do or say anything in the "real world" that
    you wouldn't want opposing counsel to effortlessly produce via your
    life's timeline on Judgment Day.

    Food for thought.

    Dip it in honey, digest it and have a sweet new year.

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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 12:09:02 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Chazon Ish on treifot

In the thread by this post's title, along with numberous others (see links
as-of 2010 at <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol27/v27n134.shtml#09>), we
discussed the CI's position that the 2 millennia of Torah (from Avraham
to the mishnah) have special halachic power, and therefore the list of
tereifos set then can't be changed.

Among the questions raised was what this meant for people born during
those 2 millennia but lived past the compilation of the mishnah. Would
they be tannaim until the end of that era, and then tannaitic authority
ends regardless of who is still alive? How precise of a line do these
eras have?

Well, this Y-mi appears relevent.

The misnhah Kesuvos 1:7 discusses the case where she says "mukas eitz ani"
and he says "lo, ki ele derusas ish at!" Rabban Bamliel and R' Eliezer
hold we believe her WRT her kesuvah. Rabbi Yehoshua says "lo mipiha anu
chayim" unless she can bring some ra'yah.

In the Y-mi (1:9, vilna daf 7a), R' Yaaqov bar Acha besheim R' Yoshiyah says:
    Halakhah keRabban Gamliel ukeRabbi Eliezer,
    mishum shenayim sharabu al echad.

R' Yosi doesn't like this phrasing -- if it's halakhah, why mention 2
vs 1, and if it's because of 2 vs 1, why mention halakhah? I'm not sure
what R' Yosi's problem is. I had two possibilities:
1- He didn't like the redundancy, or
2- If we say "halakhah ke-" we're saying their shitah is inherently
stronger, not something like azlinan basar ruba.

Anyway, the gemara answers:
    In yisvor Rabbi Yochanan keR' Yehoshua,
    ein halakhah keR' Gamliel ukeR' Eliezezer,
    ela R' Yehoshua.

Because the majority is only 2 vs 1, all it would take is one tanna to
make the sides equal. R' Yaaqov bar Acha in the name of R' Yoshiyah is
saying that if they were equal in number, R' Yehoshua's shitah would
have been more compelling.

Now on to my opening thought.

Who is the R' Yochanan in question who could have changed the tide?

If the double wording is R' Yoshiyah's, then we are speaking of someone
earlier than R' Yoshiyah. Otherwise, why wouldn't he have just added his
own vote to tie up the sides? R' Yochanan could be R' Yochanan ben Nuri, a
contemporary of R' Yoshiyah's rebbe, R' Yishmael (as well as of R' Aqiva).

However, one is left asking why the lashon asid of "im yisvor"?

If the doubled language is R' Yaaqov bar Acha's, then we don't have that
problem; he's an amora and not a bar pelugta of anyone in the mishnah. But
R' Yochanan bar Nafcha (Reish Laqish's rebbe, brother-in-law, and friend)
was still alive when RYbA lived. Someone who was alive before the close
of the mishnah -- R' Yochanan was 15 when Rebbe was niftar and lived
around a century (180ce - 280ce is suggested in Hebrew wiki).

It would be interesting if RYBA was saying that R' Yochanan could still
"vote" as a tanna even though the two millenia that gave tannaim their
authority had ended decades before!

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             I long to accomplish a great and noble task,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it is my chief duty to accomplish small
http://www.aishdas.org   tasks as if they were great and noble.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Helen Keller

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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 12:25:54 -0400
Re: [Avodah] MbP

On Mon, Sep 03, 2012 at 12:19:07PM -0700, saul newman wrote:
: does metzitza bepeh , according to the communities that practice it,
: rise to the level of such an ikuv, that one who was gemal'ed without
: it  needs a later MbP , eg at conversion, before marriage , etc?

As already noted, a lack of metzitzah does not make one an arel. But
leaving someone an areil may be an overly strict criterion for deciding
the issue. If metzitzah is part of milah (rather than a taqanah based on
refuah) and if metzitzah must be bepeh, we're talking about the total
abandonment of a chiyuv deOraisa that is important enough to outrank

Tir'u baTov!

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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 12:31:43 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Avoiding Sefeikos, Ben Pekuah and Fruit from

On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 07:42:07PM +1000, Meir Rabi wrote:
:> But the general question of whether it's a bad thing to engineer an
:> avoidance of a qiyum asei in order to avoid poasible issurim is itself
:> an interesting one. It reminds me of the people on-list who preferred
:> eating non-Israeli produce so as to avoid making mistakes in hafrashas
:> teruman uma'aser....

: I should like to make the following observations:
: Requiring Shechita MiDeRabbanan does not promote it to the preferred Torah
: option, if there is such a thing.

I could have cited other examples.

R' Amital contrasted his approach to pesaq with RALichtenstein's. One
Shabbos - Erev Rosh Chodesh, RAL moved his sichah to be after seudah
shelishis, so that once doesn't run into the question of whether to say
Retzei, Yaaleh veYavo or both when benching at the end of shalashudis.
RAL said he would prefer someone pasqen according to his conscience
rather than avoid the question.

: However, BP has only upsides, unless we suggest that Shechita has a
: positive spiritual value, as does removing Gid and Cheilev.

I already said I wasn't thinking in this direction, but now that you
raise it... Shechitas chullin does have linkage to qadshim. So perhaps
it does have "positive spiritual value" beyond just being a matir.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
mi...@aishdas.org        Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
http://www.aishdas.org   beyond measure
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Anonymous

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Message: 11
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 19:00:31 +0300
Re: [Avodah] FaceBook and Elul

My Facebook and Elul experience was to quit Facebook.



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