Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 49

Thu, 24 May 2012

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: eli.neuber...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 16:34:09 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] Source needed


What is the source of the minhag to read a shtar hatanaim on Shavous
morning?




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Message: 2
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 17:50:22 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Source needed


On 23/05/2012 12:34 PM, eli.neuber...@gmail.com wrote:
> What is the source of the minhag to read a shtar hatanaim on Shavous
> morning?

This is the first I've heard of it, but I also heard yesterday of a
Sefardi minhag to read a ketuba during hotza'at sefer torah.  Presumably
they have the same origin, whatever it is.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon



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Message: 3
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 17:48:49 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] What's special about shevet Shimon?


On 23/05/2012 11:23 AM, shalomy...@comcast.net wrote:
> In Bamidbar, we get the count of all the tribes. The language for all 12 is
> identical: "tolodosam, l'mishpchosam, l'vays avosam b'mispar..." except for
> Shimon: " "tolodosam, l'mishpchosam, l'vays avosam PECUDAYV b'mispar..." (1:22)
>
> What's special about Shimon?

Malbim suggests that while all the other shevatim had grown since the
first count of 600K after yetziat mitzrayim, Shimon's numbers remained
the same, since the incoming cohort of 20-year-olds was exactly matched
by those who died after the egel.

He also comments on each of the other anomalies in the 12 descriptions
in that parsha.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon



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Message: 4
From: T6...@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 01:12:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Gishmaychem



 
From: shalomy...@comcast.net


In the beginning of Parasha  Behuchosai (26:4): "V'natati gishmaychem 
b'itam..." 

What does it mean to  say "YOUR rain"? We can't find anyone who comments on 
this, nor any other  use of "gishmaychem" anywhere in Tanach. 

Thoughts? 

 
>>>>>
 
Rashi comments there on the word "be'itam": the rain will fall at times  
when people don't generally go out, like Friday nights.
 
In a footnote to the Silbermann Chumash  R' A. M. Silbermann  writes:"The 
word gishmaychem, 'your rain,' already implies that it shall fall at  the 
time when you require it, i.e., at the proper agricultural seasons;  'be'itam' 
is therefore taken to suggest a further blessing--that the rain shall  fall 
also at times when you will not be inconvenienced by it."
 
So "YOUR rain" means rain that falls when you need it, in the right  season.
"Be'itam" means at convenient times.
 
 
 



--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good  values, good family, good  hair


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Message: 5
From: Akiva Blum <yda...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 09:01:22 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] L?shem Yichud


On 23-May-12 6:30 AM, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
>
> I thought I once shared this story online, but I can't find it in my 
> email archives. The Noda B'Yehuda, in his famous teshuva against 
> reciting the "l'shem Yichud" says that this is "v'chasidim yikashlu 
> bam" (playing on the pasuk that talks about posh'im). Supposedly, a 
> chassidish printer, years later, reprinted the Noda B'Yehuda, and 
> changed the word v'chasidim back to the original words of the pasuk, 
> u'posh'im. He came to his Rebbe to tell him what he did, and the Rebbe 
> didn't like it; he said, "B'shlomah the Nodah B'Yehuda, took Posh'im 
> and made them Chasidim. You are taking Chasidim and making them Posh'im!"
>
> Don't know if the story is true, but it's a good story. :-)
>
>

It's in Mekor Baruch and "Recollections", though there the report was 
taken back to the Noda Bihudah.

Akiva
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Message: 6
From: Simon Montagu <simon.mont...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 08:30:09 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Source needed


On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 12:50 AM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> On 23/05/2012 12:34 PM, eli.neuber...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> What is the source of the minhag to read a shtar hatanaim on Shavous
>> morning?
>
>
> This is the first I've heard of it, but I also heard yesterday of a
> Sefardi minhag to read a ketuba during hotza'at sefer torah. ?Presumably
> they have the same origin, whatever it is.

AIUI the Shavu`ot ketubba originated among talmidei Ha'Ari in C16
Ts'fat, e.g. R. Yisra'el Najara, as part of (or connected to) the
formalization of Tikkun Leil Shavu`ot.



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Message: 7
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 05:23:39 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Gishmaychem


On 24/05/2012 1:12 AM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> Rashi comments there on the word "be'itam": the rain will fall at times when people don't generally go out, like Friday nights.

Which shows that they didn't have sholom zochors in 12th century France.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon



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Message: 8
From: "Chana Luntz" <Ch...@kolsassoon.org.uk>
Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 12:25:17 +0100
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] [Areivim] Asifa - Lose Olam Haba


RMB wrote (On Areivim):

>I think RnTK is right. Anyone who was firmly within the target audience
>realized it was guzma. I -- and I'm not from that population -- listened
>to the audio stream, it never struck me otherwise.

>Halakhah is made by going to your own rav, or his rav, or... and so on.
>Posqim know it, even if publishers and promulgators might pretend
>otherwise. Daas Torah is (as I wrote on Avodah) a system for getting
>Torah-influenced advice, not pesaq. So, not following the rules for pesaq
>is not shocking, and I would not take the words of a gadol baTorah in
>a way that does surprise when other alternatives exist.

I am not so sure that you are right, or within the mindset of the people who
were making the claim.

There is a teshuvah of the Chatam Sofer (Choshen Mishpat 116) which
discussed the calling of an "assifas hamevorim".  The local Sar had put a
new tax on the community, and the community leaders were trying to work out
how to raise the money to pay it.  So they called for all individuals to
come to the asifa but only around 30 baalei battim came, and they agreed to
choose nine balei battim - 3 wealthy, 3 middle class and 3 poor and they
would agree with the  community leaders how to raise the money - and they
all agreed to raise money in a certain way, all except one of the nine balei
battim, who disagreed with the plan.  And the question to the Chatam Sofer
was could they go ahead with the plan, even though it involved taking money,
inter alia, from this one of the nine balei batim against his will and from
the rest of the community which seems to have been passive in this whole
thing.

And the Chatam Sofer held that they could.  He held that despite only thirty
baal habatim coming to the asifa (spelt aleph samech yud feh heh) in any
event, since it was announced publically that all the community in the city
should come to determine what to do about such and such business one who did
not come  behold it is like he gave over to those who did come the
permission to make whatever decision they wanted.  And he then held that
even though one of the nine objected, it was legitimate to follow majority
rule of those who did come.  He added though the need for the agreement of
the Chaver HaIr or Morah D'asra for a community enactment to be enacted on
the community (noting that some hold this is only needed when we are dealing
with a fine or with artisan enactments and the like) so they needed to get
the Rav on board as well.

Note this is (of course, and as the Chatam Sofer references) only a small
part of a huge literature on community enactments, their force and validity.
Asifos are not a new radical, unheard of, halachic entity.  They are
something of a known quantity - albeit only to those who spend a fair bit of
time in Choshen Mispat (the reality of today's halachic life and the role
played by the non Jewish or Israeli government means that these halachos
have not really been halacha l'ma'ase for a while).

Now in the case the Chatam Sofer was discussing, there was no question as to
who was the community (the ones subject to the tax, after all).  In our
case, part of the fuzziness is "who is the community".  While the Chatam
Sofer might well legitimately say that those who heard about and did not
come to the asifa gave their proxy to those who did, he would not say the
same about those who might have been in that town on that day, and heard
about it, but lived elsewhere.  So those card carrying Modern Orthodox, who
would not go near such a thing with a barge pole, can probably only be
included to the extent that you write them out of Orthodoxy altogether.  BUT
for those who *did* heed the call - and it was very clear that within
numerous communities there was serious and sustained pressure to come (eg
the reported case of the Rav who said if people didn't go, they needn't
bother coming back to his shiur) -there is an argument to say that by doing
so, they joined themselves to the community and are thus subject to any
decrees that the community made.  And my guess as to the supposed role of
the Shevet haLevi was to function as the Chaver HaIr (who in the ideal
should be one of the gadolei hador, although Yiftach b'dor etc as the poskim
frequently cite).

Of course, the Asifa of the Chatam Sofer did what it set out to do on the
tin, it worked out how they were going to pay the new tax.  I can
legitimately see the complaint of those that were promised one thing, where
the Asifa turned out to be something completely different, to which they
were not intending to sign up.  It seems reasonably clear that if the Asifa
had been announced to be about some completel different community issue, and
turned out to be about how to deal with the tax, the Chatam Sofer would not
so readily have deemed the agreement of the community.  

However I doubt the organisers thought they had promised one thing and
delivered something different, so I really am not at all convinced that this
was meant as guzma rather than a serious halachic reference.  I agree may be
upping the ante to start bringing Choshen Mishpat ideas last seriously
implemented during the Council of the Four Lands into modern day American
life - but isn't that the way these communities are increasingly trying to
go?

>Tir'u baTov!
>-Micha

Regards

Chana








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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 11:19:07 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Strengthening Our Belief in Hashem and His Beautiful


 From R' Chaim Jachter's "Halacha Files", from the weekly Kol Torah
published by the Torah Academy of Bergen County
<http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/13-31%20Truth%20of%20Hashem%20and%20Tor
ah.htm>.
Attached in full.

(H/T R' Moshe Snow, who is RCJ's chavrusah, and was my son Zack's rebbe
at JEC-RTMA (the HS named for REMT's father) for much of this past year.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Strengthening Our Belief in Hashem and His Beautiful Torah
by Rabbi Chaim Jachter

Introduction

It is worthwhile to occasionally explore the foundations of our beliefs
and lives. Thus, I wish to share with readers of Kol Torah why I am
completely convinced of the truth of Hashem and His Holy Torah. I wish to
present five approaches that I have found exceedingly convincing. I wish
to follow the Rambam's example from the introduction to his commentary
to Pirkei Avot (called the Shemonah Perakim) and clarify that some of
the ideas I will present come from outside our Tradition. The Rambam
urges us in this context "to accept the Truth whatever its source."

Introduction

It is important to clarify that I do not seek to "prove" Hashem's
existence, because as modern philosophers have noted, this is not a
productive exercise. Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik in his classic essay The
Lonely Man of Faith cites Soren Kierkegaard's (a major mid-nineteenth
century religious philosopher) reaction when hearing that the medieval
philosopher Anselm of Canterbury engaged in prayer an entire evening
beseeching God to help him formulate his celebrated Ontological Proof of
God's Existence. Kierkegaard, in turn, asked, does a bride in the embrace
of her beloved bridegroom require proof of his existence? Kierkegaard
argues that Anselm's intense prayer constituted a more authentic "proof"
of God than the Ontological Proof.

Moreover, modern philosophers (such as Descartes and Kant) have
demonstrated that one can "prove" very little, if anything. Descartes
notes that one cannot prove that other people exist, as perhaps it is
merely an evil demon that is painting a false image on one's brain to
fool one into thinking that others exist. Despite the inability to prove
the existence of others, I nevertheless am one hundred percent convinced
of the existence of others. Similarly, I am thoroughly convinced of the
Truth of Hashem and His Torah.

Rav Elchanan Wasserman -- The Argument from Design

Rav Elchanan Wasserman (in his Kovetz Maamarim) argues that it is
obvious that there is a God from the fact that we see order in this
world. Common sense teaches that this is impossible for this to happen by
itself and thus it is obvious that the world has a Creator. Philosophers
have traditionally referred to this type of proof as the argument from
design. Many earlier Jewish philosophers such as Rabbeinu Bachya espoused
this argument for Hashem's existence.

Rav Elchanan takes this argument one step further arguing that it is
also obvious that the Creator would provide a manual on how to function
in the world He created. We may draw an analogy to a car manufacturer
who provides a manual on how to operate the car he has created. So too,
argues Rav Elchanan, common sense dictates that Hashem provided a manual,
namely the Torah, for humans to know how to act.

Ramban and Kuzari -- Mesorah

For the Ramban (commentary to Shemot 13:16) and the Kuzari the most
persuasive argument for faith in Torah is Tradition. As the Kuzari notes,
the miracles associated with great events in Jewish history, Yetziat
Mitzrayim and Maamad Har Sinai, were witnessed by millions of people who
passed this information to their descendants year after year at their
Seders. This is unlike the miracles claimed by other religions that are
described as having occurred before a very limited number of people.

One might argue that Bnei Yisrael accepted the Torah because they
were a docile and gullible people who accepted anything and everything
that Moshe Rabbeinu told them, because of his seductive and persuasive
oratory. However, this is hardly true as Bnei Yisrael regrettably were
constantly bickering and disobedient to Moshe Rabbeinu. Moreover, Moshe
Rabbeinu was a very poor speaker. Virtually the only time we were unified
was at Har Sinai (see Rashi Shemot 19:1). The reason we united at Sinai
was that the authenticity of the Har Sinai experience was profoundly
compelling and unquestionably persuasive.

Similarly, we find in every generation that observant Jews are not
passive and gullible people who are accepting of everything. Every
significant Talmudic and Halachik issue is carefully examined and great
experts and laypeople vigorously and rigorously analyze every new and
old opinion. Yet observant Jews agree upon core values and beliefs such
as the divine authorship of the torah. The Rambam (Hilchot Mamrim 1:3)
indicates that if there is no dispute regarding a particular law then this
law must originate as a tradition from Sinai. Examples of such laws are
the Halacha that our Tefillin must be colored black and that our Mezuzot
contain only the two Parshiot of Shema and Vihaya Im Shamoa. I have often
surmised that these matters must be of heavenly origin; otherwise, we
would be fighting rigorously about these laws in the manner we do about
so many other Halachot.

Incidentally, it seems that this is the reason why the Sefer HaChinuch
(21) rules that women are obligated in the Mitzvah of Sippur Yetziat
Mitzrayim (recounting the story of our Exodus from Egypt) even though it
is a time-bound positive Mitzvah from which women are normally excused
(see the Minchat Chinuch's criticism of the chinuch's ruling. The
essence of Sippur Yetziat Mitzrayim is the transmittal of faith from
one generation to another by recounting and authenticating the Exodus
story. Women are thus certainly included in this Mitzvah. This also
explains why grandparents play such an important role to in Sippur
Yetziat Mitzrayim (see Shemot 10:2 and the comments of the Oznayim
LaTorah ad. loc.). Josh Strobel of TABC uses a similar argument to
explain the Ramban's opinion that women are obligated to count the Omer
(see my Bikkurei Sukkah section 60).

The Argument from Jewish History -- The Aruch Hashulchan

The Aruch Hashulchan (Orach Chaim 1:10) wrote (in 1903):

"There is no greater sign and proof than our survival of nearly two
thousand years of Exile. The only reason for our survival is because of
Hashem's Hashgacha (divine providence) that is not removed from us even
for a moment like a father who watches over his only child and chastises
him for the latter's benefit."

Indeed, one who ponders the wonders of Jewish history realizes that
logically we should have disappeared long ago. Our survival attests to
the fact that Hashem watches over His special people. Indeed, the stories
of Am Yisrael's close encounters with extinction in the Tanach (such as
the infertility of Avraham Avinu and Sarah Imeinu as well as Yitzchak
Avinu and Rivkah Imeinu, the Exodus from Mitzrayim and the parting of
the Yam Suf, and being saved from Haman) have been repeated in our time.

The Jewish People seemed to have been lost and finished as a nation after
World War II. Yet we managed to establish Medinat Yisrael in 1948 despite
overwhelming odds. Rav Yehuda Amital (Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivat Har Etzion)
has often commented that some future historians will likely cast grave
doubts on the authenticity of the story of a downtrodden people, who lost
a third of its people within six years, who, three years later, managed to
reestablish its homeland in an extremely hostile environment by throwing
seltzer bottles from planes and firing fake cannons (such as the Davidka).

In America, as well as Israel, sociologists in the 1950's predicted
that Orthodox Judaism would soon disappear. Look Magazine in the 1950's
ran a famous cover story entitled "The Vanishing Orthodox Jew." Baruch
Hashem, at this point, there are (Bli Ayin Hara) approximately one
million Orthodox Jews in this country (including Chareidi and Modern
Orthodox Jews) and the once popular Look Magazine has vanished. Moreover,
Orthodox Jewry is the only group of Jews that is, with Hashem's help,
increasing in numbers.

Interestingly, Akiva Weiss of TABC has suggested (also see Rav
Soloveitchik's Kol Dodi Dofeik) that the reason that this generation is
the one that Hashem has decided to create Medinat Yisrael, is that this
was necessary to facilitate the continuation of our faith in Torah after
the Holocaust. Indeed, Rav Soloveitchik recalled that when he traveled
from Boston to New York to give Shiur at Yeshiva University during the
Second World War, he constantly encountered missionaries who argued
that the Holocaust was "proof" that Hashem had abandoned the Jewish
People. The establishment of Medinat Yisrael undermined this argument
that was used against us.

Rav Soloveitchik -- The Argument from Halacha

Rav Soloveitchik writes in his classic essay, The Ish Halacha, that the
Halacha is the most compelling proof for the truth of Torah. I understand
this to mean that the scholar (or student guided by a competent teacher)
who plumbs the depths of the Halachic system will be overwhelmed with
its beauty and majesty to the point that he is left with no other option
than to accept the divine origin of this system. It also might mean that
one who spends a lifetime dedicated to abiding by the Halachic system
will conclude that it is indeed the finest prescription for leading a
fulfilling and content life. He will also comprehend why a recurring
theme in Sefer Devarim that the Torah's rules are "Litov Lach," serve
our best interest.

Another meaning of Rav Soloveitchik's assertion appears to be the
incredible enterprise of applying the ancient Halacha to the contemporary
situation. The world in general and the Jewish People specifically in
the last hundred years have undergone a dramatic and unprecedented degree
of change in all area ranging from technology to sociology and political
reality. Nonetheless, Poskim have readily applied the venerated concepts
of the Gemara to modern circumstances. Amazingly, Poskim find a precedent
in the Gemara for virtually every new phenomenon that emerges in society.

For example, precedents exist in the Gemara for electricity (see Sanhedrin
77), in vitro fertilization (see Chullin 70), and Jews who deviate from
Halacha who are psychologically unable to grasp their error (Sanhedrin
26). A perusal of every issue of the Israeli Torah journal Techumin
demonstrates the ability of Halacha to be applied to the contemporary
situation in Medinat Yisrael despite the fact that we had not enjoyed
political independence for nearly two thousand years.

Similarly, it is profoundly inspirational to study Tanach using the
methodologies of the teachers at Yeshivat Har Etzion's Herzog College,
such as Rav Yoel Bin Nun and Rav Elchanan Samet. They have used the
sophisticated tools of modern literary analysis that Bible critics use
to denigrate Torah, to actually provide stunningly profound insights
into Tanach and Chazal. A perusal of every issue of Megadim contains
breathtaking new insights into our holy Torah and Chazal. Indeed, Rav
Mordechai Breuer observes (in an essay published in Herzog College's
Esther Hee Haddassa p. 66) that just as the pole that Haman wished to
hang Mordechai upon was used to hang Haman, the methodologies that Bible
critics wish to use to disparage the Torah are used to bring glory to
Torah and Chazal.

Rambam on Ahavat Hashem

The Rambam (Hilchot Yesodei HaTorah 2:2) writes that an appreciation of
nature can draw one close to Hashem and love Him (Ahavat Hashem) and
stand in awe of Him (Yirat Hashem). In our generation we are given an
even greater opportunity to draw close to Hashem due to the magnificent
scientific discoveries of the last hundred years. One who contemplates
the magnificence even of the tiny e-Coli and certainly the intricacies
of the human eye has the ability to profoundly enrich his Yirat Hashem
and Ahavat Hashem.

Rav Yoel Bin Nun on Megillat Esther

One may wonder why so many intelligent people are not convinced of the
truth of Hashem and Torah. Rav Elchanan Wasserman (Kovetz Maamarim)
ascribes such lack of belief to people's wish to justify engaging in
inappropriate activities. He cites as proof the Pasuk in Tehillim (14:1)
that states "a degenerate states in his heart that there is no God."

Another explanation for this phenomenon emerges from an understanding
of the methodology of Megillat Esther as explained by Rav Yoel Bin Nun
(in an essay published in Herzog College's Esther Hee Hadassah). Rav Yoel
notes that the Megillat Esther at first glance seems quite secular. For
example, it contains no mention of God and even seems to deliberately
omit mentioning Hashem's name (see, for example, Esther 4:14-16). Rav
Yoel explains that one has to look behind the superficial presentation
of events in Megillat Esther to discover Hashem, such as why Esther
among all the beautiful women of the Persian Empire was chosen as queen,
why Mordechai foiled a plot to kill Achashveirosh, and why Achashveirosh
was sleepless and reading about Mordechai's actions the night that Haman
came to ask permission to execute Mordechai.

Similarly, the world functions today as it is depicted in Megillat
Esther. Hashem has placed a secular veneer upon the world and we must
use our common sense to peel back this secular layer in order to be able
to find Hashem. Those who do not believe in Hashem and his Torah have
not exercised their common sense and see beyond the secular surface of
our world.

Conclusion

Bertrand Russell (a British philosopher and mathematician who was a
foremost proponent of atheism in the early twentieth century) once was
asked what he will respond if after he dies he meets God and He will judge
him for his lack of belief. Russell responded that he would ask God,
why did You not provide sufficient evidence of Your existence. Hashem
might respond, why didn't you exercise your common sense and look beyond
the secular surface of the world, and see the overwhelming evidence of
My existence and of My Holy Torah.



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Message: 10
From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org
Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 09:45:13 -0700
Subject:
[Avodah] yisachar zevulun


http://www.baishavaad.com/sefira/5772/yissochor-zevulun-optimized.pdf 

interesting  number  6 ----   need  a high level learner .....
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Message: 11
From: "Rich, Joel" <JR...@sibson.com>
Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 14:03:02 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Strengthening Our Belief in Hashem and His


Conclusion

Bertrand Russell (a British philosopher and mathematician who was a
foremost proponent of atheism in the early twentieth century) once was
asked what he will respond if after he dies he meets God and He will judge
him for his lack of belief. Russell responded that he would ask God,
why did You not provide sufficient evidence of Your existence. Hashem
might respond, why didn't you exercise your common sense and look beyond
the secular surface of the world, and see the overwhelming evidence of
My existence and of My Holy Torah.
_______________________________________________
And how does one respond to the question (especially on the R'EW approach)
, if it is so patently obvious, why does the vast majority of humanity
reject your approach? AIUI  R'EW's response was it's the yetzer hara.
KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 12
From: cantorwolb...@cox.net
Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 14:10:50 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Torah Pre-Sinai


I have never received a satisfactory answer to the following question:
We are taught that the Ovos amongst others observed Torah.
Obviously the sheva mitzvos b'nei Noach they observed but how did
they know about the chukim and korbonos, as well as tzitzis, mezuzah,
tefillin, etc. etc. etc.?



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Message: 13
From: cantorwolb...@cox.net
Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 14:39:51 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] What's special about shevet Shimon?


In Bamidbar, we get the count of all the tribes. The language for all 12 is 
identical: "tolodosam, l'mishpchosam, l'vays avosam b'mispar..." except for 
Shimon: " "tolodosam, l'mishpchosam, l'vays avosam PECUDAYV b'mispar..." (1:22) 
What's special about Shimon? 

The tribe of Shimon was the only tribe according to Rashi that did not receive a curse.
Hence, Pecudav (ITS numbers) did not receive a curse.  [That was what was special
about Shimon].




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Message: 14
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 14:57:46 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] torture and halacha


RSZN sent us a collection of links discussing RJDBleich's article
in Tradition 39:4 (2006) "Survey of Recent Halachic Literature:
Torture and the Ticking Bomb", available to subscribers at
<http://www.traditiononline.org/news/article.cfm?id=100881>.

A summary of the article, which it must be stressed is halakhah velo lemaaseh
is at http://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/4218

Quoting "Shalom":
        If we are positive (?) that this person is a rodef, i.e. actively
        trying to kill innocent people, then we can use any force needed
        to stop him, including lethal force.

        Is torture worse than lethal force? This is debated by the
        Rishonim, but it appears the majority opinion is that if killing
        is allowed, torture is too.
        
        Suppose this fellow has knowledge of the ticking-bomb plot, but
        wasn't involved in setting the bomb (but if he disclosed his
        information we could stop the bomb); that's more complicated,
        but I think Rabbi Bleich concludes he's also considered a rodef.

        How sure do we have to be that he's a rodef? That's very
        unclear ...

        There are similar arguments involving kofin oso ad sheyomer
        rotzeh ani. It's complicated.

        What if this person is entirely innocent, but it's necessary?
        E.g. evil terrorist won't talk no matter what we do to him, but
        if we torture his family he'll talk. You can't call the family
        a rodef.

        When a significant portion of the world population is at risk,
        there can be a concept of emergency dispensations -- hora'at
        sha'ah -- that might allow more than otherwise would be. Rabbi
        Bleich said this might be analogous to a court-mandated "torture
        warrant" suggested by Dershowitz.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 47th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Malchus: What is glorious about
Fax: (270) 514-1507               unity-how does it draw out one's soul?


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