Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 11

Mon, 02 Apr 2012

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 11:35:11 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Soft Matza


On 1/04/2012 1:58 PM, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> I think RZS may have misunderstood me. I agree that the matzos used to
> contain many more kezaysim than nowadays. My only point was that the
> reason for changing to thin matzos was not so that they'd stay edible
> longer, but to help insure -- to an even greater degree than in past
> generations -- that the matzos would be free of chometz.

I understood you perfectly well, which is why I specified that they
remained thick *after* that change.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon



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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 12:12:48 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Commentary magazine article by Yoram Hazony, "A


On Mon, Apr 02, 2012 at 11:12:34AM -0400, Joseph I. Lauer wrote:
>    The April issue of Commentary magazine has an article by Yoram Hazony  
> entitled "A Bombshell from the Rav", a review of "The Emergence of 
> Ethical Man" (2005), edited by Michael Berger based upon ten handwritten 
> notebooks of Rav Soloveitchik zt"l.

RGS wrote a response at
<http://torahmusings.com/2012/03/defusing-the-ravs-bomb>.
And the original author chimes in on the comment chain
http://torahmusings.com/2012/03/defusing-the-ravs-bomb/comment-
page-1/#comments

Also of note IMHO are R' Lawrence Kaplan's comments on that blog entry.

The whole discussion would only be viewed as an absurdity by anyone
who actually attended RYBS's shiur.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When a king dies, his power ends,
mi...@aishdas.org        but when a prophet dies, his influence is just
http://www.aishdas.org   beginning.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                    - Soren Kierkegaard



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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 12:35:32 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Eliyahu beHar haCarmel


I assume my experience is normal, that Eliyahu beHar haKarmel is the
textbook case of a navi overriding the normal din with a hora'as sha'ah.

But after today's Y-mi Yomi, I'm not sure it really qualifies. It says
in Megillah at the end of 1:11, vilna 16b: "Amar R' Yosi ben Chaninah:
Ein [habamah] niteres ela benavi." I'm I wrong, or is RYBC saying that
the permissability of a navi making a bamah is mutar in principle,
even if only one navi invoked it?

The pasuq quoted (Deverim 12:13-14) is the usual one for issur bamah,
but notice the wording, "bekhol maqom asher tir'eh. Ki im el hamaqom
asher yivchar Hashem...." Is this being brought as a source for "ein
habamah niteres", a point discusses all through 1:11, or is it that
"asher tir'eh" doesn't apply to a location pointed out to by a navi?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             We are great, and our foibles are great,
mi...@aishdas.org        and therefore our troubles are great --
http://www.aishdas.org   but our consolations will also be great.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabbi AY Kook



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Message: 4
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 11:41:20 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] hilchot pesach


On 1/04/2012 10:52 AM, Eli Turkel wrote:
>>This could be got around very simply, by having the goy stipulate that he
>> gives permission for people to help themselves to his chametz after Pesach.

> In fact this is part of the standard contract. The only problem is that one
> should pay for the whiskey used. This is easy if one personally sold whiskey,
> harder in a mass sale. Thus, the problem is more a monetary problem but that
> is still not a heter.

I don't see the problem even in a mass sale. The goy is going to sell it
all back to us after Shabbat anyway, and we are going to pay for it then.
So if he gives permission, either explicitly or even implicitly, why
should we not take it early? We've discussed eating something while in
the queue at the supermarket, and whether the owner is or is not makpid,
or indeed is happy for people to do it because it guarantees a sale.
But I don't think there can possibly be any question that where the
owner has explicitly given permission then it is permitted! So what's the
difference here? Let him give permission, and all problems are solved.
When we pay for it after Shabbat, we will include in the repurchase all
that we took over the course of shabbat.


On 2/04/2012 6:55 AM, Danny Schoemann wrote:
>> This could be got around very simply, by having the goy stipulate that he
>> gives permission for people to help themselves to his chametz after Pesach.

> R' Dovid A. Morgenstern shlita [...]  mentioned that there would be a
> problem with Muktza, since Bein haShmoshos the Chametz is forbidden.

I don't see the problem. Even on Pesach itself, if the goy comes to
collect his property you are allowed to pick it up and give it to him.
And of course the goy himself can pick it up and do whatever he likes
with it. So how was it muktzeh?

> He also mentioned the issue of stealing from the Goy - since (the sales
> he is aware of) do not have any stipulations attached; he said they were
> complicated enough without adding loopholes.

As I've said before, I don't think this is a problem at all, just as I
don't think there's a problem with eating in the queue at the supermarket,
since there is a very strong umdena that the owner doesn't mind. But I
also don't see the problem with adding an explicit stipulation to the
contract, which would surely resolve any safek.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name



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Message: 5
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 13:10:41 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Eliyahu beHar haCarmel


On 2/04/2012 12:35 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> I assume my experience is normal, that Eliyahu beHar haKarmel is the
> textbook case of a navi overriding the normal din with a hora'as sha'ah.
>
> But after today's Y-mi Yomi, I'm not sure it really qualifies. It says
> in Megillah at the end of 1:11, vilna 16b: "Amar R' Yosi ben Chaninah:
> Ein [habamah] niteres ela benavi." I'm I wrong, or is RYBC saying that
> the permissability of a navi making a bamah is mutar in principle,
> even if only one navi invoked it?

"Niters benavi" *is* "hora'as sha'ah".  That's what "hora'as shaah"
*means*.



-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon



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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 13:24:50 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Eliyahu beHar haCarmel


On Mon, Apr 02, 2012 at 01:10:41PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> Ein [habamah] niteres ela benavi." I'm I wrong, or is RYBC saying that
>> the permissability of a navi making a bamah is mutar in principle,
>> even if only one navi invoked it?

> "Niters benavi" *is* "hora'as sha'ah".  That's what "hora'as shaah"
> *means*.

The pasuq isn't about pesaqim in general nor about hora'ah. The pasuq in
Devarim is a statement speicifically about bamos. And its heter appears
to be based on the fact that Eliyahu was told to build a bamah on Har
HaKarmel, it wasn't a place he picked himself, and thus not within the
terms of the issur.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha



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Message: 7
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 16:15:26 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Sfardi Psaq On Matza And Qvi`ath S`udah


R' Zev Sero wrote:

> ... but RMF is citing that end lechumra, not lekula.  Because there
> are shitos that even a small amount might count as kevias seudah,
> one should be careful not to eat that amount without washing *on
> real bread*.  But RMF would surely not recommend that someone rely
> on such a small amount to wash and say hamotzi and bench, let alone
> to use it for lechem mishneh!

Rav Shimon Eider would disagree with you.

In Igros Moshe 1:155, pg 274, par. "v'lachen", he explicitly allows using
Matza Ashira on Shabbos Erev Pesach. I concede that he does not specify how
much Matza Ashira must be eaten for this purpose.

However, Rav Shimon Eider, page 385, writing about the use of Egg Matza on
Shabbos Erev Pesach, cites the very same Igros Moshe that I did (namely
3:32), and writes: "How much egg matzah must one eat to be considered kovea
seudah? If he eats it with other food, the same amount of egg matzah as one
would eat of other matzah or bread, is considered as kovea seudah."

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
57 Year Old Looks 27
Local Woman Reveals Wrinkle Secret That Has Doctors Angry.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4f79d0dddebf92c467b5st02vuc



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Message: 8
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 20:01:07 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] hilchot Pesach


<< R' Dovid A. Morgenstern shlita mentioned this at his 2nd Shabbos-Hagodol
Drosho. (I wasn't at the first, so I don't know if he gave the same one
twice; 2 blocks and 80 minutes apart.)

He mentioned that there would be a problem with Muktza, since Bein
haShmoshos the Chametz is forbidden.

He also mentioned the issue of stealing from the Goy - since (the sales he
is aware of) do not have any stipulations attached; he said they were
complicated enough without adding loopholes. >>

3 rabbis at the yom iyun I attended (including senior RY) strongly denied
there is any problem of mukzah. In EY we are talking about going from
YomTov to Shabbat and the halacha of Bein Hashmashot doesnt apply.
They did agree that one would need to pay the goy for the whiskey used on
shabbat (of course kiniyot are not sold)

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Message: 9
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 19:46:28 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] costa concordia


6. Many sforim dealt with war and soldiers' duty to each other at risk
  of their own life, and doctrine may have changed over the years.  >>

Laws of war are different from civilian life. One cant refuse to be a
soldier on the grounds of pikuach nefesh

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Message: 10
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 20:43:50 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] [Off line - call me at home] Re: hilchot Pesach


<< R' Dovid A. Morgenstern shlita mentioned this at his 2nd Shabbos-Hagodol
Drosho. (I wasn't at the first, so I don't know if he gave the same one
twice; 2 blocks and 80 minutes apart.)

He mentioned that there would be a problem with Muktza, since Bein
haShmoshos the Chametz is forbidden.

He also mentioned the issue of stealing from the Goy - since (the sales he
is aware of) do not have any stipulations attached; he said they were
complicated enough without adding loopholes. >>

I did some more research. Shmirat Shabbat Kehilchato explicitly allows
eating chametz on the shabbat immediately following Pesach based on a Rav
Akiva Eger. He has an extensive footnote asking why it is different from
ornaments after Succot. Among other answers he brings one from CI. Hence,
this seems to be universally held that "Migo De-ikzai" doesnt hold from
yomtov to shabbat. All this only if he gets a present from a Goy.


Eli Turkel
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Message: 11
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 19:57:13 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] kitnoyot


<<The policy of the Israeli rabbinate and other kashrus organizations is to
label any product containing even small amount of kitniyos derivatives as
"only for those who eat kitniyos."  In recent years, a number of rabbanim
have "made headlines" by stating that the prohibition of being mevatel an
issur lechatchila does not apply to kitniyos, so the many products where
less than half of the mixture is from kitniyos (which are batel berov) may
be eaten by Ashkenazim, despite the labeling. >>

Tzohar made a stink this year about Lecithin and as a consequence many
companies explicitly list that the product contains lecithin rather than  "only
for those who eat kitniyos."

<< It is clear that practically speaking, this
has been the practice of the last few generations, since we have come to
rely on kashrus agencies, and their policy is not to "certify for
Ashkenazim" anything with even a trace amount of kitniyos.  The kashrus
agencies are presumably just following the same approach to bitul that they
take with bitul of "real" issurim, which was discussed at length in this
forum a few months ago. >>

In fact many mehadrin hechsherim wont certify a product for Pesach if any
line in the entire factory is used for kitniyot. ie the supervision of
kitniyot has become much more machmir than the standards for normal kashrut
issues.

OTOH as has been noted more groups are now downplaying things like Canola
oil. As remarked according to R. Elchanan Spector there is no problem. The
Marcheshet sdaid that kiniyot oils are no problem and Ramah means only oils
made on Pesach. According to RMF new products are not included.
Hence, there are 3 reasons to be mekil on something that is only a custom.
As RMF points out there never was a formal gezerah against eating kitniyot
as shown by the fact that people like R. Yechiel of Paris rejected the
custom and Chacham Tzvi was also against it.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Message: 12
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 20:44:09 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Taaroves kitniyos


Over the past few years the local rabbis have been paskening more and 
more that one can indeed read the labels and eat taarovet kitniyot.

Ben

On 4/2/2012 11:34 AM, David Cohen wrote:
>
> When I asked about this, I was told that "the minhag is not to eat 
> taaroves kitniyos," except when there's some other extenuating 
> circumstance.  (I've already received my pesak, so I'm posting here 
> for the purpose of theoretical discussion only.)  It is clear that 
> practically speaking, this has been the practice of the last few 
> generations, since we have come to rely on kashrus agencies, and their 
> policy is not to "certify for Ashkenazim" anything with even a trace 
> amount of kitniyos.




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Message: 13
From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 09:42:34 -0700
Subject:
[Avodah] vihi noam last week


for nusach sfard, the shul i was at  , pulled  2  different  versions of 
rabbi artscroll .  one  edition said  no   vihi noam  if  erev  pesach is 
friday;  the other  said   yes.
i guess all nusach ashkenaz   doesnt count  14  nissan as a yom tov, and 
some  sfard does....


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Message: 14
From: Ari Kahn <adk1...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 21:52:22 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] chametz ank Kitniot on Isru Chag -shabbat


Regarding Chametz and Kitniot in Israel on Shabbat Isru Chag ? Rav Ovadia
is lenient regading chametz, claims there is no problem of stealing and the
contract allows such use, he further cites the Ohr Sameach who states there
is no muktza by a non-jew, see Yechave Daat 2:64

Rav Shlmo Zalmen Auerbach allows Kitniot, and states there is no issue of
muktzah see Minchat Shlomo Tanina  bet-gimmel:17

I spoke about this on Shabbat (twice!) and will share the sources upon
request.



Ari Kahn
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Message: 15
From: Saul Guberman <saulguber...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 15:03:22 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] vihi noam last week


On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 12:42, <Saul.Z.New...@kp.org> wrote:

>
> for nusach sfard, the shul i was at  , pulled  2  different  versions of
>  rabbi artscroll .  one  edition said  no   vihi noam  if  erev  pesach is
>  friday;  the other  said   yes.
> i guess all nusach ashkenaz   doesnt count  14  nissan as a yom tov, and
>  some  sfard does....
>

The Ezras Torah Luach, which is as close to a minhag America as there is,
says to not say it.

Saul
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Message: 16
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 15:37:36 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] vihi noam last week


On 2/04/2012 12:42 PM, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
>
> for nusach sfard, the shul i was at , pulled 2 different versions of
> rabbi artscroll . one edition said no vihi noam if erev pesach is
> friday; the other said yes.
> i guess all nusach ashkenaz doesnt count 14 nissan as a yom tov, and some sfard

See http://3x0.aq.sl.pt

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon



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Message: 17
From: Harry Maryles <hmary...@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 12:50:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Chief Rabbi Metzger: Women can lead Seder


On Mon, 4/2/12, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
> From http://tinyurl.com/6mbs9vv

>> Ashkenazi chief rabbi delivers Great Shabbat sermon in Jerusalem,
>> explaining that Jewish law permits women to lead the Passover Seder in
>> the event that their husbands are not available + Wives and daughters
>> must be allowed to take part in the reading of the Haggadah even if the
>> husband is at home.

I don't understand the Chidush. Even though it is a Mitzvas Aseh
SheHaZ'man Gramma -- Sippur Yitzias Mitzraim is a Chiuv D'Oraisa for women
too Al Pi the Chinuch (Mitzvah 21). Why shouldn't they read the Haggadah?

HM 


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