Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 254

Mon, 26 Dec 2011

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "Chana Luntz" <Ch...@kolsassoon.org.uk>
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 17:27:49 -0000
[Avodah] Forms of Bitul

R Micha Berger wrote:
>> Becuase if so, then the stuff the centrifuge brought to the
>> top isn't actually "milk", from a halachic perspective.

And inter alia I replied:
> That is what I would suspect.  Ie if initially you are able to
> recognise it, then this is prior to the bitul happening.  Once bitul
> has happened, I believe the language used by the various rishonim is
> that it is "keino".  I don't know that they contemplate somebody being
> able to centrifuge the mixture to thereby re-separate what has
> previously been mixed and undetectable by our taste test.  

Further though to my earlier post because otherwise it might be misleading
- there is of course the concept of hozer v'niur, which kind of does
what you are looking for. Ie if a drop of milk falls into the meat stew,
and is batel, but then subsequently more milk falls in, the milk that
fell in first is added to the shiur of the milk that falls in next,
and at the point that all the milk that has fallen into the meat stew
adds up to more than sixty of the meat stew, the mixture becomes assur.
This is despite the very last drop that fell in being much less than
sixty. But at that point, the taste of the mixture, which has been
edging towards milky, finally hits it - ie your theoretical non Jew at
that point could detect the milky taste in the stew. That is not really
the same as having the same amount of milk which was determined to be
batel become not batel by modern chemical methods or centrifuge.

There is also additionally the Rema in Yoreh Deah siman 98 si'if 4 who
not only requires the removal of the milk that is obvious on the face
of the meat stew, but the addition of cold water, so as to cause the
milk that has fallen into the meat to rise to the top and enable it to
be identified and removed. Is this the equivalent of using centrifuge or
modern scientific methods to enable a separation? Now that we have these
modern methods, are we mechuyav to invoke them (even sending the mixture
to the lab if necessary) rather than rely on bitul? My inclination is no,
as I indicated above, and that this requirement of the Rema is really
just a chumra (as seems to be the language of at least of the meforshim),
and not mikar hadin (given that the consensus is that we cannot rely on
this l'kula, ie if there is less than sixty), and that we are certainly
not expected to take this further than that and effectively undermine the
whole concept of such bitul. Because surely with our scientific advances,
we would end up with a situation where every case of min shebaino mino
is ultimately separatable in the lab (probably at huge cost, but that
isn't the point) and therefore arguably the din of bitul b'shishim for
min shebaino mino no longer exists. It seems to me, however, that you
have to draw a line between what is reasonably possible for your average
Jew throughout the ages and what may now be possible in the lab given
our scientific advances.


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Message: 2
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 22:16:28 GMT
Re: [Avodah] hanuka parties

R' Saul Newman asked:

> the one situation not listed is the very common issue of the
> hanuka party-----  how one safely lights ones' candles when going
> to the [typiclaly] early hanuka  party......  do they stay home
> for 30 min then blow them out?    do they light after the party?

I can't imagine anything wrong with blowing out the candles if they've
burned 30 minutes past tzeis, especially if one made a tenai when lighting
to do so. But that solution doesn't work if one must leave for the party
before that time. Leaving the candles unattended is another option that
some might choose, but option isn't even available if one must leave home
before plag hamincha.

The solution I've heard is to set an alarm clock on one's wristwatch, cell
phone, or similar device. This will act as a classical Shomer which will
remind a person to do a mitzvah, thus allowing that person even to eat,
knowing that he will not forget to do that mitzvah.

I saw one article about Hilchos Chanuka which suggested the above, and gave three sources for it:

1) Rabbi Eider, p. 22, footnote 37. (There's nothing like that in my 1980
edition, but that note *is* in the section titled "Activities prohibited
once the time for lighting arrives", so I presume that it appears in more
recent editions.)

2) Rav Ovadiah Yosef, Chazon Ovadiah, Chanukah, p. 68.

3) Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, Halichot Shlomo, Mo'adei HaShanah page 299.
Although not specifically relating to Hilchos Chanuka, in Halichot Shlomo,
Tefillah page 16, he rules that an alarm clock has a status similar to a
human reminder.

Akiva Miller

LifeLock?? Official Site
Don&#39;t Be a Victim of Credit Fraud. Enroll w/ LifeLock & Get Protected.

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Message: 3
From: Zvi Lampel <zvilam...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 21:19:10 -0500
Re: [Avodah] evolution - new creatures coming into existence,

ZL: ... Adam's expulsion from Gan Eden was during the 6th day,....

  ...there is a medrashic line which has Adam eating the esrog of the
eitz hadaas on the future date of Sukkos. Then, as the moon started
shrinking, Adam thought that his expulsion was being followed up by a
slow disentegration of the universe..... Eruvin 18b and AZ 8a also imply
a much later date.

ZL: "Also"? I don't see how the above contradicts the Rambam's 
observation that all the Chachamim agree to the shitta that Adam's 
expulsion took place during the sixth day.

They have Adam undertaking 47 days of teshuvah until
the winter solstice and days started getting longer. That would put the
cheit some time in mid-Marcheshvan or so! (Which might even be 7.5 mo 
after Adam's creation, if beNisan nivra
ha'olam.) This notion that everything happened on day 6 is subject to a 
and R Yochanan ben Chanina's (Sanhedrin 38b) isn't the only shitah.

ZL: I don't see anything about 47 days in either of those two sources. 
Eruvin 18b speaks of Adam doing teshuva for 130 years; AZ 8a has Adam 
fearing that his sin caused the world to start coming to an end upon 
seeing the days shortening so much, and thereupon fasting for 8 days.

And this is followed by a tannu rabbanan that *the day* that Adam 
HaRishon was created, he saw for the first time the sun setting, and 
feared the world was reverting back to darkness and ultimately tohu 
va'vohu, because of the sin he had committed. This clearly implies the 
sin was committed before sunset of the sixth day.

It seems pretty clear why the Rambam says this was agreed upon by all 
the Chachamim.

Zvi Lampel

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Message: 4
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 06:09:46 -0500
[Avodah] ?Torah Study on Christmas Eve? free Torah in Motion

 From http://bit.ly/sGwr1V

In the spirit of inyana de-yoma, <http://www.torahinmotion.org/>Torah 
in Motion is offering, free of charge, Dr. Marc B. Shapiro's lecture 
"Torah Study on Christmas Eve," delivered on Christmas Eve, 2009. You 
can get it 

We invite all those who download the lecture to visit Torah in 
Motion's website <http://www.torahinmotion.org/><
a href='http://www.torahinmotion.org'>www.torahinmotion.org 
where over a thousand other lectures are available for download 
(including lectures by Dan Rabinowitz, Eleizer Brodt, and Marc 
Shapiro's bundle of 103 lectures on great rabbinic figures, available 

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Message: 5
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 12:25:01 -0500
[Avodah] The Halachos and Kashrus of Chocolate

There is a special issue of Halachically Speaking on The Halachos and 
Kashrus of Chocolate at

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Message: 6
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 02:02:16 GMT
[Avodah] Star-K bitul policy

I was just now reading about medicines on the Star-K website, and I discovered that they too make a distinction between "certified" and "approved".

At http://www.star-k.org/c
ons-appr-medicine.htm you can find list of the medications that the
Star-K certifies and approves, but that is not really relevant to this
discussion. Much more relevant is http://www.star-k.org/medicine
exp.htm which provides a short explanation of where they allow bitul in
the approved products.

Their decision-making on these products is legitimately influenced by the
fact that these are medicines and not foods, and so the rules they use here
are not directly applicable to regular foods. But I am posting this anyway,
so that those who are familiar with the relevant halachos can see how they
are applied, at least in this area. For example, they will consider
flavorings as batel for medicines, even though they would not be that
lenient on regular food. But on the other hand, they will not accept
emulsifiers or carmine as batel, even for medicines. Please see that page
for more examples.

Akiva Miller

53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried

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Message: 7
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 09:51:10 -0500
[Avodah] Parshas Mikeitz: Rav Shamshon Rephael Hirsch - King

 From http://bit.ly/tBR3GH

Yosef was the favorite son of Yaakov, who had spent 20 years mourning 
Yosef's disappearance. Could Yosef HaTzaddik not have figured out a 
way to get a message to his dear father Yaakov that he was alive and 
well? Furthermore when the Shevatim stood before Yosef in Mitzrayim, 
should he not have jumped on the opportunity to put the misery and 
mystery behind all of them already?

Some say that Yosef needed to see his dreams played out, as they were 
nevuah. However Rav Shamshon Rephael Hirsch dismisses that notion as 
that is Hashem's job and Yosef surely understood that his job was to 
do the right thing and leave the Nevuah to Hashem while was occupied 
mending the torn hearts.

Rav Hirsch answers that Yosef wanted to end the split in the family 
caused by the Shevatim's misinterpretation of his ambitions. The 
Shevatim were afraid of Yosef's ambitions from the day he told them 
of his dreams. However Yosef's intention was never to rule over them, 
only to play his decreed role in Am Yisroel according to the Ratzon 
Hashem with complete modesty, love, and respect for his brothers.

Had Yosef revealed himself as the King of Mitzrayim before the 
Shevatim felt remorse and before he proved his modesty and his 
intentions not to harm them, he would have set the clock back twenty 
years with nothing changed, other than he proving he was indeed 
ambitious and superior just as the brothers feared. This would have 
given Yaakov no comfort even with the additional piece of information 
that Yosef was alive.

Only through the slow painful process conducted by Yosef, with 
incredible wisdom and modesty, was he able to achieve the right 
atmosphere to bring his brothers close to him and reunite the family 
that was meant to build Klal Yisroel as one nation united.

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Message: 8
From: Allan Engel <allan.en...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 02:51:32 +0000
[Avodah] V'al HaPurkan

Am I right to assume (from the consonant cluster and also Yekum
Purkan) that the word 'Purkan' is Aramaic?

If so, what is it doing (twice) in the otherwise entirely Hebrew Al Hanissim?

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Message: 9
From: Harvey Benton <harvw...@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 15:42:32 -0800 (PST)
Re: [Avodah] timeline??

my question is, what was there to learn from the 

tagim, when the original text (most believe) was
not the modern hebrew that we use ??


 From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
To: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net> 
Cc: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>; Harvey Benton <harvw...@yahoo.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Avodah] timeline??
On 20/12/2011 5:28 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> On 12/20/2011 3:46 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
>> On 20/12/2011 3:56 PM, Harvey Benton wrote:
>>> *didn't ezra hasofer change the letters?? (and there fore the tagim
>>> *were then added??) how then could R. Akiva learn the halachot*
>>> *from the tagim (since he came earlier????) or was this a different*
>>> *Akiva??*
>> Rabbi Akiva was at least 400 years *after* Ezra!
> That took me aback at first also, but it's just poor use of antecedents. The parenthetical "he" was Ezra.

No it wasn't.? If Ezra introduced the tagim then what's the problem
with R Akiva using them 400 years later?? The problem only arises if
it's the other way around.

Zev Sero? ? ? ? "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name? ? economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
??? ???  are expanding through human ingenuity."
??? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - Julian Simon
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Message: 10
From: Harvey Benton <harvw...@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 17:17:45 -0800 (PST)
[Avodah] list of takanos? berachos??

does anyonye have a complete listof all takannos, gezeiros, and berachos
that were ever instituted, and by whom and why??
eg, havdalah, etc, 

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Message: 11
From: "Joel C. Salomon" <joelcsalo...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 22:22:21 -0500
Re: [Avodah] timeline??

On 12/26/2011 06:42 PM, Harvey Benton wrote:
> my question is, what was there to learn from the
> tagim, when the original text (most believe) was
> not the modern hebrew that we use ??

I recall reading a theory (I thought it was on A/A, but searching
aishdas.org does not turn it up) that the *original* original script,
the one the Avos would have used, would be the Aramaic one (see
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_alphabet>) -- Avraham was from
Aram, after all --; and that the Phoenician "ktav ivri" was adopted
after the conquest of Eretz Yisrael.

That would explain where the 5 final letter forms come from, and how
they were "lost, and Ezra reestablished them".

(Trouble is, the theory [as I remember it] has some holes, e.g.,
archeological evidence of Phoenician turning into Aramaic.  If anyone
else remembers seeing this, and where, maybe the fellow who wrote this
originally has some answers.)


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Message: 12
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 06:08:20 +0200
[Avodah] spitting / sinat chinam

A member of DL community who has been attacked by these folks, if he 
does hate them, is he guilty of sinat chinam?


On 12/25/2011 10:14 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
The sign removal followed a report aired by Channel 2 on Friday night 
showing an eight-year old modern orthodox girl afraid to walk 300 meters 
to school because of harassment from some haredim because of her attire. 
The reporter also interviewed a haredi man saying it was permissible to 
spit at even a school age girl if she was not dressed "properly."

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Message: 13
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 23:16:39 -0500
Re: [Avodah] spitting / sinat chinam

On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 06:08:20AM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
> A member of DL community who has been attacked by these folks, if he  
> does hate them, is he guilty of sinat chinam?

Our discussion of whether sin'as chinam means the hatred is basisless
or whether it means pointless seems relevant. It is only in the latter
case that your question begins, and then it hinges on the metzi'us --
what purpose does it serve?

Does it prevent me from emulating their tactics? I think that
historically, hatred of an opponent justifies more emulation of their
wronging you, not less.

Can one camp change the other?

Tir'u baTov!

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Message: 14
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 23:37:49 -0500
Re: [Avodah] V'al HaPurkan

On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 02:51:32AM +0000, Allan Engel wrote:
: Am I right to assume (from the consonant cluster and also Yekum
: Purkan) that the word 'Purkan' is Aramaic?

The shoresh is found in Hebrew too. E.g. Bereishis 27:40, "ufaraqra ulo
mei'al tzavarekha". Or Shemos 32:2 "Vayomer eilehem Aharon: pirqu nizmei
hazahav...." (also pesuqim 3 and 24), and I'm sure your concordance
shows more occurances of the shoresh.

The binyan might be the same as "shulchan", I don't know. But the
consonant clustering is shared.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             "Someday I will do it." - is self-deceptive. 
mi...@aishdas.org        "I want to do it." - is weak. 
http://www.aishdas.org   "I am doing it." - that is the right way.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Reb Menachem Mendel of Kotzk

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Message: 15
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 00:32:55 -0500
Re: [Avodah] evolution - new creatures coming into existence,

On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 09:19:10PM -0500, Zvi Lampel wrote:
> And this is followed by a tannu rabbanan that *the day* that Adam  
> HaRishon was created, he saw for the first time the sun setting, and  
> feared the world was reverting back to darkness and ultimately tohu  
> va'vohu, because of the sin he had committed. This clearly implies the  
> sin was committed before sunset of the sixth day.

Actually, that's only to answer what one would say if the world were
created in Nisan. For Tishrei, Adam's teshuvah begins before the

I conflated the gemara with the last shitah in Pirqei deR' Eliezer
pereq 20, which talks about Adam fasting for 7 weeks. But both
opinions make my point.

> It seems pretty clear why the Rambam says this was agreed upon by all  
> the Chachamim.

I think he is speaking only of the last clause -- that Adam was placed in
the gan. Since only that fits "All our Sages agree that this took place
on the sixth day, and that nothing new was created after the close of
the six days."

But then, he tells you not to worry about the contradictions in
    The account of the six days of creation contains, in reference to
    the creation of man, the statement: "Male and female created he them"
    (1:27), and concludes with the words: "Thus the heavens and the earth
    were finished, and all the host of them" (2:1), and yet the portion
    which follows describes the creation of Eve from Adam, the tree of
    life, and the tree of knowledge, the history of the serpent and the
    events connected therewith, and all this as having taken place after
    Adam had been placed in the Garden of Eden. All our Sages agree that
    this took place on the sixth day, and that nothing new was created
    after the close of the six days. None of the things mentioned above
    is therefore impossible, because the laws of Nature were then not
    yet permanently fixed.

"None of the things mentioned above", neither the number of things that
occured on yom 6 nor their creation of male and female being at once and
also female from male, that the world was both complete and also before
the story of the nachash, because nature wasn't yet fixed. This is the
same pereq where the Rambam tells you that time can't exist without the
galgal hamaqif or the sun -- which we know was created on yom 4. And
how everything was created in the two "es"-es of Bereishis 1:1 ("ki
shamayim va'aretz nivre'u yachad") and on their respective days.
    Kevar hodiakha ki yesod kol haTorah
    sheH' himtzi es ha'olam min ha'ayin
    *shelo bereishis zemaneihem*
    ela hazeman nivra,
    mipenei shehu nispach letenu'as hagalgal, vehagalgal nivra.

Creation was outside of time. And thus yom isn't a period of time --
neither a 24 hour day nor an era, but something altogether lemaalah
min hazeman -- as the supercommentary rishonim (and/or early acharonim)
consistently interpret him.

Time itself wasn't etched in stone yet, so of course all those things
can happen, and in what seems like conflicting temporal sequence.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Mussar is like oil put in water,
mi...@aishdas.org        eventually it will rise to the top.
http://www.aishdas.org                    - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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