Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 208

Sun, 16 Oct 2011

• 1. Amalek (was rules) (Joseph C. Kaplan)
• 2. Subject: Re: rules (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 3. Confusing the Satan (Was re: Brisker Chumeros and Shammuti Chumeros) (Joel C. Salomon)
• 4. Re: Why we eat on erev YK? (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 5. more on schach (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 6. mitztaer (David Riceman)
• 7. Re: Why we eat on erev YK? (Zev Sero)
• 8. Rav Elyashiv - Where To Light The Candles For Succos? (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Re: Rav Elyashiv - Where To Light The Candles For Succos? (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Rav Elyashiv - Where To Light The Candles For Succos? (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Rav Elyashiv - Where To Light The Candles For Succos? (Lisa Liel)
• 12. Re: mitztaer (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Rav Elyashiv - Where To Light The Candles For Succos? (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: Rav Yisroel Salanter - Teshuva On The Same Aveiros, Year, After Year, After Year.... (Poppers, Michael)
• 15. More Tzaar (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 16. Picnics, restaurants, shops, and desks (Zev Sero)
• 17. Kevius seudah on meat, cheese, potatoes, etc. (Zev Sero)

"Amalek.  It's an interesting question.  Is the mitzvah of eradicating 
Amalek a mitzvah on each Jew, or on all Jews as a nation?  And is the 
mitzvah to kill any individual Amalekite or only to wipe them out en masse?"

RYBS discusses that in the last footnote (#25) in Kol Dodi Dofek.  He
writes, in the name of his father, that there are 2 halachot regarding
Amalek.  The first is based on Dvarim, and is a commandment on each
individual Jew to wipe out individual Amalekites.  The second mitzvah is
found in Shemot, and is a commandment to the People of Israel to wage war
against the  community of Amalek.  The first mitzvah applies only, the Rav
emphasizes, to genealogical descendants of Amalek who, since Sancheriv
mixed up the nations, are unknown.  The second mitzvah applies to any
nation that seeks to destroy the Jewish People.

Joseph Kaplan

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with the imminent  release of   1000  or more  enemy  'security risks' , 
this  becomes  a more relevant  question--  when  convicted murderers will 
doubtless be released to their former homes,  how much risk   can  be 
halachically entertained for pidyon shevuyim. in the old days the pidyon 
was money, not  murderers.....


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On 10/11/2011 03:04 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> To ask the question often asked of the skipped day of shofar blowing: Is
> the satan that dim that he'd not only fall for it once, but even annually?
> 
> The satan is the YhR (and mal'akh hamaves). Confusing the satan requires
> confounding something internal to the person the satan would otherwise
> sway.

I heard a Chasidishe vort some time ago to the effect that the satan is
not allowed to learn this.  So, (continues the vort) if the YhR is
tempting you, reviewing this sugya can help.

--Chesky

R' Liron Kopinsky asked:

> But don't you get that every week with the shabbat seudot or
> with every other chiyuv achila?

But there isn't any other chiyuv achila.
Erev Yom Kippur is the only time we have a chiyuv achila.

I will now explain, as someone once explained it to me:

We have a chiyuv of matza, and we accomplish it by eating.
We have a chiyuv of oneg Shabbos, and we accomplish it by eating.
We have a chiyuv of sukkah, and we accomplish it by eating.
We have a chiyuv of Simchas Yom Tov, and we accomplish it by eating.

But on Erev Yom Kippur, the chiyuv is simply to *eat*. It is not a means to
some other end. It is the end itself. Just eat. That's the mitzvah on Erev
Yom Kippur.

____________________________________________________________
57-Year-Old Mom Looks 25
Mom Reveals $5 Wrinkle Trick That Has Angered Doctors!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4e952330d601a9c94dest06vuc

http://www.star-k.org/cons-schachmats_sourcehandout.pdf 
http://www.star-k.org/cons-seasonal-schach.htm 


back
Guide to Star-K Certified Schach

The Star-K currently certifies schach made from bamboo slats held together 
with monofilament type cord for use during Sukkos. The following is an 
explanation of the psak of Rabbi Moshe Heinemann regarding this item:

In Hilchos Sukkah (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 629:1) it is written that 
schach can not consist of something that is ?mekabel tumah? (something 
that has the ability to become ritually impure). It is for this reason 
that bamboo carpet mats cannot be used for schach as they are mekabel 
tumah. All Star-K certified schach is not made to sit or walk on and is 
therefore not mekabel tumah.

In addition, l?chatchila, kosher schach may not be supported by anything 
which is mekabel tumah (see Rama O.C. 629:7). According to the opinion of 
Rashi (as brought in Shaar Hatziyun 629:20) spun or woven threads (e.g. 
string, yarn) are mekabel tumah. Rav Moshe Feinstein states (Igros Moshe, 
O.C. 1:177) based on a Mishna, if something which is mekabel tumah is used 
to hold wooden slats together, the slats themselves are also mekabel tumah
and are no longer kosher for schach use. Therefore, Rav Moshe Feinstein 
explains that wooden venetian blinds held together with cloth tape or 
string are not kosher for schach. It follows that according to Rashi 
bamboo slats held together by multi-filament cord (i.e. it is braided or 
twisted) are also not kosher for schach (even if they are not made to sit 
or walk on).

However, monofilament (commonly used for fishing line) is not woven or 
spun material. Therefore, it is not mekabel tumah and may be used to hold 
bamboo slats together. All Star-K certified bamboo schach is held together 
with monofilament cord.


When placing the schach mat on the Sukkah - The following guidelines 
should be followed:

1.      The bamboo slats should be resting perpendicular to the beams and 
walls upon which they are set.

The reason is as follows: If the slats are resting parallel to the walls 
and beams upon which they are set, the middle slats will be suspended only 
by the monofilament. One may not suspend schach with non-schach material. 
Although monofilament is notmekabel tumah and will not invalidate kosher 
schach, it cannot serve as schach and cannot support the schach (see B?aer 
Haytav 629:8).

2.      If a normal prevailing wind (ruach metzuya) can blow the schach
 off the sukkah, one may not tie the schach down to hold it in place. The 
reason is that an item which is not kosher for schach (e.g. string) may 
not be used to hold down kosher schach. Instead, one must place a wooden 
beam (e.g. 2x4) on top of the schach which is resting on the walls thereby 
sandwiching the schach between the beam and the top of the walls. This 
beam should be placed perpendicular to the bamboo sticks, so that the beam 
would hold down the sticks without the presence of the fishing wire. Once 
this is done, one may then tie a string around the schach to anchor and 
protect it from falling off in a gusting wind (ruach she'ayna metzuya).

3.      As with all schach, Star-K certified schach may also not be placed 
directly on top of metal. If one has a metal frame one should cover the 
frame with wooden slats and place the schach on top of the these slats.


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I just had an operation on my arm yesterday, and my doctor told me not 
to use it to lift anything heavy for a few days.  In practice this is 
irrelevant, since my wife and son can carry the necessary equipment into 
the sukkah.  But suppose I lived alone.  Sitting in the sukkah would not 
cause me tza'ar, but getting to the sukkah would.  Would that mean I was 
patur mishum mitztaer? How do you know?

David Riceman

On 12/10/2011 1:18 AM, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> But there isn't any other chiyuv achila.
> Erev Yom Kippur is the only time we have a chiyuv achila.
>
> I will now explain, as someone once explained it to me:
>
> We have a chiyuv of matza, and we accomplish it by eating.
> We have a chiyuv of oneg Shabbos, and we accomplish it by eating.
> We have a chiyuv of sukkah, and we accomplish it by eating.
> We have a chiyuv of Simchas Yom Tov, and we accomplish it by eating.
>
> But on Erev Yom Kippur, the chiyuv is simply to*eat*. It is not a
> means to some other end. It is the end itself. Just eat. That's the
> mitzvah on Erev Yom Kippur.

I disagree in the case of matzah, maror, and korbanot.  There the mitzvah
is the eating itself; unlike EYK it applies only to specific foods, not
to everything, but when one eats those specific foods the eating is not a
means to an end but the mitzvah itself.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

 From http://revach.net/article.php?id=1090

Rav Elyashiv (Halichos V'Hanhagos) holds that you must optimally 
light Shabbos and Yom Tov candles in the Succah. If you cannot, you 
must light it in a place where the light of the candles gives off 
light into the Succah. If that is not possible then you should light 
candles in the place where you prepare the meal or any other room 
that you will use. However the bracha should not be made when 
lighting those candles. What should be done is that immediately 
afterwards you should turn on the Succah lights and make the bracha then.

I note that there is no mention of making sure that the candles, 
which will be outside and at times unattended, do not cause a fire.

Rav A. Miller said more than once, "If a woman cannot watch the 
candles after she lights them, then it is better not to light them!"

YL
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On 12/10/2011 1:03 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> I note that there is no mention of making sure that the candles, which will be outside and at times unattended, do not cause a fire.

It's an explicit law in SA that one must not bring lamps into the sukkah
if it's so small that the flame might reach the wall or schach and set it
on fire.  In such a case one must leave the lamps outside the sukkah
shining in (not lighting at all, and sitting in the dark, is obviously
not an option).

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 01:03:08PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Rav A. Miller said more than once, "If a woman cannot watch the candles 
> after she lights them, then it is better not to light them!"

Wouldn't it better than either if she would light indoors, and eat at
least part of her meal near those lights?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 10/12/2011 12:35 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 12/10/2011 1:03 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
>> I note that there is no mention of making sure that the candles, 
>> which will be outside and at times unattended, do not cause a fire.
>
> It's an explicit law in SA that one must not bring lamps into the sukkah
> if it's so small that the flame might reach the wall or schach and set it
> on fire.  In such a case one must leave the lamps outside the sukkah
> shining in (not lighting at all, and sitting in the dark, is obviously
> not an option).

Last year, our Sukkah almost burned.  There's still a scorch mark.  I 
think we'll light inside.

Lisa

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 08:32:08AM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
> I just had an operation on my arm yesterday, and my doctor told me not  
> to use it to lift anything heavy for a few days.  In practice this is  
> irrelevant, since my wife and son can carry the necessary equipment into  
> the sukkah.  But suppose I lived alone.  Sitting in the sukkah would not  
> cause me tza'ar, but getting to the sukkah would.  Would that mean I was  
> patur mishum mitztaer? How do you know?

I just found the following in YU's Sukkot to Go 5769. "Happiness
to Go: A Spiritual Plan" by Rabbi Chaim Eisenstein, a RaM at Netiv Aryeh
<http://www.yutorah.org/togo/sukkot/articles/Sukkot_T
o-Go_-_5769_Rabbi_Chaim_Eisenstein.pdf>
(<http://bit.ly/mW0Xbg>):
    One year, when Rav Soloveitchik was a child, it rained on the first
    night of Sukkos in Chaslovitch. In the middle of the night he felt
    his father nudging him awake. "Berel, Berel, get up. It stopped
    raining. We can go eat in the succah." Already a child prodigy, Rav
    Soloveitchik asked his father, "Father, I don't understand. Isn't
    the reason we assume that we didn't fulfill the mitzvah of eating
    in the succah earlier this evening is that we were mitzta'er when
    we were sitting in the rain? But it is also uncomfortable now to get
    out of bed and go outside." Rav Moshe then explained to his son that
    initially they did not fulfill the mitzvah (according to the Gra)
    because when it rains, the succah loses its identity as a succah.
                            Harerei Kedem vol.1 chap. 115

RMS didn't consider the tza'ar of waking up and getting out of bed to make
one mitzta'eir. I don't know if it's the low level of tza'ar, or because
the issue is a lack of "ke'ein taduru", it refers only to tza'ar directly
caused by the mitzvah itself.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "As long as the candle is still burning,
mi...@aishdas.org        it is still possible to accomplish and to
http://www.aishdas.org   mend."
Fax: (270) 514-1507          - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

I have a different situation: I have no sukkah, but I still have a
chiyuv of neirot yomtov.  So I will light at home, and when I come home
I'll have a cup of tea by their light.  (I don't eat outside the sukkah,
but I do drink if there isn't a sukkah within easy reach, and in any event
I have to balance the desirability of not drinking outside the sukkah with
the desirability of deriving hana'at achila from the neirot on which I made
a bracha.  I make a similar cheshbon on Pesach, and when I come home from
the seder I have a drink by the light of my candles.)

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

In Avodah V28n199, RDR wrote:
> RPL:
> 
> <<The Rambam says that real teshuva means that Hashem, who knows the 
secrets of your heart, must testify that you will never return to the 
aveira again.>>
> 
> This is a bad translation.  "me'id alav" means "designate Him as a witness". <
(Checking the ToC for V28n199 and subsequent digests I've received, doesn't look like anyone responded to RDR's position.)
Perhaps I'm missing something, but the YaD text I have (Hilchos T'shuvah
2:2) is "v'yei'id alav Yodei'a ta'alumos" -- that seems to indicate that H'
is the subject and "alav" refers to the ba'al t'shuvah, not H'! so how
could the subject be "Him"?!  Thanks. 

Best wishes for a Gut Yuntef/Chag Sameach from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

The first two days of Yom Tov, here in Lakewood, had lots of stop'n'go rain.
So, while it was raining, no question: Mitzta'er patur. What about if it's
cloudy, it's been raining on and off, and now, at this second, it isn't
raining? And you're afraid that you'll shlep your bed into the Sukkah,
change into pj's, and the second you lie down it'll start raining again. Is
that Mitzta'er?

 

KT,

MYG

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Reviewing the halachot in siman 640, it occurred to me that it should
be permitted to have picnics on sukkot, and even to eat in restaurants
without a sukkah.

The whole point of a picnic is that you are *not* eating at home; usually
you start out comfortably at home, where you could easily eat your meal
in peace, and instead of eating there you pack your meal and shlep it out
to some outdoor location in order to eat davka there.  Since we're supposed
to treat our sukkah exactly as we treat our home all year, surely the same
thing applies: one leaves ones sukkah and eats in the outdoors.  Just as
one does not build a house at the picnic location during the year, so one
should not need to build a sukkah during sukkot.

And it seems to me that the same should apply to restaurants.  Not fast-
food places where the point is to grab a meal where one happens to be,
and if it were practical to carry the meal home and eat it there one
would do so, but fancy restaurants where the whole point is to leave home
and go *out* to eat.  Restaurants originated in 19th century France as
spas, places where one could go to restore ones spirits by being pampered
and treated as an honoured guest, part of which treatment was that one
could "utter ones provision" (as a famous court case put it) and have it
served.  Over the years the treatment became more concentrated on the
food and less on the other stuff, but it still remains the case that the
essence of the restaurant experience is that one is not at home!  Nor is
one in another person's home; that's a different experience again (though
when I was a child in Melbourne, there was a kosher restaurant which was
indeed in someone's home!)   So it seems to me that on sukkot the
experience is that one is not in ones own sukkah.  Why one should
therefore need to be in someone else's sukkah is not clear to me.

One question I have that makes me hesitate to apply this principle as
I have done here, is that shopkeepers, who all year eat their lunches
in their shops rather than building houses in the city or going home
for lunch, are told that on sukkos they must build sukkos in the city
or else go home to their sukkos, even if they live far away.  I don't
understand the basis for this halacha.  Is it that their shops are
considered their "homes" during the day?   And how does this halacha
apply to the case of people who eat at their desks at work, rather than
take time to eat in the lunch room provided by their employers?  Do we
once again say that one's desk is one's daytime "home" and thus one
needs a sukkah, or that one is davka eating in a place that is not home,
even on a temporary basis, and thus one should be pattur from a sukkah?


-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

In siman 639 the Taz quotes the Tur, who quotes RP (would that be
Rabbenu Peretz?) that while we pasken like the conclusion of the
gemara that there is no such thing as kevius for fruit, there is in
principle a kevius for meat or cheese, and one who makes his meal of
such foods needs a sukkah.  Then the Tur says that notwithstanding
this, since it's not the derech to make a meal of such foods, one who
does so is patur from sukkah.  Now it seems to me that this does not
apply nowadays.  Nowadays we all know that it is very much the derech
that the ikkar of ones meal is non-grain, even if one does have bread
with it, so a completely non-grain meal should be considered a kevius
like RP, and min hadin one should be required to eat it in a sukkah.
Any comments?

Zev - taking advantage of the miracle of WiFi to connect from the
sukkah.


-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name


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