Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 104

Tue, 21 Jun 2011

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 15:34:30 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise!


At 03:22 PM 6/20/2011, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 12:40:15PM +0300, Danny Schoemann wrote:
>: Conclusion: Halocho is a free for all. There's a correct way to do
>: things and then there's the way everybody does it, which is OK since
>: everybody does it.
>
>I would conclude that halakhah is a balancing act between conflicting
>desiderata. You have rules, but they often "just" produce sets of pros
>and cons that the poseiq then has to weigh (shiqul hadaas).
>
>One such desirable is that there be cultural continuity (mimeticism).
>Another is the textual strength of only replying the pesuqim in Qedushah.
>
>If the norm to violate the text is widespread enough, it may be enough to
>outweigh the fact that this is a second-best pesaq on the textual level.
>
>But while that's grayer an "hairier" than straight algorithmic rules,
>it's not a "free for all".

Agreed.  If halakhah was a mathematically rigorous system, we 
wouldn't need rabbis at all.  We could just pick up a book and look 
things up.  But that's why there's Torah she'b'al peh.  That sort of 
system isn't a living one.

Lisa 





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Message: 2
From: "Poppers, Michael" <MPopp...@kayescholer.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 16:40:56 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise!


R'Micha responded to RDS:
> I would conclude that halakhah is a balancing act between conflicting desiderata.... <
Agreed, and perhaps a rationale for the tzibbur saying "N'qadeish" is that
they want to be and "we" want them to be involved (I'm not sure if that's
what R'Micha meant by "that there be cultural continuity (mimeticism)" --
probably not :)).  At any rate, the tzibbur 'jumping the gun' on a
"dialogue" between the SHaTZ and them can be seen in many other Eastern
European-nusach examples (e.g. sections 2..N of a given N-section piyut,
where they'll repeat section 1 after the SHaTZ begins the piyut with it and
then say section 2 et al. _before_ he does), so that kind of situation
doesn't surprise me.  Earlier today, I mentioned the example of unmarried
bochurim, even those already b'nei mitzvah, not being misateif batalis --
perhaps that non-action could be defended in an era when taleisim were
expensive (especially if the motivation was to avoid agudos, those who
could afford taleisim for their boys and those who could not), but why is
it treated nowadays, when taleisim are essen
 tially affordable for all, as some sacred, positive minhag?

All the best from Michael





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Message: 3
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 23:00:41 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] eye pains on shabbat


In a recent daily halacha from ROY they discuss eye pains on shabbat.
The gemara considers it
choleh she-yesh bo sakanah because the eyes are connected to the
heart. The question is that modern  doctors dont know of anu
connections between the eye and the heart.

ROY answers that nishtanu hateva (IMHO dont understand how the anatomy
of man could change - though ROT takes it for granted that changes
happen every few decades). So ROY paskens like chazal against modern
medicine.
Thus, he allows any melacha on shabbat for eye pains including putting
on salves and traveling to the hospital.

R Elyashiv OTOH accepts modern medicine and so is machmir  not to do
any Torah melacha for eye pain unless it is clearly life threatening.
RSZA pasken similar to ROY.
There are also applications to an infant boy with eye problems and
whether to wait and how long for the brit.

The whole discussion reminded me of the Salmon controversy where the
mekilim rely on Chazal and the machmirim say things have changed.

-- 
Eli Turkel



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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 17:09:09 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Significance of Garments (was Tznius)


I wrote four blog entries on how we relate to clothing:

http://www.aishdas.org/asp/1994/06/shelach-5754.shtml
(available in a later version at
<http://www.aishdas.org/mesukim/5764/shelach.pdf>)
    RSRH on the primary colors, the numbers 6, 7 and 8, and the meaning
    of tzitzis. Mostly from Collected Writings vol III.

http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2005/06/ki-arumim-heim.shtml
    In the difference between beged and kesus, and between "vehanachash
    hayah arum" and the end of the pereq "ki arumim heim". Also, the
    kusenos or of Adam and Chava and the kusones of the kohein.

    I argue that HQBH didn't clothe their nudity for tzeni'us reasons,
    but gave them a uniform and a purpose.

http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2005/06/tzitzis-advance-and-retreat.shtml
    Combining the previous two to compare putting tzitzis on kanfei
    bigdeikhem (Bamidbar) and putting gedilim on arba qanfos kesusekha
    (Devarim).

http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2007/06/tzitzis-anr-part-ii.shtml
    Quoting CR Lord J Sacks who makes a point similar to my previous post.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
mi...@aishdas.org        G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org   corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507      to include himself.     - Rav Yisrael Salanter



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Message: 5
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgl...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:30:11 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Ehrlachkeit, not Frumkeit


R' DS:
: [Predictably] I would suggest concentrating on learning and spreading
: Halocho. Simple old fashioned "no frills, no Chumros" Halocho. Seforim
: like the Kitzur SA fit the bill; learn it and relearn it and start
: becoming an expert in "the basics".
-------------------


:-)  ), Artscroll is about to come out with the fifth and final volume of
KSA. (Yours truly wrote the indexes - that's my only connection.) Having had
the luxury of going through just about every single page, I can say that it
is truly wonderful and very readable. It includes pesakim of R'MF and the
MB. Highly recommended.

KT,
MYG




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Message: 6
From: "Chanoch (Ken) Bloom" <kbl...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:05:41 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Consumer Alert: Minhog Scams On The Rise!


On Mon, 2011-06-20 at 12:40 +0300, Danny Schoemann wrote:
> R' Michael Poppers wrote:
> > Like RDS, I grew up in a maqom where only the SHaTZ says (more
> > precisely, invites the tzibbur), "N'qadeish...!" but this is an
> > example of minhag hamaqom, and in many (most?) m'qomos the
> > tzibbur says "N'qadeish" (agreed, RnLL, that they should say this
> > [and the subsequent non-pasuq] phrase in an undertone --
> > hal'vai...) before the SHaTZ says it. For those who are
> > interested, this subject is the very first one addressed by RBShH
> > in "Sharshei Minhag Ashk'naz." <
> 
> Wow! And here I was thinking that "we" (they) follow the MB and the
> GR"O even against their ancestors Minhag. :-)
> 
> For the record, the Machaber (125:1) says: "The congregation does NOT
> say Nakdishoch with the Shat"z, rather they keep quite and concentrate
> on what he says, until he reaches Kedusha at which point they answer
> Kodosh".
> 
> You can't get more explicit than that.

If you're looking to understand a minhag that overturns the wording of
the mechaber, the first place to look is the Ari Z"L or the Zohar.

In this case, Halachah Berurah 125:2 (R' David Yosef) says specifically
"The minhag yisrael is like the opinion of the Ari Z"L, that the whole
tzibbur says the whole nusach of kedushah word for word together with
the shalicah tzibur, from the words 'nakishach v'na'aritzach' until the
end of the whole kedushah."

The source is Sha'ar hakavanot drush 3 of chazarat ha'amidah, page 39a,
which RDY quotes toward the end of Birur Halacha footnote 1:
"One needs to say the whole seder kedushah word for word with the
shaliach tzibbur, until the end of the whole kedushah. However, the two
words of 'nakishach v'na'aritzach' should be said loudly, and the other
words (until 'kadosh kadosh kadosh') should be said quietly with the
shaliach tzibbur. After that, when you reach 'kadosh kadosh kadosh', it
should be with your voice loud, your eyes closed, and b'dilug k'lapei
malah" (I haven't figured out how to translate those last 3 words.)

I'll leave it to you to chase all of other poskim who cite the Ari Z"L.
He lists them in sha'ar hatziyun footnote 4, and they include Magen
Avraham, Rabbi Akiva Eiger, Sefer Chassidim. I do see the Mishnah
Berurah in that list, though clearly the Mishnah Berurah never mentions
the Ari Z"L.

> Conclusion: Halocho is a free for all. There's a correct way to do
> things and then there's the way everybody does it, which is OK since
> everybody does it.

Conclusion: RYL would call this a "Minhog scam", precisely because of
its source in the kitvei haAri, but it's legitimately Sephardic (and
probably Chassidic) minhag, precisely because of its source.

--Chanoch



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Message: 7
From: Harvey Benton <harvw...@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:34:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
[Avodah] lo tisneh/bechira tzadikim....joseph & brothers.....


There are very few people/chazal that have the appelation of "tzadik" attached 
to their names. Yosef was one of them; since he is always called "yosef 
hazadik".
there is no mention of him ever forgiving his brothers for what they did to 
them, in fact, they feared just the opposite, that despite having been told by 
him not to worry, (that it was because Hashem had orchestrated the whole thing 
that he was in fact sold and sent to mitzrayim) they feared retribution from him 
after Yaakov died. 
1. did they ever ask explicitly for forgiveness from him (or was their shock and 
collective huggingn following him revealing himself, enuf?) and therefore no 
need for them to explicitly ask?
1a, if they never asked, explicitly or implicitly, should/did he ever forgive 
them? 
2. Just because (in joseph's opinion/knowledge, Hashem orchestrated the whole 
thing, we are taught that people/nations have bechira (eg, mitzrayim, pharoa, 
etc). 
Did Joseph still have the option to (or not) forgive them? and what should or 
should he not have done in this case, and for  what reasons????
3. lo tisneh es achicha did not exist yet, and even if we held that the avos 
kept the Torah (in/out of eretz yisrael, //machloket) yosef was not one of the 
avos, so perhaps it doesn't apply??
hb
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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 06:24:17 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] The Anisakis Worm Rears its Ugly Head Once More


RGS posted on the subject
<http://torahmusings.com/2011/06/worm-infested-sardines>, quoting the
OU's Daf haKashrus. It's pretty long, might be the whole
article.

The "Daf Notes" sidebar on the OU publication reads:

    OU Mashgichim checking the gut cavities of sardines have, in
    the past few months, discovered what appears to be small, white,
    parasitic worms in and around the internal organs of some sardines
    (a separate issue from the krillin the stomach of some sardines from
    Canada). In the following Teshuva, Rav Belsky Shlita concludes that
    these are the same anisakis worms which Halachah permits as being
    dedanei dekhovara. These worms have migrated from the flesh of the
    fish to its gut. Rav Belsky's conclusion was scientifically borneout
    by scientists at New York City's Museum of Natural History utilizing
    thelatest technology of DNA bar-coding analysis using DNA Sequencing
    with Capillary Electrophoresis.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is a drop of intellect drowning in a sea
mi...@aishdas.org        of instincts.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 9
From: harchinam <harchi...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:21:04 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] eye pains on shabbat


> In a recent daily halacha from ROY they discuss eye pains on shabbat.
> The gemara considers it
> choleh she-yesh bo sakanah because the eyes are connected to the
> heart. The question is that modern  doctors dont know of anu
> connections between the eye and the heart.
>
> ROY answers that nishtanu hateva (IMHO dont understand how the anatomy
> of man could change - though ROT takes it for granted that changes
> happen every few decades). So ROY paskens like chazal against modern
> medicine.
>

 Interesting. But I see a different definition for the words nishtanu hateva
than you are using.

We know that "modern medicine" is not a finished book; we are discovering
new things about nature and how our bodies work all the time. Just recently
it has been posited that insulin resistance/diabetes has a causative effect
on Alzheimers, for instance. We constantly discover things that prove Rambam
and other sages were correct that didn't make proven sense to us before.

It is not that the physical teva changed necessarily but that our
understanding of it changes constantly according to what we are able to see
with our own eyes [or our researcher's eyes]. I would not find it beyond the
realm of the possible to say that we may yet find some eye disease that is
connected to the heart -- as a matter of fact we know that gum disease has
now been linked with heart disease so why could we not find out that some
eye disease is also linked to the heart?

*** Rena
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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 09:53:42 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] eye pains on shabbat


On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 01:21:04PM +0300, harchinam wrote:
:  Interesting. But I see a different definition for the words nishtanu hateva
: than you are using.
...
: It is not that the physical teva changed necessarily but that our
: understanding of it changes constantly according to what we are able to see
: with our own eyes [or our researcher's eyes]...

Berukhah shekivant ledaas R' Avraham b haRambam!

This is also compelling when/if nishtanah hateva is invoked about fields
other than biology. Is it?

(Although the molad and the day changed since Rabban Gamliel's day,
since both the earth's spin and the moon's orbit are slowing down. But
that deceleration follows the same formula now as it did then.)


But some of the biological cases could be a change due to changes in
diet or breeding than in genetics or theory. The possible change of the
size of an olive which was called nishtaneh hateva, could be because we
bred a slightly different strain of olive. Or chicken, yeilding different
chicken-egg sizes. Or that mothers are healthier with today's nutrition
and medicine, and therefore 8th month babies are more likely to live.

So we have three senses of the term on the table:
1- RAbhR: theory changed
2- The population changed due to breeding, nutrition and medicine
3- The biology changed

R' Yaakov Menken (of torah.org) noted to me in a discussion that nishtaneh
hateva in the usual sense (I think #3 is the one most contemporary
observant Jews assume) is belief in evolution.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             We are what we repeatedly do.
mi...@aishdas.org        Thus excellence is not an event,
http://www.aishdas.org   but a habit.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Aristotle



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Message: 11
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 07:29:34 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Parshas Korach: Rav Shimon Schwab - Picking Up The


 From http://revach.net/article.php?id=5099

Parshas Korach: Rav Shimon Schwab - Picking Up The Tab For Moshe's Donkey

Moshe complains about the accusations hurled against him and says, 
"Lo Chamor Echad Meihem Nasasi", I didn't even take a single donkey 
from them (Korach 16:15). Rashi says this refers to when he came down 
to Mitzrayim to redeem them on a donkey, and he paid for it from his 
own money. Rav Shimon Schwab asks, why would Moshe think that he 
should have taken the money from Bnei Yisroel.

Rav Schwab answers that the gemara in Sanhedrin (98a) says that when 
the geula comes, if we are zocheh Moshiach will arrive on clouds, if 
not then Moshiach will come as a pauper on a donkey. Why? The whole 
world needs to know that Hashem is bringing the geula and Moshiach 
has no power by himself. If Bnei Yisroel are Maaminim and Ovdei 
Hashem then Moshiach can come in grand fashion and we will all place 
thanks in Hashem and not Moshiach. But if we do not recognize 
Hashem's hand, then Hashem will need to send a Moshiach who is 
powerless and destitute to show that it is not his charisma, brains, 
or money that will release us from the galus.

Moshe was the Goel in Mitzrayim. Bnei Yisroel was not Zocheh and 
Moshe came riding into town on a donkey lacking any pomp or grandeur. 
He came with the stick in his hand and the shirt on his back. To show 
his poverty he should have asked Bnei Yisroel to pay for his donkey. 
Even then he did not, since he did not want to take anything from any 
member of Klal Yisroel.

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Message: 12
From: "Rich, Joel" <JR...@sibson.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:25:03 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] eye pains on shabbat


 


But some of the biological cases could be a change due to changes in diet
or breeding than in genetics or theory. The possible change of the size of
an olive which was called nishtaneh hateva, could be because we bred a
slightly different strain of olive. Or chicken, yeilding different
chicken-egg sizes. Or that mothers are healthier with today's nutrition and
medicine, and therefore 8th month babies are more likely to live.

So we have three senses of the term on the table:
1- RAbhR: theory changed
2- The population changed due to breeding, nutrition and medicine
3- The biology changed

R' Yaakov Menken (of torah.org) noted to me in a discussion that nishtaneh
hateva in the usual sense (I think #3 is the one most contemporary
observant Jews assume) is belief in evolution.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
4. For the non-philosophical types, something changed , I don't really know
or care what, as long as it allows me to not have cognitive dissonance (I'd
say this is the one most contemporary observant Jews assume)

KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 13
From: Harry Maryles <hmary...@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 06:33:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Ehrlachkeit, not Frumkeit


--- On Mon, 6/20/11, Moshe Y. Gluck <mgl...@gmail.com> wrote:

For those who are interested in KSA (no, I can't bring myself to write QSA
:-) ), Artscroll is about to come out with the fifth and final volume of
KSA. (Yours truly wrote the indexes - that's my only connection.) Having had
the luxury of going through just about every single page, I can say that it
is truly wonderful and very readable. It includes pesakim of R'MF and the
MB. Highly recommended.
-------------------------------------
?
Along these lines Oyz V'Huder is supposed to be coming out with a new
extended multi volume translation/elucidation on the MB that will? (IIRC)
include of all the Nosei Kelim too. ( I have some insider information about
this.)
?
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

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Message: 14
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 07:21:35 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Tznius for Men


In an attempt to get some more discussion about tznius for men going, 
let me ask the following. Should Jewish men wear sandals? Is it 
appropriate? Without socks? Is this appropriate?

In light of what RSRH writes, namely, that clothing is supposed to 
differentiate us from animals and bring us closer to HaShem, what are 
the guidelines for men's dress?

YL

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Message: 15
From: Marty Bluke <marty.bl...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 15:04:40 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] Tznius (for Men)


R' Yitzchak Levine asked:
<...What about for davening? What is the "proper" dress for a man when he
davens or says a brocha. IIRC the MB says something about wearing a hat for
davening, but I may be mistaken.

The Gemara in Shabbas (10) has the din that a person needs to be dressed
properly for davening. The gemara states that a person cannot daven without
a gartel (belt) based on the pasuk of "hachon likras elokecha". The poskim
explain that this means that a person needs to be fully dressed and ready to
speak to the king.

RHS told over an interesting story from R' Schwab. He was going to daven
mincha in midtown Manhattan and there was a businessman wearing a suit. The
man had forgotten his gartel, so he took his tie off and used it as a
gartel. R' Schwab commented that what the man did was incorrect. Nowadays, a
gartel is a minhag, it is not part of a person's dress. However, a tie is an
integral part of a person's dress (for businessman) and for many people if
they are not wearing a tie they are not fully dressed. Therefore, the man
would have been better off leaving the tie on and not davening with a gartel
as the gartel is stam a minhag while the tie could be min hadin.

RHS mentioned a story about RYBS (in Nefesh Harav) that at some point the
Rav stopped wearing a jacket for shacharis during the week. One of the
talmidim asked him why? He explained that he started wearing R' Chaim's old
tefillin, and the batim were very large so he couldn't put his arm with the
tefillin on them into the sleeve. So what? He said that no one would walk
around in the street or to meet an important person with their jacket on
like that (one arm not in) and therefore he thought that it was more kavod
not to wear the jacket at all.

The bottom line is that what you need to wear for davening is much dependent
on the place where you live and what people wear.
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Message: 16
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 12:53:11 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Tznius (for Men)


R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:

> True, a bathing suit is all that is needed when one goes
> swimming,  but I do think that there is more to this issue.
> Are dirty, torn jeans and a T-shirt with an "in your face"
> slogan on it proper dress for a Jewish man?  I think not.
> Is it OK for men to wear shorts?  According to some it is
> not. ...
> Would it be appropriate for a Jewish man to wear a red suit?
> Is it "proper" for a Jewish man to look like Charley Chaplin
> (See http://tinyurl.com/44sdops )?  To wear a Chairman Mao
> suit?  (See http://tinyurl.com/439g75z )  You get my drift
> I am sure.

Yes, I certainly do. And I've been thinking about how to respond.

> It seems to me that there is a lot to tznius for men, but
> it is ignored.

I'm not so sure that it is ignored. I think that there is a large body of
halacha - on these tz'nius issues and many other issues too - which appears
not in Shulchan Aruch nor any of the codes, but in the *other* writings and
speakings of our teachers. RYL's frequent quotes from Rav Hirsch are but
one example of this.

> Where are the guidelines?  There are plenty for women.  Why
> is this the case?

It seems to me that the codes speak only of the minimums which tend to
apply across the generations. When you write "There are plenty for women",
I think you're including the many pashkevilin and other edicts which have
been promulgated of late. And I think it is safe to say that historically,
these sorts of teachings focus on the areas where the leadership thinks
that the masses need to be stronger.

We can discuss whether the many edicts we've seen about women's clothing go
overboard or not, but it is safe to the that the ones issuing these edicts
see a need for further limitations on women's clothing, and they *don't*
see as much need for limitations on men's clothing.

In other words, the simple answer to RYL's question ("Where are the
guidelines?  There are plenty for women.") is that our current leadership
sees women's clothing as more problematic than men's. I'm confident that
they don't like the idea of men who wear t-shirts or yarmulkas with the
insignia of sports teams on them. But it seems that they aren't as bothered
by that as by women who wear skirts so close to their ankles that they draw
the attention of men.

And who am I to say that they're wrong?

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
57 Year Old Mom Looks 27!
Mom Reveals $5 Wrinkle Trick That Has Angered Doctors!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4e00946f732a91184ccst06vuc


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