Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 75

Tue, 10 May 2011

• 1. counting shegagos [was: Inviting Someone On Shabbos Who Uses the Eruv when, You Don't] (David Riceman)
• 2. Re: Inviting Someone On Shabbos Who Uses the Eruv when You Do n't (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 3. Inviting someone who uses the eruv when u don't (The Goldmeiers)
• 4. Re: counting shegagos [was: Inviting Someone On Shabbos Who Uses the Eruv when, You Don't] (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Inviting Someone On Shabbos Who Uses the Eruv when You Don't (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: binfol oyivkha (Lisa Liel)
• 7. Re: binfol oyivkha (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re roundabout speaking (David Bachrach)
• 9. Inviting Someone On Shabbos Who Uses the Eruv (M Cohen)
• 10. Re: Inviting Someone On Shabbos Who Uses the Eruv (Micha Berger)
• 11. shabbas invite and using eruv (Harvey Benton)
• 12. Re: Inviting Someone On Shabbos Who Uses the Eruv (Prof. Levine)
• 13. Re: Inviting Someone On Shabbos Who Uses the Eruv (Micha Berger)
• 14. On the Four Sons (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Inviting Someone On Shabbos Who Uses the Eruv (Zev Sero)
• 16. Re: shabbas invite and using eruv (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 17. Re: Shabbos invite and using eruv (Prof. Levine)
• 18. Re: Shabbos invite and using eruv (Micha Berger)

RYL:

<<May I invite a couple whom I know will wheel their baby in

a stroller to eat at my house on Shabbos?  They, of course, do rely
on the Flatbush eruv [at least one of them].>>

The only way your question makes sense to me is that:

i. You hold that by pushing the stroller they are violating an issur l'chol hadeios.

(Otherwise what's the problem, they hold that it's muttar and you are not their posek).

ii. You can't convince them of that.  Hence they are shog'gim.

(If they were m'zidim you would ask about inviting mumrim l'hillul shabbos).

iii. In the absence of your invitation they would never go out with a stroller on Shabbos.

(Otherwise all of their outings combine into one sh'gagah).

But in that case how do you know that they use the stroller on Shabbos?

David Riceman

R' Yitzchok Levine asked:

> We have several Eruvim here in Flatbush. I do not rely on any of
> them.
> Question: May I invite a couple whom I know will wheel their baby
> in a stroller to eat at my house on Shabbos?  They, of course, do
> rely on the Flatbush eruv [at least one of them].

I have seen this question - or variations of it - many times, and it seems
to me that the consensus is to follow the halacha as you hold it to be. In
other words:

*WHY* do you not rely on the eruvin?

If you feel that the basic halacha is that the eruvin are mutar, but for
whatever reason you choose to be machmir, then what's wrong with inviting
that couple? They're not doing anything wrong!

But if you feel that the basic halacha is that it is assur to carry even
within these eruvin, despite the lenient poskim who allow it, then how can
you possibly suggest that they do something which you hold to be assur?

Akiva Miller

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"We have several Eruvim here in Flatbush. I do not rely on any of them.

Question: May I invite a couple whom I know will wheel their baby in
a stroller to eat at my house on Shabbos? They, of course, do rely
on the Flatbush eruv [at least one of them].

Yitzchok Levine "

Acc. to R' Zev Cohen here in Chicago, who established the Chicago Eruv, the 
answer is yes.

Shaya Goldmeier

On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 7:02 PM, David Riceman <drice...@optimum.net> wrote:
> ii. You can't convince them of that. Hence they are shog'gim.
> (If they were m'zidim you would ask about inviting mumrim l'hillul shabbos).

> iii. In the absence of your invitation they would never go out with
> a stroller on Shabbos.

> (Otherwise all of their outings combine into one sh'gagah).

If the melakhah is violated twice beheelem achas one can get kaparah with
just one qorban. But does that mean for sure that the cheit is the same
than if they only did it once? Is it safe to assume that the number of
qorbanos chatas implies the number of shegagos?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger             Today is the 20th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Tifferes: What role does harmony
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   play in maintaining relationships?

On 9/05/2011 4:46 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> We have several Eruvim here in Flatbush. I do not rely on any of them.
>
> Question: May I invite a couple whom I know will wheel their baby in a
> stroller to eat at my house on Shabbos? They, of course, do rely on
> the Flatbush eruv [at least one of them].

Of course you may.  Even if your strict position were in accordance with
the majority of poskim, and the eruv were kosher only according to a
minority or even a daas yochid, they would have the right al pi torah to
follow that minority opinion and carry, and thus there would be no issue
of "lifnei iver".   How much more so when the eruvin are kosher according
to the majority of poskim, and it's merely that you are being a baal nefesh
and being machmir on yourself by being chosesh for a minority position;
in such a case not only may you invite them but you may even ask them to
carry something for you.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

On Mon, 9 May 2011 05:43:11 -0400, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> 
wrote (v28i74m4):
>On Mon, May 09, 2011 at 09:56:51AM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
>:> We can hate the evil of a person, while appreciating that he is still
>:> the work of G-d's hands.
>
>: How does this explain the shira that the Jews (Moshe and Miriam) made after
>: the Egyptians drowned in Yam Suf.  The shira celebrates explicitly their
>: drowning
>
>Look at the reisha of your quote: Didn't their evil go down with them?

Except that Shirat Hayam doesn't say that.  It says "I will sing to 
Hashem because He is greatly exalted, the horse and his rider he has 
thrown into the sea."  Not the nasty stuff the horse and rider did 
(the horse was probably innocent, anyway), but the evil people themselves.

And "Pharoah's chariots and army He has cast into the sea, and the 
best of his captains are drowned in the Red Sea."  Honestly, this 
doesn't sound to me like it's anything but rejoicing over the 
obliteration of the enemy.

And also "Your right hand, Hashem, dashes the enemy to pieces."  And 
"You overthrow those who rise up against You; You send forth your 
anger, and it consumes them like dry grass."  And "They sank like 
lead in mighty waters."  And "You stretched out Your arm; the earth 
swallowed them."

Again, this was a nation rightfully singing out in joy and praise at 
Hashem annihilating our enemies.  I don't see how it can be much clearer.

Lisa 

On Mon, May 09, 2011 at 08:17:48PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> Again, this was a nation rightfully singing out in joy and praise at  
> Hashem annihilating our enemies.  I don't see how it can be much clearer.

Just that it runs against numerous rishonim and acharonim, and how
they apply binfol oyivkha to maasei Yadai.

I'm not going to bother repeating the whole discussion a fourth time.
I already posted a link to my collection of sources that contradict
your conclusion posted in those previous iterations. I didn't revisit
the subject since to have anything to add now.

Again, see
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2007/07/compassion-for-our-enemies.shtml>

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 20th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Tifferes: What role does harmony
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   play in maintaining relationships?

When I was a child I was taught that im yirtze haShem, and B'li Neder were
alternatives to "Az Gu wet losen Leben=If God will let me live (to carry
out my intention,") The purpose is that nothing that is said should imply a
neder so that, should I die before I carry out my plan, I will not die with
an unfulfilled neder.
In any event, "God willing," is not intended to make God a co-conspirator..
On the lighter side, I remember some one in the Kloyz saying some thin to the effect, "I will see you on Monday, as Gut vet lozen leben, if not, Tuesday."
David Bachrach
Bachra...@verizon.net  

YL asks - We have several Eruvim here in Flatbush. I do not rely on any of
them.
Question: May I invite a couple whom I know will wheel their baby in 
a stroller to eat at my house on Shabbos?  They, of course, do rely 
on the Flatbush eruv [at least one of them].

Ie 
can I give a food item with a hechsher that I don't use, to some who does?
Can I allow my wife carry in an eruv that I don't rely on?
Can I give an item of clothing that my community doesn't wear, to someone
who wears such items?

The answer is the same to all for these types of questions:
If you hold it is asur midinah, then you can't be machshil another in this
isur.
If you hold it to be a chumrah, then another doesn't have to hold of your
chumros.

Mordechai Cohen

R' Chaim Brisker and all his better-known descendents do not use
community eruvin.

But, RYBS told a story about his childhood back in Chaslovitch. R' Moshe
-- in his role as a Litvisher shtut-rav in a primarily Chabad town --
would pay him 2 kopeks to check the eruv each Friday.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

RYLevine wrote:
We have several Eruvim here in Flatbush. I do not rely on any of them.

Question: May I invite a couple whom I know will wheel their baby in 
a stroller to eat at my house on Shabbos?  They, of course, do rely 
on the Flatbush eruv [at least one of them].

Yitzchok Levine 

A related question that I posed (after hearing a second-hand Chabad Los Angeles 
Posek's view) is, may one ask someone to carry for them (if the other party uses 
the eruv) while you do not?
The Chabad posek's view -again, heard second-hand- is "no".  
But I asked one of the main Poskim who serves on serves on one of the two main 
Ashkenazi Bies Din in Los Angeles (and runs a smicha program), if it is a 
problem, and he said that it is not a problem...........
Perhaps Chabad has a different Shita, or each of the Rabbi's have different 
reasons for their views.......
HB
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At 08:40 AM 5/10/2011, M Cohen wrote:
>YL asks - We have several Eruvim here in Flatbush. I do not rely on any of
>them.
>Question: May I invite a couple whom I know will wheel their baby in
>a stroller to eat at my house on Shabbos?  They, of course, do rely
>on the Flatbush eruv [at least one of them].
>
>Ie
>can I give a food item with a hechsher that I don't use, to some who does?
>Can I allow my wife carry in an eruv that I don't rely on?
>Can I give an item of clothing that my community doesn't wear, to someone
>who wears such items?
>
>The answer is the same to all for these types of questions:
>If you hold it is asur midinah, then you can't be machshil another in this
>isur.
>If you hold it to be a chumrah, then another doesn't have to hold of your
>chumros.
>
>Mordechai Cohen

It it not at all clear to me that not using the Eruv in Flatbush is a 
chumra.  Reb Moshe paskened that one could not make an eruv in 
Brooklyn, and Rav Belsky holds the same thing, namely, that none of 
the Eruvim in Brooklyn are valid.  Someone told me that he was once 
walking carrying his talis, and he encountered Rav Hillel David.  R. 
David proceeded to berate him in no uncertain terms, making it clear 
that according to him there was no Eruv in Flatbush.

All of this seems to me to be more than a chumra.

OTOH,  there are many fine Jews who do use the Eruv in Flatbush.  My 
understanding is that most of the Chassidim living in Boro Park use 
the Eruv there.  There are poskim who permit it and say that the 
Eruvim in Flatbush and BP are valid.

Someone told me that on a certain Shabbos the food for the Seudah 
Shlishis in shul was mistakenly left in someone's home over 
Shabbos.  R. Dovid Cohen was asked what to do about this, and he 
said, "Have someone who uses the Eruv bring the food to shul."
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On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 09:46:18AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> It it not at all clear to me that not using the Eruv in Flatbush is a  
> chumra.  Reb Moshe paskened that one could not make an eruv in Brooklyn, 
> and Rav Belsky holds the same thing, namely, that none of the Eruvim in 
> Brooklyn are valid....

According to R' Dovid Cohen, circa early 80s, RMF prefaced his answer with
a disclaimer. RMF tried to pursuade the sho'el to go to someone else,
acknowledging that his pesaq would based on a shitah of his that was a
daas yachid, and they were better off going elsewhere. But the sho'el
insisted that the eruv needed RMF's input to get off the ground anyway...

RDC at the time said that much of his opposition to the Flatbush eruv
was from the dinim of kavod harav, not hilkhos eruvin.

And, it would seem that RMF did consider it a chumerah, in at least one
sense of the word chumerah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 21st day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Malchus sheb'Tifferes: What is the unifying
Fax: (270) 514-1507                             factor in harmony?

On Sun, May 08, 2011 at 11:33:56AM +0300, R Danny Schoemann wrote on
Areivim:
: SBA wrote:
:: Talking of the 4 sons, I was wondering how come that the Chochom who asks
:: questions which your average 12 year old could answer is given this title?
:: Shouldn't he rather be called the "Yode'a lishol"?

: I've been trying to work through a novel approach. Try this:

: The 4 sons are not 2 sets of 2 opposites.

: The Chochom is actually in contrast to the other 3:

: - He's not purposely rebelling / doing the wrong thing
: - He's not naive / unwilling to ask
: - He's not clueless / unable to ask

: He's doing the right thing even though he has 1,000 questions about
: it, he's willing to ask and eager to find answers, and not too lazy /
: uninterested to do so.

: This makes him a wise son.

I am enamored on a different take on the four sons, but one which
requires seeing the tam as an ideal. This is actually very defensible,
given "veYaaqov ish tam yosheiv ohalim".

The four sons involve two contrasts: the intellectual vs the experiential,
and good vs lacking. If you get this in a fixed-width font (eg the web
archive), here is the table I'm envisioning:

         | intellectual | experiential
---------+--------------+--------------
positive |   chakham    |     tam
---------+--------------+--------------
lacking  |   rasha      |   shyl"sh

The chakham is the steretype of the ideal Litvak. He wants to know the
dinim and the sevaros. His encouter with Yahadus is on an intellectual
plane.

The rasha thinks he knows it all already, it makes no sense, and is worth
dumping. Rejects Yahadus, and lives with himself by invoking intellectual
or pseudo-intellectual buttressing.

The tam's "Mah zos?" is asking what is it all /about/. It's not a
trivial question, it's one asking for the aggadita, the kavanah behind
the actions. If he didn't know what it was, then the question would also
be pragmatic, telling him what a seder is. It would be a pre-1A version
of the chakham's answer. But instead he is told the "why" of the seder --
"bechozeq yad hotzianu" both from Mitzrayim and from a beis avadim. And he
spends the seder trying to unify that implied duality, HQBH uShechintei,
sheim Y-K beV-K, in true stereotypical Chassidic fashion.

The she'eino yodei'ah lish'ol needs the experience brought to him. "At
pethach lo" (*). He isn't trying to squeeze every morsel kavanah out of
the seder. And notice he gets the same answer as the rasha, but without
the blunted teeth (or is that creating a craving for chazarah?).

(* Sorry for "pethach", but I couldn't think of another transliteration
that wouldn't look like I was trying for the name of the holiday.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 21st day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Malchus sheb'Tifferes: What is the unifying
Fax: (270) 514-1507                             factor in harmony?

On 10/05/2011 9:46 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:

> It it not at all clear to me that not using the Eruv in Flatbush is a
> chumra. Reb Moshe paskened that one could not make an eruv in Brooklyn,
> and Rav Belsky holds the same thing, namely, that none of the Eruvim
> in Brooklyn are valid.

So who says the halacha is like them?  Why must your guest follow their
psak?  Even if they were the majority, your guest would have every right
to follow a minority psak that the eruv is kosher; kol shekein when their
position is that of a distinct minority of poskim.   R Moshe openly
acknowledged that he was a daas yochid on this matter, and that nobody
had to obey him.

In any event, if you live south of the railway between Aves I and J,
then that eruv may be good even according to R Moshe, since it doesn't
rely on the streets not being a reshus horabim de'oraisa.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

maybe the chabad  super-sensitivity to eruvin  makes that  a  special 
case...

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At 10:39 AM 5/10/2011, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:

>maybe the chabad  super-sensitivity to eruvin  makes that  a  special case...


Chabad has a practice of running programs on Shabbos in which they 
know that people will violate Shabbos to attend them.  Now they may 
offer housing for those who opt for it, but a very large percentage 
of non-religious people do not.  See 
http://www.lubavitch.com/top.html?ixobject=2019068 for one example.
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On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 11:27:26AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Chabad has a practice of running programs on Shabbos in which they know 
> that people will violate Shabbos to attend them.  Now they may offer 
> housing for those who opt for it, but a very large percentage of 
> non-religious people do not.  See  
> http://www.lubavitch.com/top.html?ixobject=2019068 for one example.

And they are far from alone -- NJOP, many of the kiruv kollels... Or
this tidbit from JEMSEM (JErusalem SEMinary connection)
http://www.je
msem.org/index.php?option=com_content&;view=article&id=317&I
temid=54

    Cheshvan 5771
    Inviting Someone Who Will Drive on Shabbos
    Rabbi Aaron Tendler
    ...
    This issue has been addressed by many of the greatest Poskim
    of our generation, including Rav Moshe Feinstein and Rav Shlomo
    Zalman Auerbach Zichronom Livrocha, and Yibadel L'Chaim, Rav Moshe
    Shternbuch, Shlit"a, as well as others. The Issur of Lifnei Iver is
    when you are tempting or encouraging them to do something that they
    must transgress an Isur to do. If they don't have to transgress an
    Issur to do what you are asking or tempting them to do, but choose
    to do so, there is no Lifnei Iver.

    ... Therefore, if the invitation included an offer to accommodate
    them for the whole Shabbos, even if there is a high probability that
    they would decline and drive on Shabbos, it is Muttar and proper to
    invite them. To the best of my knowledge, this is is what most Kiruv
    organizations do when planning a Shabbos event. They will write on
    the flier or invitation that "Shabbos accommodations are available",
    thereby bypassing any potential problem of Lifnei Iver.

 From <http://jemsem.org/whos-who>, so that you know the author isn't L
(nor borderline C):
    Rabbi Aaron Tendler serves on the faculties of Yeshivas Ner Yisroel
    and Maalot Seminary in Baltimore, MD. He also is the Rabbi of the
    Etz Chaim Center for Jewish Living and Learning in Owings Mills, MD.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 21st day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Malchus sheb'Tifferes: What is the unifying
Fax: (270) 514-1507                             factor in harmony?


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