Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 223

Fri, 24 Dec 2010

• 1. mayim achronim (Eli Turkel)
• 2. nitel nacht (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Re: mayim achronim (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: mayim achronim (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: mayim achronim (Ben Waxman)
• 6. Musaf Amidah on Shabbath (David J Havin)
• 7. Re: Musaf Amidah on Shabbath (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Musaf Amidah on Shabbath (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Musaf Amidah on Shabbath (Simon Montagu)
• 10. Re: Musaf Amidah on Shabbath (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: mayim achronim (Poppers, Michael)
• 12. Re: Mayim Achronim (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 13. Re: Bizayon HaMeis (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 14. Re: Are "Gedolim Stories" Good for Chinuch? (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 15. Re: aseret be-tevet - friday (Poppers, Michael)
• 16. Re: Bizayon HaMeis (Micha Berger)
• 17. Changing the tune in Lecha Dodi - Revisted (Ben Waxman)
• 18. Re: Mayim Achronim (Zev Sero)
• 19. on nittel (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)

<<My point in the Areivim thread was that when a woman does everything her
mother and grandmother did, then when she doesn't wash MA she has a
perfect excuse - her mother and grandmother didn't do it, so why should
she?  >>

and if the mother & grandmother couldn't read hebrew and read tzena u-rena
in yiddish
and couldn't really daven then it is proper it our age for the daughter to
follow the
minhag of her mothers

-- 
Eli Turkel
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<<i believe  minhag chabad is that  nittel is doche  torah  friday  nite. i
wonder how other  chassidim [ since  we have  previously established this
is a chassidish minhag --- if anyone has  found  a litvishe mossad  who
holds this way  , please identify it] treat  friday  night.....  needless
to say,  kurtenshpielen and tearing toiletpaper  can't be the friday nite
nittel  activity......>>

Is playing cards without money prohibted on shabbat beyond not being
appropriate
which would be over-ridden by nitel nacht

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 10:07:28PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: and if the mother & grandmother couldn't read hebrew and read tzena u-rena
: in yiddish
: and couldn't really daven then it is proper it our age for the daughter to
: follow the minhag of her mothers

Are you arguing that the CC's "eis la'asos" includes mayim acharonim?

(Which I still don't think is a technical "eis la'asos". The CC also
argues that the original rule of teaching only what they need to lead
observant lives is extended beyond learning halakhah lemaaseh and the
basics by the realia of their receiving a secular education. That's enough
to justify the change without saying that observance of the whole trumps
a single issur.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On 23/12/2010 3:07 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
>> My point in the Areivim thread was that when a woman does everything her
>> mother and grandmother did, then when she doesn't wash MA she has a
>> perfect excuse - her mother and grandmother didn't do it, so why should
>> she?

> and if the mother & grandmother couldn't read hebrew and read tzena u-rena in yiddish
> and couldn't really daven then it is proper it our age for the daughter to follow the
> minhag of her mothers

It's certainly proper to read Tzena-Rena.  And davening in any language
is equally kosher.  But what has that got to do with the topic?  No
learning is or was necessary to spill a bit of water over ones fingertips.
A woman who follows "torat imecha" is entitled to rely on the same
authority for not washing MA that her mother and grandmother relied on,
i.e. their grandmothers.   As RAS said, the best proof that it's not
required is that his mother didn't do it.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

Well let's take this idea to the logical extreme: If our grandparents didn't come to Eretz Yisrael, does that mean that we shouldn't?

Answer to your question and the above: You can't compare their situation to
ours. Women didn't have learning opportunities; people couldn't come to
Eretz Yisrael. So what we can learn from previous generations regarding
these questions is very limited.

Nothing was really stopping anyone from doing MA. Therefore, that fact that they chose not to has significance for us.

Ben
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Eli Turkel 
  and if the mother & grandmother couldn't read hebrew and read tzena u-rena in yiddish
  and couldn't really daven then it is proper it our age for the daughter to follow the
  minhag of her mothers
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In the early part of last century, there were some synagogues in England and
Australia in which the Musaf Amidah was recited quietly but with no
repetition, apparently based on a ruling of Chief Rabbi Hermann Adler.  I do
not know if there was a similar practice in the USA.  Is there any halachic
basis to this?

On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 07:41:31AM +1100, David J Havin wrote:
: In the early part of last century, there were some synagogues in England and
: Australia in which the Musaf Amidah was recited quietly but with no
: repetition, apparently based on a ruling of Chief Rabbi Hermann Adler.  I do
: not know if there was a similar practice in the USA.  Is there any halachic
: basis to this?

See the Rambam's shu"t #256. The Rambam noticed that people ignored
chazaras hashatz, and it became a time for talking, stepping out for
a minute, and other loss of qedushah (and berakhos levatalah for the
chazan), so he abolished silent Mussaf.

The Rambam notes that the sho'el's community was already doing so for RH.
We see from R' Chanokh requiring Malkhios, Zikhronos and Shoferos,
that until then the norm in Spain was to say RH Mussaf silently, but a
shortened version -- perhaps the one used for the other tefillos, as it
could be remembered by more people without a siddur. (See the Rosh at
the end of Mes' RH.)

The notion that RH mussaf was more logical to omit the silent "Shemoneh
Esrei" comes from the mishnah RH 4:9 and the position in the gemara
(34b-35a) that even people who know the words are allowed follow Rabban
Gamliel on RH and YK because of the length of mussaf on those two days.

But as for not saying a silent Mussaf on Shabbos, the only Rishon I
know of is the Rambam's taqanah, which I guess could only be applied to
a zitzfleish impaired minyan that need the time shortened or else the
tefillah will suffer worse damage than the ommission.

And the only qehillos I know of who do this ad hayom hazeh are (logically
enough) Teimani.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Strength does not come from winning. Your
mi...@aishdas.org        struggles develop your strength When you go
http://www.aishdas.org   through hardship and decide not to surrender,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      that is strength.        - Arnold Schwarzenegger

On 23/12/2010 4:18 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 07:41:31AM +1100, David J Havin wrote:
> : In the early part of last century, there were some synagogues in England and
> : Australia in which the Musaf Amidah was recited quietly but with no
> : repetition, apparently based on a ruling of Chief Rabbi Hermann Adler.  I do
> : not know if there was a similar practice in the USA.  Is there any halachic
> : basis to this?

> See the Rambam's shu"t #256. The Rambam noticed that people ignored
> chazaras hashatz, and it became a time for talking, stepping out for
> a minute, and other loss of qedushah (and berakhos levatalah for the
> chazan), so he abolished silent Mussaf.

Which is the opposite of the practise under discussion here.

> And the only qehillos I know of who do this ad hayom hazeh are (logically
> enough) Teimani.

Spanish-Portuguese do a sort of combination.  The kahal starts out
together with the chazan, then after kedusha the chazan says the middle
bracha silently and waits just before its end until everyone finishes,
and then he picks up aloud.   I've also seen this in some Moroccan
minyanim.   I've also seen Moroccan minyanim omit duchening in musaf
in order to save time.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 07:41:31AM +1100, David J Havin wrote:
> : In the early part of last century, there were some synagogues in England
> and
> : Australia in which the Musaf Amidah was recited quietly but with no
> : repetition, apparently based on a ruling of Chief Rabbi Hermann Adler.  I
> do
> : not know if there was a similar practice in the USA.  Is there any
> halachic
> : basis to this?
>
> And the only qehillos I know of who do this ad hayom hazeh are (logically
> enough) Teimani.
>
>
Add to that "Western" Sephardim (North Africans and Spanish and Portuguese).
There is a teshuva in Rav Yosef Mashash's Mayyim Hayyim, beginning at
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1911&;pgnum=69
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On 23/12/2010 5:14 PM, Simon Montagu wrote:

> Add to that "Western" Sephardim (North Africans and Spanish and Portuguese).

I thought Moroccans did it too, but recently I've been to several
Moroccan shuls that didn't.  I asked one Moroccan rav who said he
knew of such a practise among "old" Moroccan minyanim, but not in his
experience.  I'm not quite sure what he meant by "old".

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

In Avodah V27n222#2 (I'm not a card player, but to quote a baseball
announcer talking about a 2-2 count w/ 2 outs [al achas kamah v'kamah w/ 2
players on the bases], deuces are wild), RShG wrote:
> yekkes never accepted the "chumra" or "chova", not b/c of melech s'domis, 
but b/c we used silverware.   :) <
From one Yekke to another (and the list): in all seriousness, I recall once
reading a passage from MaHaRYL re mayim acharonim (the context was the
Seider night) -- one Rav (at the table?) didn't wash MA unless his hands
were dirty, but IINM MaHaRYL looked askance at not washing MA. (For the
record: I don't wash MA unless my hands are dirty, and if I do wash, I
_really_ wash -- IIRC, RAZZ in his article was puzzled by those who wash
with a teensy amount of water....)

A gut'n Shabbes and all the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

R' Zev Sero wrote:

> My point in the Areivim thread was that when a woman does
> everything her mother and grandmother did, then when she
> doesn't wash MA she has a perfect excuse - her mother and
> grandmother didn't do it, so why should she?

I agree with your conclusion, but not with the logic you use to get there.

If a man does everything his father and grandfather did, then when he
relies on them and skips something that the Shulchan Aruch requires, does
he have a perfect excuse? His father and grandfather didn't do it, so why
should he?

On the contrary. One can bring evidence that this is a
[minhag/din/whatever]  that was accepted by the men but not accepted by the
women, but one cannot say, "I am bound by what my grandparents did and no
more."

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Obama Urges Homeowners to Refinance
If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Obama's Refi Program
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4d13e4c66c40487cee7st03vuc

R"n Toby Katz wrote:
> But let us not kid ourselves that a C or R tahara is a tahara,
> esp when the members are not Jewish

and R' Zev Sero responded:
> Is that the case, though?  Does it matter, bediavad, who did
> the tahara? If it could be done by a robot, or by RHS's
> proverbial kesuba-reading parrot, would it matter?

Kesuba-reading is a mere minhag. An even better example would be Tevilas
Kelim, which is not only a Mitzvah D'oraisa, but it is one which we make a
bracha on -- and it *CAN* be done by a robot (presuming that we can be sure
the robot did it properly). [see YD 120:15]

Akiva Miller


____________________________________________________________
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R' Micha Berger quoted and commented:

>   Surely Rav Yisroel who knew his time was near was deep in
>   thought about life and death, tshuvah and torah. Yet he had
>   the presence of mind in his weakened condition to concern
>   himself with the possible fear of another person.
>
> With one simple word, they defeat the entire lesson. To really
> reflect the message RYS left us, that last paragraph should
> have read:
>
>   Surely Rav Yisroel who knew his time was near was deep in
>   thought about life and death, tshuvah and torah. THEREFORE
>   he had the presence of mind in his weakened condition to
>   concern himself with the possible fear of another person.

I agree with RMB that "therefore" would have been a MUCH better choice. But I don't fault the author.

The author surely meant to give an example of the sensitivity that this
gadol had. He wanted to show that this gadol thought of something that most
average people would not have thought of. And I think it *is* something
that most average people would not have thought of.

It is only we, on Avodah, who have read this thread, that see a problem in
what was written. Most people read these stories simply to be inspired by
the out-of-the-ordinary things that these gedolim did. But we have
sensitized ourselves to the idea that these stories should ALSO show how it
is the Torah that brings us to such greatness.

I think this story would have been better with RMB's revision, but it is
still okay. Rav Salanter was in an extreme situation, and if the story
inspires anyone else to do such chesed in such circumstances, dayenu. The
stories that *I* think we should get rid of are the ones where a gadol is
portrayed as doing something amazing, when the truth is that he is merely
doing something ordinary.

For example: When the post office clerk offered to ship the Chofetz
Chayim's seforim for free, did he have the authority to do so? I doubt it.
But when the CC purchased an equivalent value of stamps and tore them up,
this is portrayed as an amazing feat of tzidkus. Why? Isn't this a basic
act which should be expected of *all* of us?

By all means, tell the story. But use it to point out that we should *all*
act that way. I hope I'm wrong, but I fear that too many people use such
stories to reinforce their belief that these actions are lifnim m'shuras
hadin.

(And maybe it *IS* lifnim m'shuras hadin. I recall a tread we once had
about a crowded train, where the conductor was unable to collect all the
tickets, and some passengers leave the train with a still-valid ticket. I
can't find that thread; anyone remember it?)

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Refinance Rates at 2.8%
$160,000 Mortgage $434/mo. No Hidden Fees- 3.1% APR! Get a Free Quote
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4d14017f5d8ad2f3ef0st05vuc

In Avodah V27n221, RProfET wrote:
> piskei teshuvot brings a minhag not to say piyutim/mizrorim like shalom aleichem, eshet chayil etc. before kiddush but to wait until after hamotzi
> There is a story brought about the Chafetz Chaim that whenever he had
> poor guests for shabbat he would start right away with kiddush with
> shalom aleichem in case they had not
eaten all day <
and R'Micha added to the story:
> R' Yehudah Leib Chassman ("Reb Leibtchik Shutshinger") was there. He asked his rebbe what was going on, and tells over the answer in these terms:
> The human guests are hungry. The angelic ones are not, so they can be
made to wait. <
Perhaps I'm missing something, but as I sing "Shalom Aleichem" ASAP after
coming home from Shul/entering my house, that piyut does not in any way
delay the proceedings in the wintertime (when I'm hanging the coat up,
etc.) -- if anything, dancing with my youngest daughter in the hallway
while singing "Tzeis'chem l'Shalom" is more of a delay :). 

A gut'n Shabbes and all the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 01:14:12AM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: ... R' Zev Sero responded:
:> Is that the case, though?  Does it matter, bediavad, who did
:> the tahara? If it could be done by a robot, or by RHS's
:> proverbial kesuba-reading parrot, would it matter?

: Kesuba-reading is a mere minhag. An even better example would be Tevilas
: Kelim...

I do not believe that taharah is more than "mere" minhag either.

Which is why we are obligated to honor a tzavah that requests no taharah,
or burial in an odd choice of tachrichim, but halakhah trumps any such
requests that would invalidate the qevurah itself.

(I think we discussed this back when the news covered a survivor who
insisted on being buried in his Auschwitz uniform.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes
mi...@aishdas.org        exactly the right measure of himself,  and
http://www.aishdas.org   holds a just balance between what he can
Fax: (270) 514-1507      acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham

Someone mentioned to me that according to Rav Shlomo Zalman, every minhag 
has a source. The upshot of that is if something doesn't have a source, it 
is not a minhag. How changing the tune in Lecha Dodi, which itself is only 
500 years old, could have a source, would be hard to understand.

Ben 

On 23/12/2010 7:07 PM, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:

> I agree with your conclusion, but not with the logic you use to get there.
>
> If a man does everything his father and grandfather did, then when he
> relies on them and skips something that the Shulchan Aruch requires,
> does he have a perfect excuse? His father and grandfather didn't do
> it, so why should he?

If his father and grandfather, and so on through the generations, were
anashim yere'im ushlemim, al achas kama vechama if they were talmidei
chachamim, and they didn't do something, then yes, I'd say that is good
proof, for that person at least, that it's not required.  This actually
works better for men than for women, because one could always claim that
the women all along the line may have meant well but they were after all
unlearned, and maybe they were simply ignorant of this halacha and the
men didn't feel right correcting them, so they let it slide because it's
after all only a minor thing.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

in considering  how  different communities  act ,   it  seems  that  the 
basis  could  be summed  up as  follows  [ though  i don't doubt  others 
will correct where i have it  wrong].
in chassidish communities  there are two issues. one  is  the idea  of 
klippa  and tumah ,  maybe the center of the whole derech of 
chassidus--tuma and tahara.     adjunct to this is maase avos . 
in litvish  communities  the  ideology  can be simply summed up  , talmud 
tora kneged  kulam.

modern communities [as in MO] certainly  are not motivated  by tuma/klippa 
issues.  furthermore , they would  mostly see nittel as actually 
sociologic---
don't be  learning tora  in places  where one would be killed for this.  
in 21st century  western world  , there are  few locales where  that would 
be an issue.
litvish communities would agree that since  there is no pikuach nefesh 
involved,   it is like a gzeira  whose reasoning  fell away...

what i am not  sure  i understand  is why communities who  believe that 
the world can't  exist  even a moment  without tora   , and  communities 
who  believe  that  the Klippa  power could lead to unmitigated disaster, 
why  they  are not  vigourously  agitating  the other  communities to 
their  derech.


and it's odd that there would  be  an issue  of such  tantamount 
importance that  half of jewry  [ ie  eidot  hamizrach ]  wouldnt even 
have  known of the issue's existence......


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