Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 71

Fri, 24 Apr 2009

• 1. Where Bread Comes From (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Re: length of solar year (Motti Yarchinai)
• 3. Birkat Hachama (Motti Yarchinai)
• 4. Re: Where Bread Comes From (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 5. Re: Where Bread Comes From (Micha Berger)
• 6. Issur Qitniyyos - Sources (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 7. Re: Birkat Hachama (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Where Bread Comes From (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 9. Re: Coincidences? You Decide. (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 10. Re: Where Bread Comes From (Micha Berger)
• 11. Selling Real Chameitz (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Selling Real Chameitz (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Re: Where Bread Comes From (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 14. The Two Faces of Alien Worship (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 15. Re: Selling Real Chameitz (Zev Sero)
• 16. Re: Selling Real Chameitz (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 17. Re: History Scenarios and (Emunas) Chachamim?? (Micha Berger)

At 06:44 AM 4/23/2009, R. Micha wrote:

>To get back to my thesis, I'll summarize it again (as it exists in my head
>right now): I think you can't both lament the dry passionless observance
>of halakhah and insist that no one embellish their practice with other
>inspiring practices. What other pragmatic route would you give people
>to inspire themselves? Historically speaking, this was always part of
>the toolkit, and the source of numerous minhagim.
>
>Tir'u baTov!
>-Micha

Reb Yisroel Salanter did his utmost to correct "the dry passionless 
observance of halakhah," yet, to the best of my knowledge,  he did 
not suggest that anyone "embellish their practice with other 
inspiring practices." He started a movement based on the study of 
mussar seforim to a degree that was not prevalent in the past. Still 
it was within the framework of traditional Torah study. He also 
stressed the importance of making one's Bein Adom l'Chaveiro behavior 
at least as important as one's Bein Adom l'Makom.

Now you may argue that this is also innovation. Even if it is, IMO it 
is not the same kind of innovation that we see today, which is often 
based on esoteric practices.

YL
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Eli,  IMHO You are absolutely right!

There is every reason to believe that Shmuel must have been aware of 
the more accurate value proposed by Rav Adda, for the reasons given 
in my article on Birkat Hachama at: 
http://www.http://www.geocities.com/calendar.luchot

The value was arrived at 300 years before Shmuel and Rav Adda by 
Hipparchus, a Greek mathematician and astronomer, and Shmuel was 
himself an accomplished astronomer. (It would be like graduating from 
a physics course today at a modern university and not knowing 
anything about Newton's laws.) He propsed his value to fix BH (and 
sh'elah) to consistent (solar) dates.

Motti.Yarchinai (at) (Ya-who?) (dot) com (dot) au

Hi all, I'm new here, so I'll introduce myself first. I live in 
Australia and I just joined Avodah today.

My immediate motivation for joining (let me not be shy about 
admitting this) is to generate some interest in, and discussion of an 
article I recently wrote. Last night I trawled through the Avodah 
archives, to see what others before me have written on Birkat Hachama 
(or Bircat, Birchat, Birkhat, Birchas; something needs to be done 
about this), and I think my article answers pretty much all of the 
questions that have been posed here about it and then some. Most of 
what I have written is neither original nor novel, it's just the 
product of much reading, thinking and computation about the subject. 
It is NOT a halachic treatise, just a thorough, cohesive and rational 
explanation of the system as it is practiced today and how it came 
about.

It does contain one explanation that IS original and novel though: 
The last part (section 7) of the article presents a theory as to the 
process by which its permanent date was originally set. It fully 
accounts for an anomaly that is otherwise inexplicable.

The whole article, and that theory in particular, needs peer review. 
But in my cursory explorations of the web over the last few days, it 
seems to me that this is a subject on which ignorance abounds and on 
which there is a paucity of discussion that is both informed and 
intelligent. So, apart from putting my article up on the net, I also 
created a discussion forum on Yahoo Groups for discussion and debate 
regarding the article and about the workings of the Jewish calendar 
in general.

My article, entitled "Myths and Maths of the Blessing of the Sun", is 
available at: http://www.geocities.com/calendar.luchot

It is available there in two versions - the full article and a 
heavily abridged, digest version. Discussion should focus on the 
former, but the latter is worthwhile reading as well. It is written 
in a style (and length) suitable for an article in a Jewish newspaper 
or shul newsletter, and presents a good overview of the subject 
suitable even for the non-technically minded.

I would like to pose one question about the subject that I am still 
looking for an answer to, and have been ever since I finished writing 
it. I would like to know if anyone knows of a source (other than 
Berachot 59b) for the tradition that the Sun was created at zero 
hours on a Wednesday. Not the Wednesday bit -- that is obvious, but 
the zero hours.

I believe that Abbaye's statement cannot be a "foundation" source for 
this, because it sets up a circular argument: He says that we wait 28 
years for the tekufah (Shmuelian, nominal March equinox) to re-occur 
on a Wed at zero hours, which is popularly understood as implying 
that the Sun was created at exactly that time of week. Then, when we 
ask, "how do we know this?" (the zero hours part), the best answer we 
can come up with is we know it because Abbaye said it? Most 
unsatisfactory, I think -- also for the reasons I gave here:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/AID/867456/ShowFeedback/true

(look at the posts of 2009, April 20.)

(Note: it is not absolutely necessary to assume that the Sun was 
created at zero hours; it could just as easily be that we wait for 
zero hours because it is significant in some other way, such as 
suggested in my article, though admittedly that is a weak point in 
the article. The suggestions I gave there are, I think, a little 
feeble.

Motti.Yarchinai (at) (Ya-who?) (dot) com (dot) au

Akiva:
> And I'd suggest the following insight into both of them: In both cases,
> it is critical to distinguish between the performer and the observer. The
> observer merely sees the external trappings, and (especially if he
> is reltively uneducated) will consider the actions to be magic and
> superstition. But the performer is in a very different situation:
> if he understands what he is doing, and how it works, even on a most
> rudimentary level, then it is technology and bitachon.

Isn't this the classic mar'is ho'ayyin concern or cheshash concern?

And so mystical practices are relegated
By many to being private..



[RYL:]
> Reb Yisroel Salanter did his utmost to correct "the dry passionless
> observance of halakhah," yet, to the best of my knowledge,  he did
> not suggest that anyone "embellish their practice with other inspiring
> practices." He started a movement based on the study of mussar seforim
> to a degree that was not prevalent in the past. Still it was within the
> framework of traditional Torah study. He also stressed the importance of
> making one's Bein Adom l'Chaveiro behavior at least as important as one's
> Bein Adom l'Makom.Now you may argue that this is also innovation. Even
> if it is, IMO it is not the same kind of innovation that we see today,
> which is often based on esoteric practices.YL

My impression from Hirsch is that
Na'aseh is the doing of a mitzvah
And the Nishma is the reflection upon that mitza even AFTER it has
been performed

So during the seder we may "act-out" heirus, but the feeling and the
contemplation upon that ritual may actually take places during the next
6 days of the chag.

Piyyutim themselves are often such reflections using melitza.
Unfortunately this genre is out-of-style.

Perhaps good inspiring articles on the topic could be a more contemporary
substitute.

EG The meaning of pesach matzah marror
The meaning of Sefirag
How these rituals elevate us to higher levels every year..

So even if the rituals while performed might be dry, their afterglow
could be warm and fuzzy.

Think of a great baseball game. While playing it might be hard work.
But then watching the analysts replay it with insightful commentary can
give the player wtaching that same game, some pause for reflection.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 01:14:30PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: Reb Yisroel Salanter did his utmost to correct "the dry passionless 
: observance of halakhah," yet, to the best of my knowledge,  he did 
: not suggest that anyone "embellish their practice with other 
: inspiring practices." ...

Well, he told people to be machmir on bein adam lachaveiro, eg with
the almanos in the matzah factory. Also, tefillah behispa'alus.

: mussar seforim to a degree that was not prevalent in the past. Still 
: it was within the framework of traditional Torah study...

And learning behispa'alus. "Withing the frameword" doesn't rule
out embellishment.

Daily cheshbon hanefesh.
Qabbalos
Veadim
The Beis Mussar

I think R' Zvi Miller, who translated Ohr Yisrael (published by Feldheim)
lists 10 new practices (or versions of old ones). (The talk is still
being sold, so I can't make the recording available for free. It's at
<http://mussarinstitute.org/audio-kallah_1.htm> session 1.)

...
: Now you may argue that this is also innovation. Even if it is, IMO it 
: is not the same kind of innovation that we see today, which is often 
: based on esoteric practices.

Because RYS promoted Mussar, not esotericism.

Just as RSRH promoted a semniotic model.

You don't address my list of universally accepted minhagim (minus some
parts of Teiman) that were similar embellishments when they got started.
Piyutim, seder qorbanos, Qabbalas Shabbos and much of the siddur.
Handwashing styles.

The currently more popular ke'arah layout. And that's even difficult
to defend, as the people who first felt inspired by drawing out an
Eitz Chayim of sefiros on their sefer table were defying "ein maavirin
al hamidos".



On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 06:00:41PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: My impression from Hirsch is that
: Na'aseh is the doing of a mitzvah
: And the Nishma is the reflection upon that mitza even AFTER it has
: been performed

: So during the seder we may "act-out" heirus, but the feeling and the
: contemplation upon that ritual may actually take places during the next
: 6 days of the chag.

I'm suggesting one step beyond. That without a compelling argument from
one of the other sources of halachic desiderata (common practice, very
lopsided strength of formal argument), one should pasqen so as to asid
that contemplation.

I also wonder how much the response is formal reflection in conscious
thought as opposed to experiential.

One of the things about Hirsch's symbol-based explanation of mitzvos is
that he doesn't explain how mitzvos have value to someone who doesn't
posesss the symbol key.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 14th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Malchus sheb'Gevurah: How does judgment reveal
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            G-d?

I'm doing some research on this.

In sefer k'hilchos hapesach he brings 2 main reasons for the gzeira
against qitniyyos

1. They grow near real grain - viz. 5 minei dagan
2. Their flour resmbles kemach from dagan

I vaguely recall someone adding "dayssa" as a concern. Is there a mekor
for this

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Motti Yarchinai wrote:

> It does contain one explanation that IS original and novel though: 
> The last part (section 7) of the article presents a theory as to the 
> process by which its permanent date was originally set. It fully 
> accounts for an anomaly that is otherwise inexplicable.

The question there is why Bikat Hachama is on 26-Mar instead of 21-Mar.
For a much simpler explanation, consider why Xmas is on 25-Dec instead
of 21-Dec.  It seems to me very likely that both questions have the
same answer: that the dates for both were fixed in the 3rd century BCE
or so, when those were the correct dates for the respective tekufot.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Plz post

Micha: (Re: Hirsch and "nishma"..)
> I also wonder how much the response is formal reflection in conscious
> thought as opposed to experiential.

Both. It is aisi both intellectual contemplation like a RYDS might
do but also the touchy-feely kind that maybe someone likea R Shlomoh
Carelbach might do.

MB:
> One of the things about Hirsch's symbol-based explanation of mitzvos is
> that he doesn't explain how mitzvos have value to someone who doesn't
> posesss the symbol key.

> Good point. But at some subconscious level any Jew growing up in an
> Observant community has a lot of the keys simply by osmosis. A non FFB
> on a desert island with a Kitzur could follow halachah w/o any feeling
> but that is atypical.

Symbolism is powerful and primitive. I had a neck injury. every chicken
neck I see is a reminder. No wonder primitives ate hearts of lions. Power
of suggestion! Emil Coue would have understood how it could transform
a coward into a courageous warrior. Not so magical at all.

After giving blood I use to ask for tomato juice instead of orange juice!
:-)

++++++++++++++++++++++

For the musically inclined humm kol nidre or dayyeinu or maoz tsur to
even a secular Jew and it will usually conjure some associations.

Highly musical communities use this a lot to reinforce themes I get
chills hearing "duchening music"

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Given:
Shanah = 355
Regular lunar year = 354 days

Note: g'matriyah has a technique called (IIRC) "im hakollel". That allows
a discrepancy of one to be equivalent.

Disclaimer:  
I don't know the parameters and rules of when this technique applies

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 08:11:20PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: Micha: (Re: Hirsch and "nishma"..)
:> I also wonder how much the response is formal reflection in conscious
:> thought as opposed to experiential.

: Both. It is aisi both intellectual contemplation like a RYDS might
: do but also the touchy-feely kind that maybe someone likea R Shlomoh
: Carelbach might do.

Look how similar TIDE and Slabodka are in terms of objective.

The ideal Herr Rabbiner Doctor is cultured, refined, pays attention
to his dress and the impression he creates. An emphasis on human
dignity as part of Jewish expression. The Mensch-Israel.
Ands what would I have to change of that to describe Slabodka's ideal
alumnus? Less value assigned to cultural development -- although they
valued personal creativity in poetry and music, secular education was
relegated to satifying curiosity on the side. It was expected that you
were well read; but nothing like a PhD.

There is a fundamental difference in how they define refinement. R'
Hirsch speaks in terms of culture. Slabodka, unsurprisingly, in terms
of middos. The overlap is large, but they are far from identical.

I think that also underlies their difference in approach to taamei
hamitzvos.

RSRH makes it about internalizing messages. And therefore when the
message is unclear, he invokes symbology. Symbols do present messages
in a manner where they can be better internalized. Thus the power of
poetry over prose. (They also provide metaphor, and therefore can convey
more than is explicitly stated. A symbol not only allows a message to
go from mind to heart, it also allows the heart's message to be more
fully grasped by the mind.)

Mussar looks to mitzvos to behaviorally change the person. Mitokh shelo
lishmah ba lishmah via hergel. "Smile, and eventually you'll be happier."
Therefore one needn't bring everything down to comprehensible terms. The
human soul is understandably more complex than human understanding;
the mind isn't big enough to contain itself.

This allows for an answer to the value of mitzvos even when you don't
have the symbol key. Something I found a "show stopper" of a problem
and caused my loss of interest in the approach used in Horeb and CW vol
III. (Compare to my posts in Avodah volumes 1-4.)

I was thinking more of that dichotomy than RSCarlebach as a contrast.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 15th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Tifferes: What is the Chesed in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            harmony?

The recent coversation cleared things up for me -- selling vadai chameitz
is only allowed for hefseid merubah, CSAAHP is a kenas and therefore
only applies to what was done wrong beforehand, and therefore the
storeownerer's hefseid would prevent my kenas.

We're still discussing on Avodah how the sale could be valid or not
valid because of hefseid merubah. What's the machloqes over the qinyan
that we're siding lehaqeil because of the hefseid?


I still say think the other issue raised should allow the sale. Given
the storage size of today's kitchen and the invention of refrigerator
and freezer, we own MUCH more food than balebatim (baalei bayis) did
before the 20th century. Even adjusting for difference in income.
Before refrigeration, you had to shop every other day or so for
perishables, so the usual routine was to have only a day or two of food
in the house. Except for staples like flour and sugar, you didn't own
two weeks of food. How much chameitz mamash would they have? A barrel
of beer and a loaf of bread, and a safeiq about whatever flour got damp.
No one had to ramp down their inventory and plan meals accordingly from
Shushan Purim onward to prevent loss.

I therefore think that our current situation would qualify as a hefsed
merubah as the term was generally defined by posqim of that period.

This thread started 

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 15th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Tifferes: What is the Chesed in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            harmony?

 


We're still discussing on Avodah how the sale could be valid or not
valid because of hefseid merubah. What's the machloqes over the qinyan
that we're siding lehaqeil because of the hefseid?




:-)BBii!
-Micha
================================================
My impression (I don't know how one could prove this) is that the
"takana" of mchirat chametz was instituted due to hefsed mrubah (think
owners of distillery) but once instituted (or perhaps when instituted it
became?) more of a lo plug(i.e. either the takkana was a process takkana
which covered more than the original issue that was of concern or over
time that's what it evolved to by common practice)

KT
Joel Rich
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Micha:
> There is a fundamental difference in how they define refinement. R'
> Hirsch speaks in terms of culture. Slabodka, unsurprisingly, in terms
> of middos. The overlap is large, but they are far from identical.

> I think that also underlies their difference in approach to taamei
> hamitzvos.

Indeed the overlap is tremendous. They are both saying: 
    "It's not enough to be a good Jew,
    you've got to be a mensch, too!"

Yet,
There are societal/cultrual contrasts 

Russia - authoritarian and oppressive

Germany athoritairan but socially "open" (no more ghetto, enlightened, etc.)

(USA-Canada Libertarian and Open)

That is why AISI Westernized Hirschian TIDE is more in harmony with our
North American society

OTOH if you hold USA (North America) as too permissive, you might davka
with withdraw into an Eastern European ghetto mentality.

The problem with the latter AISI is that once sees the benign government
as the Czar then one tend to come up with heterim for lying and
cheating. The gov't and society.

Rav Schwab was careful to avoid this trap and considered the USA a
medina of Chessed (although perhaps also of pritzus since the 1960's)

I see both RYS and RSRH as advocating a "Torah with class" approach

Good Shabbos
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

I am drafting a blog post that is about Nadav and Avihu.

It is tangentially related to thread on "Where bread comes from"

Issue: when is innovation in practice kosher and when is it out of bounds

The following is more parshanus than psaq

Good Shabbos
RRW

+++++++++++++++++++++

Some phrases can be quite ambiguous
EG
Slow Children at School
Does this refer to children who attend a school for the intellectually
challenged?
Most likely it means
X go SLOWly! - CHILDREN are attending or leaving SCHOOL

When in English we say "alien worship"

We may imply two different points

Worshipping Aliens (I.E. alien gods) which makes the Alien the Object
of worship

Or

Worshipping in an Alien-manner which means alien is an Adverb describing
HOW we worship.

Both aspects are discussed in the Torah

In the Ten Commandments we are admonished not to worship anyone but GOD
alone. "Thou shalt have no other gods before ME." Thus the proscription
for alien worship known in rabbinical literature as Avadah Zarah. AKA
avodat ellillim / gellilim / koachavim flows from basic Torah principles.
And as we see zara means alien.

OTOH alien worship in terms of a "HOW" to worship is not directly or
so obviously prohibited. Yet the torah unambiguously condemns such
a practice.

The first condemnation is in the passage describing the terrifying and
tragic Deaths of Nadav and Avihu (Lev. Ch. 10). They were burned in
front of THE LORD by bringing in an "eish Zara" an alien fire

Now there is no question they were worshipping the ONE TRUE GOD. This is
confirmed and reconfirmed 3 more times in the Torah itself!

The point was the how, the nature or the technique of their worship was
"alien". This alien worship is termed "eish zara" worshipping GOD by
the same means As idol worshippers.

In Deut. 12:30 we are admonished not to investigate and pursue the
techniques of the surrounding pagans. It can mean not worshipping idols.
I prefer to read this as admonishing us to not use idolotrous techniques
to worship GOD. The very next verse actually describes their TECHNIQUES
as abominations.

How does this map out in reality?

Worshipping hare krishna would be avodah zara.
Worshipping GOD using hare krishna chants would be "eish zara"

Worshipping Buddha with Tibetan Chimes - Avodah Zara

Worshipping GOD with Tibetan chimes -Eish zara

Christians worshipping J. of nazareth using an organ - avodah zara

Jews worshipping GOD with an organ (and thereby emulating Chrisitans) -
(you fill in the blank)

WHOM we worship is prime.

But the ends don't justify all means. HOW we worship the TRUE GOD has
also halachic (and possibly aggadic) boundaries.

The issue is when is innovation an "eish zara" and when is it kosher -
such as "Tashlich"

Rich, Joel wrote:
> My impression (I don't know how one could prove this) is that the
> "takana" of mchirat chametz was instituted due to hefsed mrubah (think
> owners of distillery) but once instituted (or perhaps when instituted it
> became?) more of a lo plug(i.e. either the takkana was a process takkana
> which covered more than the original issue that was of concern or over
> time that's what it evolved to by common practice)

I don't think it's that.  Mechirat chametz isn't a takanah in the sense
of an enactment, it's more literally a tikkun, i.e. a solution.  The
*reason* it was invented in the first place may have been because people
were facing a hefsed merubeh; without that incentive it may be that
nobody would have put the effort into inventing and developing it.  But
now that it has been invented and developed, it would seem to work just
as well in all cases.  Teflon and velcro were invented because the space
program needed them, and they might never have been invented if not for
that need, but now that they have been invented we use them everywhere.

Chemtzo shel goy is not a heter, it's plain muttar, and there isn't
any reason to suppose an issur on it, or to be machmir on it.  And
where the goy got it from, or what he intends to do with it after
Pesach, isn't really relevant.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

> My understanding is that the current sale-buyback was originally an
> accomodation for Jewish purveyors of liquor and beer.

Two things morphed

The Gmara seems to say that sheichar is ta'aroves hametz. Most posqim
following Rabbeinu Tam consider beer + liquor hametz b'ayyin because of
ta'am k'ikkar...

The heter for hefsed merubbeh in the spirits business became a heter
for every balabos. I think the GRA resisted this accomodation for
hametz b'ayyin.

++++++++++++++++++++++

FWIW: Lechatchila
I try to give open boxes of crackers, cheerios, mustard etc. to food
shelters and try not so sell it

But I will sell open bottles of schnapps

Good Shabbos
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

With the email outage and then Pesach, there were a number of old Avodah
posts I wanted to reply to that I haven't yet addressed. One of them was
from RHBenton on 30-Mar:
> When conflicting medrashic/Talmudic statements describe the same event,
> (with or without direct immediate halachic implications -- like which fruit
> Adam ate in Gan Eden, or was their ever a ir hanidachas/ben sorer u?more)
> how/why should we believe the chachamim on other issues?
>
> It has been mentioned (Joseph Pearlman/Kolel Iyun Hadaf Yerushalayim in the
> name of the Chazon Ish) that if the original sefer Torah that Moshe
> received was found it would be discarded if it differed from the versions we
> currently have today.  Assume for the moment that this is true, what
> theoretically would be the implications for the Bais Shlish vis a vis the
> Menorah and/or the lettering on the Tzitz of the Kohen Gadol?

There is a Brisker thing about halakhah only coming from halakhah, and
therefore determining historical facts can't change the usual process.
RHSchachter discusses this in Nefesh haRav. See 
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol05/v05n073.shtml#12> for my summary.
He discusses 5 cases raised by RYBS:
1- the mesoretic text -- RHB's question
2- whether orez is rice
3- the Beis haLevi on Radziner techeiles
4- relying on someone who heard R' Yehudah haNavi to determine the
   meaning of words rather than a professional linguist.

RHS doesn't mention it, but (kayadua), RHS himself questions the
traditional identification of shibboles shu'al as oats (at least
lechumerah), and wears murex techeiles.

We also have the conscious decision by Anshei Keneses haGdolah to change
the mizbeiach in order to change how nisuch hayayin was done. Leshitasam,
people wouldn't have been yotzei nisuch hayayin in bayis rishon!
Halakhah changes.

Although curved vs straight arms on the menorah wouldn't be a halachic
issue anyway. Both are kesheirim -- even a non-gold 7 metal speers was
kosher enough for Chashmonaim who didn't want to rely on tum'ah huterah
betzibbur! The machloqes was which were actually used.

Perhaps the tzitz as well, I don't know.

The Chazon Ish holds that halakhah was set during the 2 millenia of
Torah. Changes in scientific understanding since the year 4,000 simply
don't have the same import because we lack the authority. (This was
discussed in vol4, in issues around the early 300s. RHS says that toledos
hachamah isn't derekh bishul based on thie CI, and the invention and
normalization of the dud shemesh doesn't change halakhah as defined in
the era for qevi'as halakhah.

This CI comes up on Avodah repeatedly in another context, because it
explains why amoraim wouldn't disagree with the consensus of tannaim in
a manner that doesn't apply to subsequent eras. See RDE's discussion at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol14/v14n100.shtml#03> (although I bet
he lifted it from his notes for Daat Torah).

RAEngel replied the next day (Tue 31-Mar):
> The Gemoro in Bava Basra quotes a story of a Tanna who was shown the
> ancient meisei midbar in the desert. When he returned, he was rebuked
> by his colleagues for not ascertaining whether their tzitzis had three
> or four strings. Seemingly, these Tannaim had no qualms about paskening
> halocho lema'aseh from historical artifacts.

Or they were angry about the loss of the talmud Torah on a purely
lehalakhah velo lemaaseh level.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 15th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Tifferes: What is the Chesed in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            harmony?


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