Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 20

Mon, 26 Jan 2009

• 1. Re: tehillim on shabbat (Micha Berger)
• 2. Avodah Digest, Vol 26, Issue 19: Skipping ya'alhe veyavo (Shlomo Pick)
• 3. Re: Currency and Bond Trading; Ribis and Shabbas Issues (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 4. Currency Trading and Ribis (Harvey Benton)
• 5. Re: Currency Trading and Ribis (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Interesting Count (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Currency Trading and Ribis (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Currency Trading and Ribis (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Interesting Count (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Interesting Count (Micha Berger)
• 11. tehillim at night (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Re: tehillim on shabbat (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 13. Re: Open Door Policy (T6...@aol.com)
• 14. Re: Threats Against A Judge (T6...@aol.com)
• 15. Re: Threats Against A Judge (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: Currency Trading and Ribis (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: Is Smoking Mutar? (Arie Folger)
• 18. Re: hatov vhameitiv/dayan haemet (Micha Berger)

On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 09:09:04PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: FWIW Once upon a time we said tehillim on a Friday night @ Ner Israel
: Toronto for a young man thought to have had lung cancer.

If baqashos are a chilul Shabbos then they would still be permissable
for piquach nefesh.

RMWillig taught (one summer in Morashah Kollel) that RYBS limited the
perissability of Mi sheBeirakh for cholim to a choleh sheyeish bo saqanah
for this reason.

It would keep the list of names shorter without prayer oddities like
the person saying the tefillah pausing, and numerous people saying their
own one or two names to themselves.

While I'm off on this tangent...

I think that MsB underwent a basic change in meaning during my lifetime.

It used to be a community sharing the pain of one of its members. Who
knew of a choleh? Someone close to one of the mispallelim, or perhaps
someone from the biqur cholim took a request or two.

Today's telecommunications made it possible for the congregation to
know of dozens of names. A MsB is now about the unity of the greater
Jewish community.

Same words, totally different prayer.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I long to accomplish a great and noble task,
mi...@aishdas.org        but it is my chief duty to accomplish small
http://www.aishdas.org   tasks as if they were great and noble.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Helen Keller 

>Can one purposely skip Ya'aleh Veyavo at Ma'ariv on Rosh Chodesh, in order
to catch the final Borchu.
>Relevant to those who miss the first Borchu, and it's the last Maariv
available.

See ishei yisrael by R. AY Pheifer who twice discusses saying shalom rav
instead of sim shalom (p. 234, fn 205; p.341, fn 25 in the name of the
chazon ish not to change the regular nusach tefila from sim shalom to shalov
rav to shorten the tefilah to get to kedusha).
More pertinent to the issue of ya'ale veyavo on night of rosh chodesh is his
note on p. 566, (chapter 48, paragraph 8, that one should NOT skip al
hanissim in order to get to kedusha with the zibbur.  I would say it's the
same with ya'aleh veyavo which is not me'akev like al hanissim but was
nitkan as part of the nusach tefilah and should be said lechatchila.  When
the chazzan or whoever says borchu, the latecomer should stop and listen to
the chazzan or whoever says it and to his answer of baruch hashem
hamevorach.
This would be a good place to note to the chazzanim that they should say the
Kaddosh kadosh, baruch kevod, and preferably yimloch hashem, as well as
yehei shmei rabba of their kaddeishim, and the baruch hashem hamevorach of
barchu aloud after the congregation (or louder than the congregation with
them) to be motzi all those people who have not finished shmone esrei and
stop to hear the keddusha, kadish or borchu and want to be yotzei these
tefillot bezibbur.  The chazzan does no service (and is almost useless) if
they can't be motzi the people who are most in need for these things, and
nowadays it is mostly those people still caught in their shmone esrei.
Anyone who can influence the chazzanim and shlichei zibbur to raise their
voices will be mezakeh the zibbur for real tefilla bezibbur and be zoche to
a reward corresponding to all those kiyyum mizvot that will result.
A Gutten Chodesh,
Shlomo Pick

R. Harvey Benton writes:
<Rav Pinchas Teitz, writing in Hapardes some 30 years ago, rationalizes
the practice of selling Israeli bonds without a Heter Iska on the basis
that Ribis implies a known creditor and debtor. Here, however, one cannot
identify the individuals backing the bonds. Nor at the time of the
transaction does the lender know the debtor's identity. Furthermore, it
could be argued that all bonds are sold through a broker, invoking Rashi's
opinion that is not prohibited. And: However, a respondent in the
periodical Hamaor (Jubilee Volume) strongly disputes Rav Teitz's assertion
and requires a Heter Iska for bonds.?[http://rebeltraderpopcolla
r.blogspot.com, posted by Rebelwithacause]>
     The source to which the above is attributed seriously misquoted what
     my father wrote (which, incidentally, was in 1951, within a year of
     the introduction of Israel Bonds -- not 30 years ago).
    He did not invoke the lack of a known debtor and creditor.	Rather, he
    referred to an older machlokes about the halachic status of a
    corporation (or, in the case of the bonds, a state). The question is
    whether halacha recognizes the existence of an entity such as a
    corporation, or whether it has no standing, and corporate act is
    actually the act of the owners of the corporation.	
     If the former is true, then there is no problem with paying interest
     to, or receiving interest from, a legal entity such as the State of
     Israel, since ribbis is prohibited only between two Jews, not between
     a Jew and a State.
     My father's chiddush was to point out that if halacha does not
     recognize the legal fiction, then the borrowers are the citizens of
     the Israel -- all of them -- for whom the government acts as elected
     representatives.  In that case, the amount of money borrowed must be
     divided by the number of Israeli citizens.  This works out to less
     than a p'ruta per citizen, and for a loan of less than a p'ruta there
     is no issur ribbis. 
     Thus, mah nafshach: either there is no Jewish borrower at all, or each borrower borrows less than a p'ruta. Either way, a hetter iska is unnecessary.
     For a very large bond, the per capita amount might be more than a
     p'ruta, so his suggestion was to buy several smaller bonds rather than
     one large one.  Each bond represents a separate loan, and for each
     individual loan, each borrower receives less than a p'ruta.
EMT
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RMBerger wrote:

>>Is it exchange traded or OTC? If the exchange isn't
Jewishly owned, there wouldn't be an issur ribbis. So I think we can limit the discussion to OTC (over the counter) trades.

Stocks are pretty much what a heter iska is trying to imitate.
Dividends are profit share, not ribbis.

OTC Bonds are only an issue if you own the company making the coupon 
payments, and again you're selling to a given counterparty who is Jewish.
Structured products that have interest coupons (rather than profit-linked
cash flows) are more often OTC, and since you're grouping any incoming
interest and making a new interest payment, I can see them also posing
halachic issues. But assuming you owned the investment bank repackaging
the product.

I think Israeli bonds are the only real example, as RPTeitz
noted?. (snip).

HB:? What about currency trading?? From my understanding,
currencies can be ?sold as commodities, at a fixed payment now, for
delivery in the future.? Profit is not made in the form interest coupon
payments but rather on the speculation (by both parties) as to the
eventual price of the currency at the settlement date.? 

While the countries issuing the traded currencies (save for Israel) are not
primarily Jewish owned; individual traders may be Jewish, 
as well as the trading companies themselves.? To the best of my knowledge, 
these trading companies, take upon themselves the responsibility and
financial obligation to deliver currencies at a future date in time.?Do
these obligations, (which can be accompanied by wild fluctuations in
currency prices), attach themselves to ribis potentialities?? 

If currencies CAN be considered as commodities, are there restrictions
as to how much one can earn, buying or selling commodities?  If currencies CANNOT be considered commodities, are trades allowed in
Jewish law, as someone is making money, at times from Jewish co-partners in a trade involving money?
KT, HB

On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 7:25pm GMT, R Elazar M. Teitz wrote:
: The source to which the above is attributed seriously misquoted
: what my father wrote (which, incidentally, was in 1951, within a year
: of the introduction of Israel Bonds -- not 30 years ago).

That's because the blog cited was actually quoting
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/ribis6.html , by R' Joseph Stern. I assume
the JLaw article is from 1981 or so.

...
: For a very large bond, the per capita amount might be more than a
: p'ruta, so his suggestion was to buy several smaller bonds rather than
: one large one. Each bond represents a separate loan, and for each
: individual loan, each borrower receives less than a p'ruta.

May we all be zokhim to be able to have to ask this she'eilah lemaaseh.

On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 10:47:47PM -0800, Harvey Benton wrote:
: What about currency trading? From my understanding,
: currencies can be sold as commodities, at a fixed payment now, for
: delivery in the future. Profit is not made in the form interest coupon
: payments but rather on the speculation (by both parties) as to the
: eventual price of the currency at the settlement date.? 

First, if a three way transation through an exchange is mutar, then this
is a non-issue.

The aforementioned article also mentions that a broker (which si even
less than an exchange) may be enough lehatir -- even if the broker is
Jewish. At least, that's how the Mordechai understands the Rashi, and is
quoted by the Rama. There are other opinions on how to understand Rashi,
never mind the din.

The Minchas Yitchaq, based on Shu"T CS writes about the question of
whether one may repay a loan of 1 sheqel with today's equivalent, even
if it would now take 3 sheqels. RJS quotes and then translates:
     Only if currency has been taken out of circulation must the debtor
     pay with the new currency. If the currency has been devalued and
     certainly if no official devaluation has taken place but merely its
     purchasing power has decreased as a result of inflation, even if a
     specific indexing clause was inserted into the contract the debtor
     may pay according to the old exchange rate.

In terms of commodities, SA allows discounting for early payment
if there is no set market price. Which is shitas Tos'. See
<http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/ribis2.html> for how they reach that
conclusion.

The CI (YD 74:5) and the IM (YD 2:114) make a similar linkage between FX
and commodities tradiging. You borrow face value; inflation changes are
like change in sha'ar of a commodity. Linking a loan to an index is
therefore ribbis.

However, the Nemuqei Yoseif allows one to promise to pay in a foreign
currency. Thus, an Israeli loan priced in dollars is valid.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
mi...@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 09:49:07PM -0500, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
: Saadya Gaon writes that if you count all the letters of the Aseres  
: Hadibros from the aleph of Anochi to the chof of l'rayecha, you will
: find there are 620 letters: 613 Mitzvos for the Jews and the shiva
: mitzvos b'nai Noach. 

The "siddur" used by the kohanim in bayis II included the 10 diberos
and shema.

The Kol Bo (9, "Umaschilin Qeri'as Shema") quotes the Seifer haEshkol
that in Shema there are 18 hazkaros corresponding to the 18 chulios,
and 248 teivos keneged rama"ch eivarim, to fulfil "kol atzmosai
tomarna". From which we get the notion that Keil Melekh Ne'eman is to
round out the count of 248 when the sha"tz isn't there to repeat three
words.

Our [Ashk] practice of saying Keil Melekh Ne'eman (EMN) when beyechidus
in particular seems to follow the Seifer haEshkol. The oldest siddur that
mentions it altogether is Machzor Vitri -- not R' Amram, R' Saadia, the
Rambam or Siddur Rashi. 

Or it could be to follow the Medrash Agadah (Buber, Devarim 5:11 "lo
sisa"), which CRW's post reminded me of.

There are 610 words if you add up the words of Shema and of the Diberos
(presumably the Devarim version, given the location of the medrash).
And therefore we add three words (the shatz's repetition) to complete
the count of 613 milos.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For a mitzvah is a lamp,
mi...@aishdas.org        And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Harvey Benton wrote:

> If currencies CAN be considered as commodities, are there restrictions
> as to how much one can earn, buying or selling commodities?

The only restrictions halacha imposes on profit from selling commodities
are on food.  On basic food items one must not make more than 20% profit,
*after* all expenses and fair compensation for ones labour.  On luxury
food items, or those that are particularly onerous to obtain, one may
make 100% profit, again after paying oneself a salary and all expenses.
But all of these restrictions only apply if the market wholesale price
for the underlying good has remained the same; we are talking only about
how much a retailer may mark up the price (obviously in a situation
where he has limited competition, and therefore is able to take at least
some monopoly rent).  If the market price for the commodity has risen,
then one may charge that price, no matter how much profit this yields.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

I wrote:
> On luxury
> food items, or those that are particularly onerous to obtain, one may
> make 100% profit, again after paying oneself a salary and all expenses.

I should have mentioned that the same 100% limit applies to items used in
the preparation of food.  Again, this is only if the market price has not
gone up in the meantime.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Cantor Wolberg wrote:
> Saadya Gaon writes that if you count all the letters of the Aseres
> Hadibros from the aleph of /Anochi/ to the chof of /l?rayecha/, you will
> find  there are  620 letters: 613 Mitzvos for the Jews and the shiva
> mitzvos b'nai Noach. 

Not the 7 mitzvot benei noach, which are included in our 613 (Hence Rut
accepted 606 additional mitzvot).  The additional 7 letters are for the
7 mitzvot derabbanan.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 12:49:38PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
: Not the 7 mitzvot benei noach, which are included in our 613 (Hence Rut
: accepted 606 additional mitzvot).  The additional 7 letters are for the
: 7 mitzvot derabbanan.

And according to the Semag, who includes the 7 derabbanan among the 613?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

> Birkei Yosef also brings the Ari that one shouldn't learn mikrah at
> night except for thursday and friday night(?) (or hashishi)
> -------------------
>
> I always thought that the Gemara towards the top of Berachos 4b was a
> pretty decent R'ayah that one may learn Torah Sheb'ksav at night...

The gemara is talking about before maariv when it is still bein hashmashot

-- 
Eli Turkel

Micha:
RMWillig taught (one summer in Morashah Kollel) that RYBS limited the
perissability of Mi sheBeirakh for cholim to a choleh sheyeish bo saqanah
for this reason"

RRW:  FWIW Yekkes only say choleh mishebeirach on Shabbos for a real "shchiv meira"

Kt
Rrw 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

From: Harvey Benton _harveybenton@yahoo.com_ (mailto:harveyben...@yahoo.com) 


>>Sometimes  a married woman finds herself in a situation where she may need 
to be secluded  with a man who is not her husband.  For instance, if she 
visits a doctor or  dentist, or has a repairman over her house to fix something.... 
 <<
 


>>>>>
 
My understanding is that in her own home, there is no problem with the  
occasional man coming in as long as her husband is not out of town -- "ba'alah  
ba'ir" -- and could theoretically walk through the door at any moment (even  
though she knows he is at work -- but he could still come home unexpectedly, and  
he does have a key to his own house!).
 
At the doctor's office or dentist's office, it would be a rare office where  
the doctor and the patient were the only people present and there was no 
chance  of a nurse or receptionist coming through the door.  Nevertheless many  
doctors have a policy of explicitly asking a nurse to stay in the room with them  
when they are examining female patients, in order to protect themselves from  
wild accusations made by mentally unbalanced women.  Even though I am not  
mentally unbalanced and would not make wild accusations against my doctor, in  
the unusual case that he does not call in a nurse, I request that he do  so.  I 
simply feel more comfortable with another woman in the room.  I  have never 
known a doctor to hesitate or mind in the slightest when such a  request is 
made.
 
AFAIK halachically it is not necessary that another person be present in  the 
room, only that the door is unlocked and other people are nearby and could  
theoretically enter.
 
 
The case of a single, divorced or widowed woman, with no children at home,  
who needs a repairman -- that is more difficult.  I guess that leaving the  
front door open would help, or calling in a neighbor. 
 

--Toby  Katz
==========

--------------------



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From: Micha Berger _micha@aishdas.org_ (mailto:mi...@aishdas.org) 



>>The  opposite of Torah, self refinement, is gilui arayos. (To put it in
my own  thoughts, the only one harmed when conducted "by two consenting
adults  behind closed doors" are the two people  themselves....)<<
             
 
>>>>>
You try to draw a parallel between Torah, avodah,  gemilus chasadim on the 
one hand, and gilui arayos, A'Z and shefichus damim on  the other.  Two out of 
the three work but the first (Torah parallel to  G'A) is strained.  
 
I don't understand what you mean when you say that the only people harmed  in 
the case of G'A are the two sinners themselves (nor why that makes G'A  
parallel to Torah).  It isn't true, most of the time.  If a mamzer is  born as a 
result of this sin, the child is most certainly harmed.  If a  husband has been 
cheated on, he is most certainly harmed.  In a broader  sense, all of Klal 
Yisrael -- indeed, the very fabric of civilization -- is  harmed when individuals 
commit despicable acts, acts that bring down Divine  judgement.  
 
When only two people are engaged in G'A the harm is minimal but the  tendency 
is for such sins to spread and become more widespread, with each such  act 
tending to engender more such acts.  Related to this is the reason why  a person 
who sees a sotah might want to become a nazir -- the very fact that  this 
woman committed adultery (even though the consequence, for her, was death)  tends 
to increase the likelihood that others, too, will commit such sins.
 
You might think that if people sin in private and nobody ever finds out,  
then no one is harmed and such sins will not become "contagious" but it's not  
so.  Somehow, evil does become known and it does influence the wider  society.  
There is just no such thing as a truly private act that has no  repercussions 
for anyone else.
 
 

--Toby Katz
==========



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On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 10:45:55PM -0500, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: You try to draw a parallel between Torah, avodah, gemilus chasadim
: on the one hand, and gilui arayos, A'Z and shefichus damim on the
: other. Two out of the three work but the first (Torah parallel to G'A)
: is strained.

Not I, the Maharal, Derekh haChaim on the mishnah.

All I try to do is explain the Maharal's stretchier point in modern
terms. Here's my translation of the Maharal on the same point:
    The glory of the Torah is that it is separated from the physical
    entirely. There is nothing that can separate man from the physical
    but the Torah of thought. The opposite is sexual immorality, which
    follows the physical [chomer] until one is thought of like an animal
    or donkey [chamor], it is a creature of its flesh's desires, in all
    things physical.

BTW, the Gra assumes a similar parallel. He writes in Even Sheleimah
2:1:
    The sum of all evil middos are ka'as[1] (anger), ta'avah (desire),
    and ga'avah[2] (egotism), which are "haqin'ah vehata'avah vehakavod
    -- jealousy, desire and honor".[3] Each includes two [parts]. Of
    ka'as: ra (evil) and mirma (duplicity). Ra is revealed, and mirmah
    is "echad bepeh ve'echad beleiv -- one thing in the mouth, and one
    thing in the heart".[4,5] Ta'avah: ta'avah and chemdah (longing):
    Ta'avah is [for] the pleasure of the body itself, such as eating,
    drinking, and the like. And chemdah is like [for] silver/money,
    gold, clothing and houses. In ga'avah [the two subspecies are] gei'ah
    (conceit) and ga'on (snobbery). Gei'ah is in the heart and ga'on is
    the desire to rule over others.

    All this is included in the tefillah of "E-lokai netzor leshoni meira
    usfasi midabeir mirmah."[6] "Velimkalilai nafshi sidom -- and may my
    soul be silent to those who curse me" is against ga'avah. "Venafshi
    ke'afar lakol tihyeh -- and may my soul be like dust before everyone"
    is against ga'on. "Pesach libi biSorasecha -- open my heart with
    your Torah" is the opposite of ta'avah, which wants to sit in his
    home in menuchah (rest) to fulfill his ta'avos, and also for Torah
    he needs to sit in menuchah. And they say in the medrash [7],
    "Before the person prays for Torah ideas that they should enter
    his innards, he should pray that food and drink shouldn't enter his
    innards." "Uvmitzvosecha tirdof nafshi -- and my soul chase after
    your mitzvos" is the opposite of the people of chemdah, because it
    is their way to constantly run ahead, "for a person doesn't die with
    [even] half of his ta'avah in hand.[8]"[9]

    Footnotes:
    1- Nedarim 22a, 22b; Pesachim 66b, 113b
    2- Sotah 4b, 5a; Sanhedrin 98a; Avos 4:2
    3- Avos 4:21
    4- Michlei 4:24
    5- Pesachim 113b; Bava Metziah 49b
    6- Beracho 17a
    7- Yalkum Shim'oni 830
    8- Koheles Raba 1:13
    9- C.f. Bei'ur haGr"a Mishlei 1:11; 2:12; 4:24; 7:5; 12:25; 23:27;
       24:11; 30:10

Note how the Gra assumes that Torah and taavah are opposites. Very
similar to the Maharal, no?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Rescue me from the desire to win every
mi...@aishdas.org        argument and to always be right.
http://www.aishdas.org              - Rav Nassan of Breslav
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   Likutei Tefilos 94:964

On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 11:39:13AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
: Harvey Benton wrote:
: >If currencies CAN be considered as commodities, are there restrictions
: >as to how much one can earn, buying or selling commodities?

: The only restrictions halacha imposes on profit from selling commodities
: are on food...

And ona'as mamon. The fixed range of legal sale prices will limit profit.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

RHB wrote:
> When and to what extent?does?Shomer?PTaim HaShem apply? And wy would it
> constanly change according to societies norms??

My understanding is that the societal standard is the part of the definition of 
sakanah. Why? I am open to your suggestions.
-- 
Arie Folger
http://ariefolger.wordpress.com
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 08:26:52AM -0500, Rich, Joel wrote:
: Gemara brachot 59b gives the example of a son whose father was niftar
: says batchila dayan haemet ubasof hatov (due to inheritance).  Has
: anyone seen anything on the ordering of these brachot - e.g. is the
: chiyuv for dayan haemet somehow chal first? What if one reversed the
: order?...

It is chal first, since the yerushah is caused by the misah. I'm
not sure that's the reason, but causes are chal before effects,
Except in the case of hasaras hamonei'ah, where gito veyado ba'im
ke'achas. At least that's the position of R' Amiel, the only
one I know who addresses it. See R' Ralph Frankel's summary at
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol06/v06n121.shtml#07>.

Last Tishrei I threw out the possibility (which I think was pretty well
rebutted) that yelulei yalal referred to ululations of joy. Part of that
suggestion was that shevarim teru'ah, was a more tenable description of
eim Sisera's response than teru'ah shevarim because sadness followed by
joy is more in line with normal human response to a single event. That
the joy can't be expressed until one dealt with the pain for straight
psychological reasons.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
mi...@aishdas.org        far more than our abilities.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - J. K. Rowling
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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