Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 2

Fri, 02 Jan 2009

• 1. Re: woman reading a ketuba (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: woman reading a ketuba (David Riceman)
• 3. Re: woman reading a ketuba (Harry Maryles)
• 4. Re: woman reading a ketuba (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Women reading a ketuba (Micha Berger)
• 6. Age of "Ancient" Minhagim (kennethgmil...@juno.com)

On Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 09:53:15AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
: The kesuvah-reader also has to be qualified - he has to be able to read
: Aramaic without breaking his teeth...

For their own self-respect. Not for the couple's sake.

It's therefore unlike saying "I want your berkhah at our wedding".

:-)BBii!
-Micha

> On Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 09:53:15AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> : The kesuvah-reader also has to be qualified - he has to be able to read
> : Aramaic without breaking his teeth...
>   
Why? If the function of reading the kesuba is only to provide a break, 
why not a little mispronunciation? It would also solve RMB's problem of 
humility; by mispronouncing the kesuba the reader will not be honoring 
himself, he'll be mocking himself.

David Riceman

--- On Fri, 1/2/09, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

On Thu, Jan 01, 2009 at 01:37:16PM -0800, Harry Maryles wrote:
: I agree. But why should this definition of modesty apply any less to
: aman that to a woman? Shouldn't we apply Tzne Halaches be the both?

RHS, when discussing tzeni'us, points to the halkhah that a man who is
offered to be sha"tz should initially decline. Standing as Chazan is a
breach of tzeni'us. Nu, someone has to do it for the minyan to function,
so eventually someone better agree. But it's a sacrifice for the sake
of the tzibbur.

==============================
?
I have read his?Sevarah on this. But I'm not sure I agree with it. 
?
I do not see the Shaliach Tzibur in any way as violating the concept of Tznius. 
?
It is true that when one is asked to daven for the Amud,?tyat he should at
first?decline as a sign of Tznius. But Not because being a ST is in any way
not Tznius.?It is?because one must not run after Kibbudim and being offered
the Amud is a Kibud. Declining one or two times ibefire finally accepting
is a sign that one does not run after Kavod. 
?
That is a different?kind of Tznius than what RHS suggests. He seems to be
saying that davening as a ST is in an of itself a necessary violation of
Tznius. I don't think one can say that a Mitzvah mandated by Chazal to lead
the Tzibur in Teffila?could in any way?be construed as a form of Tznius
violation.

HM

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Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/




      
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On Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 10:13:00AM -0800, R Harry Maryles wrote:
: It is true that when one is asked to daven for the Amud,?tyat he should
: at first?decline as a sign of Tznius. But Not because being a ST is in
: any way not Tznius.?It is?because one must not run after Kibbudim...

Mah bein "one must not run after Kibbudim" and tzeni'us?

I think RHS's whole point is that they are identical. That when we speak
of kol kivudah bas melekh penimah and tzeni'us, we're speaking about
women lacking mitzvos that force that tzeni'us to be routinely overriden
by another chiyuv.

And I think the pasuq I just cited, which is the usual one WRT women and
tzeni'us (beyond the sense of covering ervah), is very telling. It's
explicitly about kibud.

: That is a different?kind of Tznius than what RHS suggests. He seems to
: be saying that davening as a ST is in an of itself a necessary violation
: of Tznius. I don't think one can say that a Mitzvah mandated by Chazal
: to lead the Tzibur in Teffila?could in any way?be construed as a form
: of Tznius violation.

LAD the problem isn't with identifying tzeni'us with avoiding kibudim,
but something else.

RHS is arguing it's a "necessary evil" -- someone has to violate personal
tzeni'us for the community's greater good. People should hope it's not
them.

But IFF the tzibbur's need outranks tzeni'us -- dechuyah, not hutrah
-- then should't one leap to be sha"tz so as to save someone else the
nisayon? If it weren't better to have a sha"tz than preserve everyone's
tzeni'us, there wouldn't be a concept of sha"tz. Since there is, we see
that there is an overriding priority. In which case, why shouldn't the
same override mandate one to accept the gabbai's first offer?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When faced, with a decision, ask yourself,
mi...@aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

I think we can agree that many of the inovations along the lines of our
discussion, women reading the kesuvah, women's prayer groups, etc... can
be done within the confines of the letter of the din.

The general argument against is one of slippery slope. How big of a breach
can mimetic halakhah absorb and still survive to guide us. Ashkenazim
have a much more paranoid estimate than Sepharadim do for two reasons:
1- we have more people and certainly more women who are textualists, who
want to do the spiritual thing, more than keeping with minhag imahos;
2- we saw what happened to the plans of R's Morais, Kohut, Drackman,
etc... when they founded JTS and tried to "conserve", not ammend,
Yahadus. Solomon Schechter never would have dreamed that the process he
started would lead to what passes for Jewish law in C today.

I want to pose the possibility, though, that "slippery slope" arguments
aren't beyond halakhah, but actually reflect ikkar hadin. Doesn't the
issur against being a "poreitz geder" mean "don't start down slippery
slopes"?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy,
mi...@aishdas.org        if only because it offers us the opportunity of
http://www.aishdas.org   self-fulfilling prophecy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Arthur C. Clarke

In the thread "Woman reading a ketuba", R"n Toby Katz wrote:
> Well as you know, I do not look kindly on ancient minhagim
> that are less than thirty years old. Get back to me when
> women have been reading ketubot at weddings for a hundred
> years or me, and I'll rethink it. Right  now, I totally do
> not believe that this is an "eilu ve'eilu" issue or a
> matter of different minhagim in different communities, and
> I do not believe that any  bride would "honor" a woman with
> the reading of the ketuba without a self-conscious awareness
> that she is doing something that is pushing the envelope.
 
I too don't like the idea that certain recent "minhagim" are perceived as being ancient. But that is the reality, and it won't change easily.

Examples for my generation including the wearing of a kittel at a chupah,
or putting a silver atarah on one's tallis. Examples for the next
generation may include a chasan wearing a raincoat to his chupa, or litvaks
who wait until age three for their son's haircut, or maybe even the ritual
wearing of the red wrist-string.

My point is that if a kallah grew up in a community where women read the
kesuba -- which might be as recent as just a few years, if this occured at
a large number of weddings she attended prior to her own -- then it is
quite likely that she would indeed
> honor a woman with the reading of the ketuba without a
> self-conscious awareness that she is doing something that
> is pushing the envelope.

Akiva Miller

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