Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 1

Fri, 02 Jan 2009

• 1. Re: woman reading the ketuba (Doron Beckerman)
• 2. Re: woman reading a ketuba (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 3. Re: Woman reading a ketuba (T6...@aol.com)
• 4. Re: Kaddesh after Kiddush Levana (Michael Poppers)
• 5. Re: Rav Aviner on Amen Meals (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 6. Re: Modern Day Sifrei Torahs (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Modern Day Sifrei Torahs (D&E-H Bannett)
• 8. Re: woman reading a ketuba (Harry Maryles)
• 9. Re: woman reading a ketuba (Micha Berger)
• 10. Teves 5 (Cantor Wolberg)
• 11. Yosef's Brothers are Saved from Humiliation, Perhaps a Miscalculation (Meir Rabi)
• 12. Re: woman reading a ketuba (Zev Sero)
• 13. Wartime Shabbos (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Modern Day Sifrei Torahs (hankman)

>>> Tavo me'erah on someone who *needs* someone to be motzi him with
benching,
because he should know it.  Why should a me'erah come on someone who knows
how to bench but chooses to be yotzei from another bar chiyuva, male or
female? <<<

I can speculate about the why, but the fact is in Biur Halachah to Hilchos
Chanukah 675 s.v. Ishah Madlekes, writes that a woman should not be Motzi a
man because of Me'erah, and the reason why R' Zera relied on his wife
lighting was because he himself was not home, implying that had R' Zera been
at home and had his wife light he would have been in Me'erah territory,
despite knowing how to make the Beracha himself.
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R' Harry Maryles wrote:
> If by modesty you mean Tznius - again, what is untzniusdik
> about a modestly dressed woman reading a marriage contract?
> It's just that were not used to it.

You are equating "modesty" and "tznius" with "hiding the body". To many,
modesty and tznius are about much more than the body; they are about the
*person*. It's not merely that her body might be enticing to men, but that
*she* should be private and not the focus of attention.

(This post is not to say that I am against women reading the kesuba, but only to help clarify the issues.)

Akiva Miller


____________________________________________________________
Save $15 on Flowers and Gifts from FTD!
Shop now at http://offers.juno.com/TGL113
1/?u=http://www.ftd.com/17007

Well as you know, I do not look kindly on ancient minhagim that are less  
than thirty years old.   Get back to me when women have been reading  ketubot at 
weddings for a hundred years or me, and I'll rethink it.  Right  now, I 
totally do not believe that this is an "eilu ve'eilu" issue or a matter  of 
different minhagim in different communities, and I do not believe that any  bride 
would "honor" a woman with the reading of the ketuba without a  self-conscious 
awareness that she is doing something that is pushing the  envelope.
 

--Toby Katz
==========


--------------------  

 
In a message dated 1/1/2009, jkap...@tenzerlunin.com writes:

>>That's the problem with so many of our discussions; we don't  always  
realize or accept the fact that there are other O Jews --  committed  
and Torah observant -- who think and act a bit differently  than we   
do. <<

**************New year...new news.  Be the first to know what is making 
headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000026)
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In Avodah Digest V25#433, REMT wrote:
> As I understand it, kaddish is a chovas hatzibbur -- when a minyan has
completed something _as a minyan_, be it p'sukei d'zimra, chazaras
hasha"tz, learning, etc., a kaddish is said. If it was not done b'tzibbur,
there is no subsequent kaddish obligation. Thus, if a person was studying
g'mara alone, there is no justification for then gathering a minyan for him
to say kaddish, and the same should be true for kiddush levana, unless at
least a rov minyan said Aleinu.  In the case of Borchu, on the other hand,
the entire minyan is participating.
> This is not to say that it is proper to gather a minyan to say Borchu,
other than at the times the din provides for: at k'rias haTorah, before
birchos k'rias Sh'ma, and at the conclusion of a t'filla which contains
birchos k'rias Sh'ma, for the benefit of latecomers who missed it.  I don't
know whether it is permitted for ten people to get together and say Borchu
at any other occasion. <
Couldn't one be m'chaleiq between a davar shebiqdusha (e.g. "Bar'chu,"
which *requires* a minyan) and Bircas HaL'vanah (which doesn't require a
minyan) and suggest that there really is no chovas hatzibbur even when a
minyan (in the spirit of "b'rov-am hadras-Melech") has said the latter?
FWIW, KAJ never said either "Aleinu" or Qaddish after Bircas HaL'vanah, nor
is either recorded in Baer's Siddur Avodas Yisrael for seider Bircas
HaL'vanah.

On the subject of Bircas HaL'vanah activities: many look at me strangely
when I say "Shalom Aleichem" to them not just once but a 2nd and 3rd time,
as they're used to the practice of saying it once to three different
people, but RMA 426:2 says, "...v'yomar lachaveiro gimel p'amim, 'Shalom
alecha...,'" and such is my practice :).

A guten Shabbes and all the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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FWIW
The iti in gadlu laShem iti likely refers to pitch not. Volume AIU
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "Chana Luntz" <Ch...@kolsassoon.org.uk>

Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:40:55 
To: <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Cc: <T6...@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Rav Aviner on Amen Meals


RTK writes:

> I believe that is also new [or new-ish]
>  
> I think the main impetus behind the "amen fad" was the
> campaign of an  
> unfortunate young woman who was dying of cancer and spent her 
> last years trying  to 
> spread the message, in the hopes it would give her a zechus 
> and a  refuah.  I 
> don't remember her name but I think she wrote a book, or 
> maybe  somebody wrote 
> a book about her.

There might perhaps be some similarities to the practice in a Sephardi shiva
house, however, where it is traditional for those coming to be menachem avel
to eat (unlike in an Ashkenazi shiva house) - with the rationale (as it was
explained to me) being so that those coming will make brochos over the food,
the merit of which somehow accrues to the deceased.  It is thus customary to
have a range of foods to offer those coming to the shiva house so as to
enable as many different brochos as possible.  This practice is, however,
less about the answering of amen than of enabling the making of the brochos
themselves.  On the other hand, unlike these others, I doubt that this
custom is new (or even newish).

I rather wonder though how these Amen parties (which seem from the
description to involve a fair amount of screaming out of amen) deal with the
halacha that one should not answer amen louder than the original blessing
(Orech Chaim siman 124 si'if 12 Brochos 45a) based on the pasuk gadlu
l'Hashem iti?
  
> 
> --Toby Katz

Regards

Chana

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On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 04:56:50PM -0500, Jesse Abelman wrote:
: JA: I think there may be a fundemental misunderstanding of the Rambam here,
: which needs to be clarified.  However you understand the 8th ikkar broadly,
: as being about general concepts, meaning,"semantics," in RMB's words.  It is
: also explicitly about syntax (and not just syntax, but morphology as well,)
...
:                             In it he says explictly (this is my translation
: of R. Kapach's translation of the original Arabic, the emphasis), "EACH
: LETTER which is in it has wisdom and wonders beyond words to whomsoever God
: gives understanding..."  It is clear that he means this to include spelling

Ibn Tibon has "word", which I actually cited as proof to my understanding.
R' "Kapach" (el Qafeh) has "Kol dibur udibur mipi haGevurah".
(See <http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/rambam/hakdamat-2.htm#6>.)

And his phrasing of the denial is "eileh pesuqim vesipurim".

I don't think the text actually supports your diyuq.

:         In hilkhot Sefer Torah chapter 7 halakha 11 he specifically says
: that plene and defective spellings (Maleh and Chaser) pasul a Sefer Torah.
: For the Rambam, the Torah text of the Ben Asher Sefer Torah IS the EXACT
: Torah Moshe brought down from sinai, including spellings, and all other
: versions are simply wrong, and are pasul for that reason.

That doesn't follow. Saying that a given spelling follows azlinan
basar ruba and is thus mandatory lehalakhah doesn't mean it's that it's
historically authentic.

: The truth is, this is a makhlokes Rishonim, which made it into the Shulchan
: Arukh.  The Rema mentioned earlier in the conversation follows the standard
: Ashkenazi view that we don't know plene and defective spellings, and so we
: do the best we can...

R' Meir said it. How can this be an Ashekanzi / Sepharadi thing?

Unless again, we separate the historical question and R Meir's
uncertainty with the halahic question of its pragmatic import.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Live as if you were living already for the
mi...@aishdas.org        second time and as if you had acted the first
http://www.aishdas.org   time as wrongly as you are about to act now!
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning

Just a few of the "facts" to clarify some of the lack of 
clarity or the inaccuracies in some of the postings.

Harav Yitzhari of Rosh Ha'ayin has written a t'shuva that 
Yemenites shouldn't make a brakha on a non-teimani sefer 
Torah.  Aside from the differences in spelling and in 
paragraph spacing, he also points out that the non-Yemenite 
sefer has 42 lines per column instead of 51 lines as is the 
Yemenite custom.

The alef or hei ending of the word daka is not the only 
difference in spelling in the sefer Torah.  TTBOMK, there 
are nine differences in spelling, only one of which changes 
the pronunciation. The others are all malei or chaser vav, 
yud and alef/hei.

The Yemenite sefer follows the Rambam and, therefore, the 
Keter. The only "error" (change from the Keter) is in the 
first word of a line in Ha'azinu. The Rambam lists gam as 
the first word. the Yemenite sefer starts logically, 
therefore, "gam bachur gam b'tula". The Keter line starts 
with "gam b'tula".

R' Mordekhai Breuer "proves" that six of the different from 
the Keter spellings in Ashkenazi and Sefaradi s'farim are 
definite errors while the masoretic evidence for the other 
three is strong but not quite absolute.

R' Shlomo Ganzfried in his Keset Sofer says that finding one 
of these known different spellings does not posel but it 
should be corrected to the Ashkenazi accepted spelling at 
the first opportunity. R' Ganzfried did not have the Keter 
or the other now accepted accurate mss.  I asked R' Levi 
Yizhak Halperin what to do if I find a correct spelling 
instead of the usual incorrect one and he said that based on 
the knowledge we now have, the spelling should not be 
"corrected".  Any of the nine words should be left as is, 
with either spelling, and a brakha can be made on the sefer.

The above is far from exhausting the subject but will 
suffice for now.  I will even spare you one of my 
illustrative stories which, however, will remain in my 
warehouse for possible future use.


k"t,

David

--- On Thu, 1/1/09, kennethgmil...@juno.com <kennethgmil...@juno.com> wrote:


R' Harry Maryles wrote:
> If by modesty you mean Tznius - again, what is untzniusdik
> about a modestly dressed woman reading a marriage contract?
> It's just that were not used to it.

You are equating "modesty" and "tznius" with "hiding
the body". To many, modesty and tznius are about much more than the body;
they are about the *person*. It's not merely that her body might be enticing
to men, but that *she* should be private and not the focus of attention.

(This post is not to say that I am against women reading the kesuba, but only
to help clarify the issues.)
==========================================
?
I agree. But why should this definition of modesty apply any less to a?man that to a woman? Shouldn't we apply Tzne Halaches be the both?
?
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/




      
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On Thu, Jan 01, 2009 at 01:37:16PM -0800, Harry Maryles wrote:
: I agree. But why should this definition of modesty apply any less to
: aman that to a woman? Shouldn't we apply Tzne Halaches be the both?

RHS, when discussing tzeni'us, points to the halkhah that a man who is
offered to be sha"tz should initially decline. Standing as Chazan is a
breach of tzeni'us. Nu, someone has to do it for the minyan to function,
so eventually someone better agree. But it's a sacrifice for the sake
of the tzibbur.

One instance can be found at "Can Women Be Rabbis?",
<http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2004/parsha/rsch_dvorim2.html>:
> Sometimes the halacha requires of us to act in a public fashion
> (b'farhesia), as for example to have tfilah b'tzibur, krias haTorah
> b'tzibur, etc. On these occasions the halacha distinguishes between
> men and women. We only require and demand of the men that they
> compromise on their tznius and observe certain mitzvos in a farhesia
> (public) fashion. We do not require this of women. They may maintain
> their middas hahistatrus, just as Hashem (most of the time) is a Kel
> Mistater (Yeshaya 45:15). Of course, if there are no men in the shul
> who are able to lein and get the aliyos, we will have no choice but to
> call upon a woman, and require of her to compromise on her privacy and
> lein, to enable the minyan to fulfill their obligation of krias
> haTorah. If there is a shul where a woman gets an aliyah, this is an
> indication that there was no man who was able to lein, and this is an
> embarrassment to that minyan. This is what the rabbis meant when they
> said that a woman should not lein - for this would constitute an
> embarrassment to the minyan.(Megillah 23a.)

I would think that similarly we should say, "Nebich, someone is forced
to lay aside their own tzeni'us so that the ceremony has a break. Why
should I force that upon a woman."

The flaw is that if we really felt this line of reasoning, we wouldn't
give the job out as a kibud. Mesadeir qedushin has to be qualified. The
berakhos should be from people whose berakhos are more likely to
matter. So giving these out are compliments, and thus kibudim.
But reading the kesuvah?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
mi...@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rabbi Israel Salanter

Teves 5 is celebrated as a day of rejoicing in the Chabad-Lubavitch  
community. On this date in 1987, U.S. Federal Court issued a decision  
in favor of Agudas Chassidei Chabad ("Union of Chabad Chassidim")  
regarding the ownership of the priceless library of the 6th Rebbe of  
Chabad-Lubavitch, Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak Schneersohn. The ruling was  
based on the idea that a Rebbe is not a private individual but a  
communal figure synonymous with the body of Chassidim. The Lubavitcher  
Rebbe (Rabbi Yoseph Yitzchak's son-in-law and successor) urged that  
the occasion be marked with time devoted to study from Torah books  
("sefarim") as well as the acquisition of new Torah books. 

The verse found in Bereishis 45:1, describing the scene of Yosef finally
disclosing his true identity to his bothers, is translated in various ways.

 

What was Yosef's plan about making his disclosure to his brothers? Was he
INTENDING to do that NOW or at a later stage when he would call them in to a
private audience?

 

Rabbi A Kaplan, The Living Torah offers the following translation:

Joseph could not hold in his emotions. Since all his attendants were present
he cried out, "Have everyone leave my presence." Thus no one else was with
him when Joseph revealed himself to his brothers.

 

In the notes he offers from the Radak, "He could not tolerate everyone
standing over him"

 

JPS 1962 offers:

Joseph could no longer control himself before all his attendants and he
cried out, "Have everyone withdraw from me." So there was no one else about
when Joseph made himself known to his brothers.

 

Rabbi Dr H Freedman explains, "Only the presence of his attendants had
forced him to that iron self-control which he had had to exercise until now"

And "The moment of recognition was too sacred, too precious and too intimate
for any outsider to share it"

 

Both these approaches, and this appears to be the very common understanding
of the event, focus the discussion about Yosef. It was Yosef who was
overwhelmed and could not control himself.

 

Rashi however, presents a different perspective. "He could not bear the
thought that Egyptians should observe his BROTHERS being ashamed as he
(Yosef) discloses his true identity"

 

According to Rashi, Yosef was fully in control of himself and had planned to
make his disclosure at this point and in this manner. It was only at the
last moment that he reconsidered his strategy because he felt so badly for
his brothers' humiliation although he had first planned this for that
particular purpose.

 

Yes, Yosef was planning tough love for his brothers, for how else would they
recognize their failings and correct them?

 

Rashi is not just suggesting a possible interpretation. Rashi is compelled
to address a problem in the wording of the Passuk. The difficulty that Rashi
is attempting to navigate is the wording of the Passuk, "Yosef was unable to
bear TO all those standing by him." Therefore Rashi breaks that part of the
Passuk into two parts,

1) Yosef could not bear the thought of making his disclosure now as he
planned to

2) Yosef was troubled that his brothers would be humiliated because of the
strangers who were there and would witness the BROTHERS' discomfort and
revelation of their inadequacies. 

 

Was Yosef right for changing his mind? Perhaps his first planned strategy
would have been more successful in getting them to face the realities of
their perfidy. As the events testify, they never accepted their true guilt
and, as we mentioned in previous discussions, died without forgiveness and
this led to exceedingly tragic consequences.

 

This failure lowered the noble standards and expectations of this majestic
people. It legitimized maintaining cold war feuds and not bending oneself
and HUMILIATING oneself to attain forgiveness and mollify those victims who
can only truly forgive when they are convinced of the sincere nature of the
apology and request for forgiveness. Look at the world today, have abused
children been mollified? Have victims of war and terror been appeased? Are
victims who are found deserving in our court system and I might say with
great sadness, in our Beis Din system, provided with sincere apologies and
expressions of regret?

 

Gd waited for many generations for the sons of Israel to learn these
important lessons but finally without us making these critical discoveries
and implementing changes in our manner to combat this weakness, Gd acted, as
is remembered in our liturgy, by torturing the martyrs. It is not an
everlasting mutilation that disfigures us but it is a long lasting ugliness
that we are yet to address and which must preceded and prepare the path for
the arrival of the Moshiach.

 

 

Meir Rabi

 

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Micha Berger wrote:

> The flaw is that if we really felt this line of reasoning, we wouldn't
> give the job out as a kibud. Mesadeir qedushin has to be qualified. The
> berakhos should be from people whose berakhos are more likely to
> matter. So giving these out are compliments, and thus kibudim.
> But reading the kesuvah?

The kesuvah-reader also has to be qualified - he has to be able to read
Aramaic without breaking his teeth.  Unfortunately, it seems that people
are not aware of this requirement, and too often give it to someone who,
however good he is at rabbonus or teaching, is unqualified for this job.

-- 
Zev Sero                                     May the light of Chanukah
z...@sero.name                                brighten your life

Culled from news briefs posted on Arutz-7 shortly before Shabbat began
there. Together, they helped draw a mental image of life down there.

 --

Radio Darom (Southern Radio) will go silent at 4pm, and only carry "Color
Red" sirends (missile allerts) over Shabbat. In Beer Shava, that's 97
MHz, those of us living in southern Israel probably know what frequency
to leave their radios on. (And shouldn't be reading this on Shabbat,
or at least should do me the favor of not telling me if they do.)

 -- 

Meanwhile, R' Yoram Cohen, the Chief Rabbi of Be'er Sheva reinforced the
need to observe the laws of piquach nefesh, danger to life, and their
supremacy over Shabbat observance. He told his community not to hesitate
for a moment before taking one's cell phone, driving as needed, keeping
the radio on, or whatever else is needed. Being "overly pious" is
prohibited.

 -- 

Col. Gil Shenhar gave these intstructions for minyan on Shabbat within
the range of rockets and other projectiles from Gaza:

    Within a radius of 10 kilometers from Gaza, prayers are to be held
    only inside bomb shelters.  This includes Sderot, Kfar Maimon, and
    the new homes of former Gush Katif residents in Yated and Yevul. 

    Within a radius of between 10 and 30 kilometers, prayers must be
    held in a building with a concrete roof, and with the participation
    of up to 100 people at a time.  This area includes Ashkelon, Kiryat
    Malachi, Kiryat Gat, Ofakim and Netivot. 

    Within a radius of between 30 and 40 kilometers, prayers must be
    held in a building with a concrete roof, and with the participation
    of up to 300 people at a time. This area includes Be'er Sheva,
    Ashdod, Gedera, and Yad Binyamin.

    The religious community is also advised to keep a radio tuned to the
    "Quiet Wave" near or in synagogues. Stations on the "Quiet Wave"
    broadcast silence, except for when an air raid siren occurs.

    Worshipers are advised not to congregate outside after the prayers,
    nor to bring children.

--


crafted the following prayer (see
<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129189> for the
Hebrew):

    May it be Your Will, L-rd our G-d and G-d of our forefathers, that
    You will have mercy on us and on all the residents of the south.

    Protect us in the bounty of your kindness and spread out over us
    the shelter of Your peace.

    Strengthen the arms of the fighting soldiers who protect us and give
    their souls for us.

    Protect them and guard them from all misfortune.

    Foil the plans of our haters and enemies; "Their swords shall plunge
    into their hearts and their bows shall break."

    Sovereign of the Universe, give our leaders wisdom and courage
    and strength of heart to annihilate all of our enemies, and let the
    prayer of King David, may he rest in peace, come true regarding them:
    "I shall chase after my enemies and I shall catch up to them and I
    will not return until they are destroyed." Amen.

--


this Shabbos in bomb shelters, too dangerous for the happy (if
problematic) noise of children interrupting services, saying a special
prayer pleading the A-lmighty for their safety.

How are /you/ spending Shabbos?

With prayers of peace and safety for all our people,
:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
mi...@aishdas.org        I awoke and found that life was duty.
http://www.aishdas.org   I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabindranath Tagore

CM: It has always been my understanding of the 8th ikkar as a guarantee of
siyata dishmaya throughout the generations that will insure that rov of our
seforim will be halachically valid copies of Toras Moshe, thus if we follow
the rov of our extant seforim we should not in general go wrong. So this
certainly allows for incorrect copies in our midst, but guarantees the
MESORAH long term. Thus even if in some circumstances of safek a sofer will
follow the "local" rov seforim available to him, he could still come up
with a resulting "incorrect" sefer (even though he did the best he could),
but the guarantee for the MESORAH is that in rov of these cases of doubt,
the "correct" sefer will result. This is my own understanding, I have no
specific source, so I am willing to back down if confronted with direct
authoritative contradiction, but I think this comports well in general. The
machlokes that RJA refers to, wrt molei and choser (see below), will thus
result in two variations of
  the above guarantee: 1) to the exact letter, 2) to within the allowable
  variations for molei and choser, each according to his opinion of a valid
  sefer within halacha.

KT
Chaim Manaster

RJA wrote: I think there may be a fundemental misunderstanding of the Rambam here,
which needs to be clarified.  However you understand the 8th ikkar broadly,
as being about general concepts, meaning,"semantics," in RMB's words.  It is
also explicitly about syntax (and not just syntax, but morphology as well,)
The Rambam's formulation of the ikkarim is in his first comment on the 10th
chapter of Sanhedrin in his Mishnah after the introduction.  (The ani
ma'amin which RTK so carefully parsed is a later reformulation, not the
Rambam's language at all.)  In it he says explictly (this is my translation
of R. Kapach's translation of the original Arabic, the emphasis), "EACH
LETTER which is in it has wisdom and wonders beyond words to whomsoever God
gives understanding..."  It is clear that he means this to include spelling
in the recieved Torah text, because he also paskins this way in Mishnah
Torah.  In hilkhot Sefer Torah chapter 7 halakha 11 he specifically says
that plene and defective spellings (Maleh and Chaser) pasul a Sefer Torah.
For the Rambam, the Torah text of the Ben Asher Sefer Torah IS the EXACT
Torah Moshe brought down from sinai, including spellings, and all other
versions are simply wrong, and are pasul for that reason.

The truth is, this is a makhlokes Rishonim, which made it into the Shulchan
Arukh.  The Rema mentioned earlier in the conversation follows the standard
Ashkenazi view that we don't know plene and defective spellings, and so we
do the best we can.  The Mechaber, in the same siman, follows the Rambam.
I'm not really sure how to reconcile the Rambam with the empirical evidence
that mistakes have crept into the transmission of the Torah text since
Sinai, but I think it is clear that he believes that they have not, or
rather, that Ben Asher reflects an unmistaken text, even if other texts do
have mistakes.
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