Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 384

Wed, 12 Nov 2008

• 1. Re: troubling halacha (Micha Berger)
• 2. When one is ill (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Re: troubling halacha (Zev Sero)
• 4. troubling halacha (Meir Rabi)
• 5. A troubling halacha (Joseph Kaplan)
• 6. Re: troubling halacha (Micha Berger)
• 7. Lashon Hara (Meir Rabi)
• 8. Re: When one is ill (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 9. Re: Lashon Hara (Micha Berger)
• 10. a troubling halacha (Prof. Levine)
• 11. Re: a troubling halacha (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Re: When one is ill (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Re: Gentiles in the Torah (Silverman, Philip B)

On Tue, November 11, 2008 3:34 pm, R Zev Sero wrote:
: The minhag is reconcilable with RYBS's reason too.  The longer the
: person has been dead by the time the relative hears about it, the
: easier it will be for them to accept it...

I question that assertion about the metzi'us. I would think the person
undergoes all the pain of loss PLUS the pain of not doing right by the
deceased for all those years.

I understood that to be RET's report of his mother's experience as well.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

IIRC there's a gemara that details a progression for steps when one is
ill, first praying for themselves then asking others to pray for them.
Can someone point me to where this gemara is.

KT
Joel Rich
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Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, November 11, 2008 3:34 pm, R Zev Sero wrote:
> : The minhag is reconcilable with RYBS's reason too.  The longer the
> : person has been dead by the time the relative hears about it, the
> : easier it will be for them to accept it...
> 
> I question that assertion about the metzi'us. I would think the person
> undergoes all the pain of loss PLUS the pain of not doing right by the
> deceased for all those years.
> 
> I understood that to be RET's report of his mother's experience as well.

Chazal tell us that this is the metzius,  And it's not, as one might
assume, that the *knowledge* of someone's death fades with time.
Rather, they tell us that this effect on the memory is caused by the mere
fact that the person is dead, and it doesn't happen if the person is
really still alive.  Talk about "spooky action at a distance".  I don't
understand how someone's memory and emotions can be affected by a metzius
of which he is completely unaware (i.e. the person's actual state), but
Chazal tell us that it's so.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

Does this not all sound very much like reverse engineering or drawing the
target after having shot the arrow?
This hardly posses a problem for us but from a different perspective it
probably sounds too convenient. I would think it sounds like a discussion we
may have with a conspiracy theorist of the WTC disaster for example. No
matter what we say, they will have a method of rationalizing and deflecting.
That is probably the most important distinction between Lomdus and Drush, it
is what separates the rationalists from the emotionalists.

I'm over 60 years old and have been davening in MO shuls my whole  
life.  I have also been part of MO communities my whole life and have  
come into contact many many many times with people who are going  
through aveilut for relatives.  And during that time I have seen most  
people say kaddish for relatives other than parents even if there are  
children saying kaddish for the deceased. It's my impression that the  
vast majority of people I have come in contact with in this situation  
do say kaddish, although only for 30 days.

I'm no expert in halacha and therefore cannot opine on what the  
halacha says about this.  But it seems to me that the current minhag  
in the MO community is that people say kaddish for at least 30 days  
for siblings, children and spouses even if there are children saying  
kaddish as well.  Indeed, I recall hearing (it may be an urban legend  
but I have heard it a number of times from different people) that  
RYBS said kaddish for his wife for a number of years following her  
death and when asked why he said "it's the least I can do." That,  
perhaps is the community R. Lamm was speaking about in his book. And  
unless there's an issur in such a person saying kaddish, I think it's  
an error to say that it's an *error* to say kaddish in this  
situation.  It may not be required and it may not have been the  
custom in times past, but it certainly seems to be the custom in the  
communities in which I was raised and in which I have lived for many  
years.

One last personal note.  In the past eight years my wife and I have  
sat shiva for all four of our parents, together with our brothers and  
sisters.  The thought that had circumstances required one of us to be  
in another country at the time of death and we would not have been  
told of these events and would have been deprived if sitting shiva  
together with the rest of our family (putting aside the issue of  
kaddish and male and female differences in obligation) is simply  
appalling.  If it is the halacha, I guess it's the halacha, but that  
doesn't make it any less appalling in my mind.  I therefore hope that  
there are those who say that there is more than one opinion of what  
the halacha is in such a situation.

Joseph Kaplan

On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 09:02:06AM +1100, Meir Rabi wrote:
: Does this not all sound very much like reverse engineering or drawing the
: target after having shot the arrow?

Yes, it does. Taamei hamitzvos are lessons drawn from halakhah -- very
much after the arrow is shot. One doesn't darshen halakhah from the
taam. It might be useful as a factor when choosing between two shitos or
sevaros. But only one formal halachic process actually "shot the arrow"
and the question is still unresolved.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

When Gd reports to Avraham Avinu that Sara ridiculed the suggestion that she
will bear a child, why was this not Lashon Hara?

Assuming that HKBH deemed AA responsible for Sara's failing and therefore
must be informed of his own failing and his need to correct that by rebuking
Sara; it appears that the report could have nevertheless been worded without
reference to Sara describing Avraham as the source of the problem. Thus;
"And Sara laughed to herself saying, 'Now that I am worn out will I be
rejuvenated?'. And Gd said to Avraham, 'Why did Sara ridicule this by
saying, 'I cant have a child I am too old.'? Is Gd unable to do as He
pleases? Next year I shall return and Sara will have a baby.'"

So there is no need for HKBH to report Sara saying that Avraham is too old
to have children.

Unless it is reported LeToEles, namely in order for us to learn that we may
distort the truth in order to preserve peace. Is this a new type of ToEles
not mentioned in the ChCh?

Berachos (55b):The third commenced and said: If a man falls ill, the 
first day he should not tell anyone, so that he should not have bad 
luck; but after that he may tell. So when Raba fell ill, on the first 
day he did not tell anyone, but after that he said to his attendant: Go 
and announce that Raba is ill. Whoever loves him, let him pray for him, 
and whoever hates him, let him rejoice over him; for it is written: 
Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thy heart be glad when 
he stumbleth, lest the Lord see it and it displease Him and He turn away 
His wrath from him.26

Rich, Joel wrote:
>
> IIRC there's a gemara that details a progression for steps when one is 
> ill, first praying for themselves then asking others to pray for 
> them.  Can someone point me to where this gemara is.
>
Daniel Eidensohn
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On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 01:13:35PM +1100, Meir Rabi wrote:
: When Gd reports to Avraham Avinu that Sara ridiculed the suggestion that she
: will bear a child, why was this not Lashon Hara?
: 
: Assuming that HKBH deemed AA responsible for Sara's failing and therefore
: must be informed of his own failing and his need to correct that by rebuking
: Sara; it appears that the report could have nevertheless been worded without
: reference to Sara describing Avraham as the source of the problem...

And to Avraham, it was worded that way. This shift from "va'adoni
zaqein" to "va'ani zakanti" is often discussed in the context of
emes vs sheqer, tact and onaas devarim.

The question is why we had to have the original version of her words in
the Chumash. This ties in to our discussion of how Tanakh and medrash
portray the historic greats, and what lesson -- if any -- that has for
contemporary biographers / hagiographers.

The to'eles could be our learning from Sarah imeinu's error something we
couldn't learn if we didn't learn it about Sarah in particular. Would
the CC have pasqened lehatir? I don't think so. But here's a thought
I found intriguing: Presumably her neshamah gave reshus before matan
Torah, anyway.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nearly all men can stand adversity,
mi...@aishdas.org        but if you want to test a man's character,
http://www.aishdas.org   give him power.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      -Abraham Lincoln

>
>Rather it seems to me that the reason for kaddish to be said by all 
>the sons, and only the sons, is simply because that's the way the 
>minhag was originally done. Not because of any reason which has yet 
>been mentioned in this post.
>
>Akiva Miller

WADR, may I strongly suggest that you get a hold of a copy of 
Mourning in Halacha by Rabbi Chaim Binyamin Goldberg. 
(http://www.artscroll.com/Books/moup.html )

There you will be able to read all about Kaddish, who should say it, 
when it is to be said, etc.


Yitzchok Levine  
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                Rather it seems to me that the reason for kaddish to be
said by all the sons, and only the sons, is simply because that's the
way the minhag was originally done. Not because of any reason which has
yet been mentioned in this post.
                
                Akiva Miller


        WADR, may I strongly suggest that you get a hold of a copy of
Mourning in Halacha by Rabbi Chaim Binyamin Goldberg. (
http://www.artscroll.com/Books/moup.html
<http://www.artscroll.com/Books/moup.html>  )
        
        There you will be able to read all about Kaddish, who should say
it, when it is to be said, etc. 
        
        

        Yitzchok Levine   

        ================ 

        I would have assumed the reason is that the source story by R'
Akiva was teaching the son rather than R' Akiva doing it himself. 

        KT
        Joel Rich 

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Rich, Joel wrote:
>
> IIRC there's a gemara that details a progression for steps when one is

> ill, first praying for themselves then asking others to pray for them.

> Can someone point me to where this gemara is.
>

Berachos (55b):The third commenced and said: If a man falls ill, the
first day he should not tell anyone, so that he should not have bad
luck; but after that he may tell. So when Raba fell ill, on the first
day he did not tell anyone, but after that he said to his attendant: Go
and announce that Raba is ill. Whoever loves him, let him pray for him,
and whoever hates him, let him rejoice over him; for it is written: 
Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thy heart be glad when
he stumbleth, lest the Lord see it and it displease Him and He turn away
His wrath from him.26
Daniel Eidensohn
====================
Thanks to R'DE.  
I was wondering if this is brought down anywhere in practice.  I know
that praying for oneself is as well as praying for others but I don't
recall seeing the stages as above.  I'm asking since in a local shul it
has become common practice to say tehillim for "a member of the
community". When I queried about who it was, I was told that they wanted
to remain anonymous. It seemed to me that this makes any prayer or
tehillim less effective,  Thoughts on these competing priorities or my
assumption on value?

KT
Joel Rich
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Micha shared some words from a great sefer:

 

> In a VIN editorial, I saw the following quote from RASoloveitchik's
> "Logic of the Heart, Logic of the Mind":
 
  >  From the standpoint of the Torah, there can be no distinction
between
  >  one human being and another on the basis or race or color. Any
  >  discrimination shown to a human being on account of the color of
  >  his skin constitutes loathsome barbarity. It must be conceded that
  >  the Torah recognized a distinction between a Jew and a non-Jew.
This
  >  distinction, however, is not based upon race, origin or color, but
  >  rather upon k'dushah, the holiness endowed by having been given and
  >  having accepted the Torah. Furthermore, the distinction between Jew
  >  and non-Jew does not involve any concept of inferiority but is
based
  >  primarily upon the unique and special burdens that are incumbent
  >  upon Jews.

 

Since R' Soloveitchik used the word 'primarily', I would gather that he
would add other, less primary, distinctions.

Such as k'dushah, which was stated in the prior sentence. (But wait,
maybe that's /not/ less primary, so I'm a little confused by the
wording.) Does R' Soloveitchik include any /other/ distinctions?

 

All the best,

 

Philip 

 



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