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Volume 25: Number 290

Tue, 12 Aug 2008

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "Eli Turkel" <eliturkel@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 22:45:41 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] halakhot of ecology


With the emphasis on "pointless".  Remember that your criticism of
my position was that I'm "defining bal tashchis in a way such that
by definition no one would want to do it".  Once you agree that it's
only about pointless destruction then I think you've conceded my
position.  "Pointless" is simply another way of saying "something
that by definition no one would want to do"; if one has a reason to
want to do it, then by definition it isn't pointless.>>

The question is what you mean by "no one would want to do it"
We live in an era of plenty. If there is a little piece of the steak,
chicken or vegetables left then we throw it out.  In previous
generations it would have been saved.
At weddings especially smorgasbord people take huge portions
and most of it is thrown out.

R. Wosner has a teshuva in which he complains of the huge
amount of food thrown out after catered affairs. In fact in
Israel today there are organizations that collect the left overs
from several halls and distribute them to the poor.

Instead of Zev's comparison one could compare it to the halachot
of sheviit. There too one is not allowed to throw out usable
shemitta food. That is usually interped that one can throw out
small pieces of an orange attached to the peel but not a whole
section of the orange that one no longer wishes to eat.

In fact one the rabbanin in our town said that he uses the occasion
of shemitta to teach his family the value of food. One should only
put on one's plate what he reasonably thinks he can eat rather
than filling the plate and throwing out the leftovers

-- 
Eli Turkel



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Message: 2
From: "Doron Beckerman" <beck072@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 22:53:02 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Tisha B'Av on Sunday


RSF writes:

>> I have a question about when 9 Av falls out on Sunday, as it did this
year.

 The halacha is that the fast starts at shkiah. Why is it that we're allowed
to fast on Shabbos for 9 Av, especially when Shabbos is docheh 9 Av? Since
Bein Hashmashot is a safeik, why don't we see safeik d'oraita l'chumrah in
the case of oneg Shabbos, and safeik d'rabbanan l'hakeil in the case of
Tisha B'av? <<

1) Oneg Shabbos is not D'Oraysa, but MiDivrei Neviim.
2) Missing a few minutes of ability to eat is not a Bittul Oneg Shabbos and
it isn't fasting - you've eaten all day.
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Message: 3
From: "Gil Winokur" <gilwinokur@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:29:16 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Tisha B'Av on Sunday


AIUI, during that last hour of Shabbos, we do not publicly show avelus, so
we wear shoes, sit on chairs, sing zmiros, etc.  But simply not eating for
an hour is not such a public display.  It is prohibited to fast on Shabbos,
but one is not required to eat every minute of Shabbos.  When one has been
eating all Shabbos, not doing so for the last hour is not considered
"fasting on Shabbos" - it's just not eating and is not considered a
detraction from Shabbos.
Gil Winokur
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Message: 4
From: Cantor Wolberg <cantorwolberg@cox.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:36:12 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Tisha B'Av on Sunday


Why is it that we're allowed to fast on Shabbos for 9 Av, especially  
when Shabbos is docheh 9 Av?

The fact is that you are not fasting on Shabbos. You may be beginning  
the fast at the end of Shabbos
and where there is a safeik d'oraita regarding whether it is even  
Shabbos or not, but assuming it is Shabbos,
you've already had your three meals for Shabbos, so how can you say  
you are fasting on Shabbos? You're
fasting really on Sunday which begins Motzei Shabbos. It's not like a  
safeik for a bris, where Shabbos would
count as a whole day.  Just my 3 cents (inflation).
ri
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Message: 5
From: Yitzhak Grossman <celejar@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 18:15:12 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Can you build a community around Halakhic Man?


On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:09:52 -0400
Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

...

> Then RCBrisker was not a halachic man. There was an agunah in Brisk,
> and neither he nor the dayan knew how to pasqen. He asked the dayan to
> write RYESpektor for a pesaq, and that he should telegram back a one word
> answer. RCB was afraid that if he knew the sevara, he could argue both
> sides and reopen the question! For that matter, that was RCB's explanation

I, too, have heard this story.  Anyone know a source?

> Micha Berger             Man is equipped with such far-reaching vision,

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat




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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 18:44:43 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Can you build a community around Halakhic Man?


On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 06:15:12PM -0400, Yitzhak Grossman wrote:
: I, too, have heard this story.  Anyone know a source?

RARR's "The Rav", vol I, p 227 (#6.02) "A One-Word Answer". He precedes
the text with:
> Related by the Rav to his ZTalmud class when the author was a student
> at Yeshiva University. Cf. Rabbi Shlomo Yosef Zevin, Ishim ve-Shitot
> (Tel Aviv: Bitan ha-Sefer, 1952], pp. 58-59 [1]

> 1 The version related by Rabbi Shlomo Yosef Zevin, based on the
> memoir of Rabbi Meir Ber-Ilan (Berlin) is slightly different in
> details, but the theme is the same. Also see Ephraim Shimoff, Rabbi
> Isaac Elchanan Spektor: Life and Letters (New York: Yeshiva
> University, 1959), pp. 84-85.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The mind is a wonderful organ
micha@aishdas.org        for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org   the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 7
From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 22:34:02 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The halakhos of ecology


R' Zev Sero wrote:
> A practical example: empty drink bottles, which carry a
> 5 cent deposit. It's not worth my while to take them back
> to the shop for a refund. I can either throw them in the
> garbage, or put them out in a bag of their own, so that
> those for whom it is worth while can take them. Bal
> Tashchis would guide me to do the latter.

Oh chaval, what a shame! You have such a great example, which really
highlights both sides of this issue. It could have resolved the question,
but you wrote "guide" instead of "forbid" or "obligate".

It seems to me that IN THEORY we all agree about the definition of Bal Tashchis. The actual point of contention is on the definition of "worthwhile".

Sure, Bal Tashchis *guides* me towards leaving the deposit bottles in a
place where others can take them. But that also requires some effort, and
maybe I do not consider that amount of effort to be "worth my while".
What's the bottom line? Does Bal Tashchis obligate me to save the deposit
bottles for their value? OR does Bal Tashchis obligate me to conserve my
energy and not go to frivolous efforts for a tiny gain?

I am not a posek, and I do not know the answer. But I suspect that the
answer to this question - like many others - depends very much on the
individual. Just like the definition of "muktzeh machmas chisaron kis" is
highly dependent on the economics of the situation, so too here. A person
who is more wealthy, or more pressed for time, should probably not waste
his time and effort on the few pennies to be gotten from the deposit
bottles. Another person would be wrong for wasting those pennies. Then
again (going back to RZS's "guide me"), there could be strong mussar
reasons for even the first person to harness the value of the bottles.

(For what it's worth, I have already written (Mail-Jewish 42:4) of my
wife's psak, that on certain occasions, Bal Tashchis requires her to
discard leftovers, rather than leave them in a place where I might fress on
them.)

Akiva Miller

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Message: 8
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 18:12:45 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] halakhot of ecology


Eli Turkel wrote:

> The question is what you mean by "no one would want to do it"
> We live in an era of plenty. If there is a little piece of the steak,
> chicken or vegetables left then we throw it out.

Yes, because its value is tiny, and by the time you want it again
it won't be good any more.

It's also simply not worth saving.  Even the cost of the Glad wrap to
put over it, and the effort of putting in the fridge, and of washing
the plate in which it was stored, is more than the food itself is
worth.  Saving it is foolish.


>  In previous generations it would have been saved.

In previous generations the food itself would have cost more,
and therefore it would have cost more to replace, i.e. the food
one will eat next meal instead.  So one would finish it next
meal even if it didn't taste so good any more, so long as it wasn't
positively unhealthy.  One wouldn't bother with Glad wrap, and the
effort of washing the plate was minimal compared to the cost of the
food.

Also in previous generations people would lechatchila prepare less,
so that there would be fewer leftovers, thus denying themselves the
pleasure of knowing that there's more than enough to eat.



> At weddings especially smorgasbord people take huge portions
> and most of it is thrown out.

Once the food is out on the tables, if it's not eaten it has to
be thrown out.  Who would take it?

 
> R. Wosner has a teshuva in which he complains of the huge
> amount of food thrown out after catered affairs. In fact in
> Israel today there are organizations that collect the left overs
> from several halls and distribute them to the poor.

Not from the tables.  They get leftovers from the kitchen, that
never went out.  But what went out to the tables is thrown out
because nobody wants it.  No ani is going to willingly eat the
leftovers from your plate, and no responsible soup kitchen is
going to accept food that's been out where anyone could have done
anything to it.

 
> Instead of Zev's comparison one could compare it to the halachot
> of sheviit. There too one is not allowed to throw out usable
> shemitta food. That is usually interped that one can throw out
> small pieces of an orange attached to the peel but not a whole
> section of the orange that one no longer wishes to eat.
> 
> In fact one the rabbanin in our town said that he uses the occasion
> of shemitta to teach his family the value of food. One should only
> put on one's plate what he reasonably thinks he can eat rather
> than filling the plate and throwing out the leftovers

Sounds good, but I disagree with the lesson.  For one thing, one
should always leave shirayim - "achalnu vehotarnu kidvar Hashem";
"uma shehotarnu yihyeh livracha".  But more than that, it imbues
food with a spiritual significance more than its economic value,
and I don't think that has a valid basis.  Perot shevi'it have
kedusha; ordinary food has no more kedusha than an ordinary scrap
of paper or screw or plastic bag.

The bottom line is that reasonable people do things for reasons.
If you and I and everyone we know does something, it stands to reason
that it isn't pointless, or we wouldn't do it.  And if you ask
yourself the reason why you do it, it won't be hard to explain.
What you're trying to do here is the equivalent of squaring the
circle.  You point at something we do, assert that it is pointless,
and then say the fact that we do it shows that we do pointless
things and we shouldn't.  I say the fact that we do it shows that
it isn't pointless.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas



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Message: 9
From: "Simon Montagu" <simon.montagu@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:28:42 -0700
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] kenignaot


On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 1:49 AM, Simon Krysl <skrysl@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
> I am writing in the hope for a possible insight on perhaps a technical -
> but to me no less perplexing - question. The Kitzur Shulkhan Arukh (126.4),
> based on Magen Avraham 224.3, prohibits attending "animal shows" presented
> by goyim, as well as dances and other joyful occasions, as moshavei leicim.
> R. Avrohom Davis translates "kenignaot" as "animal shows" which, I assume,
> would concern circuses and similar, yet an explanatory note ( in the text of
> the Kitzur itself?) in the Hebrew explicates kenignaot as "ceid hayot", that
> is, hunts. (I do not find any etymology or explanation of the word
> "kenignaot" elsewhere.) That seems to be a difference: can anyone help
> understanding it? Is it because we understand, hunting as halachically
> problematic (while not prohibited) for different reasons?
>

I think "tzeid hayot" in this context should be understood as entertainments
that simulate hunting, as in the Roman circus, rather than actual hunting on
the one hand, or the modern circus on the other.

Jastrow gives the Greek "kynegion" as the etymology of kenignaot -- see
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=
Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2360851
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Message: 10
From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:08:09 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] kenignaot


R' Simon Krysl wrote:
> The Kitzur Shulkhan Arukh (126.4), based on Magen Avraham
> 224.3, prohibits attending "animal shows" presented by
> goyim, as well as dances and other joyful occasions, as
> moshavei leicim. R. Avrohom Davis translates "kenignaot"
> as "animal shows" which, I assume, would concern circuses
> and similar, yet an explanatory note ( in the text of the
> Kitzur itself?) in the Hebrew explicates kenignaot as
> "ceid hayot", that is, hunts. (I do not find any etymology
> or explanation of the word "kenignaot" elsewhere.) That
> seems to be a difference: can anyone help understanding
> it? Is it because we understand, hunting as halachically
> problematic (while not prohibited) for different reasons?

I have, I think, a pretty well-established reputation on these pages for
highlighting the need for accurate definitions of words. But I think that
"kenignaot" might be a case where this can be taken too far. "Kol hamosif
gorea", and in this case I think that the effort to define a specific word
will tend to obscure the halacha being discussed.

It is evident to me that the Kitzur is giving *examples* of moshavei
leitzim, *all* of which are to be avoided. He is not specifying certain
moshavei letzim to avoid, with the implication that others are okay. It is
also evident to me, from context, that the concern has nothing to do with
hunting, but with the moshav leitzim. As the Kitzur writes in that same
paragraph: "It is assur to go even to kenignaot of Jews, because it is a
moshav leitzim."

That's why I feel that an accurate definition of "kenignaot" is
unnecessary. If the Kitzur was saying that "If it's not a kenigna that it
is okay", then of course we'd want a good translation. But that's not
what's happening. It's only an example. Whether kenignaot are circuses or
hunts, either way, they're both moshavei leitzim, and both assur.

(OTOH, one could argue that it is a kiyum (chiyuv?) of Talmud Torah to
understand every word of the Kitzur, in which case one *must* find an
explanation of this word, and I'd have no objection to that. I just don't
think that my understanding of the Halacha L'masseh suffers from the lack
of this word.)

Akiva Miller

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Message: 11
From: "Eli Turkel" <eliturkel@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 02:11:55 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] ecology


<<Not from the tables.  They get leftovers from the kitchen, that
never went out. >>

If you order more than you can eat it goes out from the kitchen to
the table to the waste basket

Sorry I still agree with my rabbi that our generation needs to learn
more about the value of food and not throwing it out but using
it carefully as we learn from hilchot shemitta.
I agree that halachically there is a difference because of
the kedusha but the moral of shemitta is more general

-- 
Eli Turkel



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Message: 12
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 19:33:25 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] ecology


Eli Turkel wrote:
> <<Not from the tables.  They get leftovers from the kitchen, that
> never went out. >>
> 
> If you order more than you can eat it goes out from the kitchen to
> the table to the waste basket

When do you control the quantity of what you order?  The restaurant
or caterer provides a set portion.  And if it's too small for most
people they get complaints.  Also, the satisfaction of having enough
on your plate that you can leave something over is also worth
something, and is far better than the disappointment of a too-small
portion (again, leaving over is seen in Torah as a positive thing).



> Sorry I still agree with my rabbi that our generation needs to learn
> more about the value of food

The value of food is exactly what it costs.  Ascribing it a higher
value than that is pure mysticism, and needs a makor.


> and not throwing it out but using
> it carefully as we learn from hilchot shemitta.
> I agree that halachically there is a difference because of
> the kedusha but the moral of shemitta is more general

Is it?  Where is this written?   And what lesson do we learn from
the mitzvah to destroy notar?  Why couldn't the Torah give us an
extra day to eat the Pesach, the Todah, or the Eil Nazir?  How
about the fact that *every* korban Pesach has notar, no matter how
frugal the owners, not just because lambs and households only come
in certain sizes, but because the marrow in the bones can't be got
at, because one isn't allowed to break them.  So the Torah forces
us to leave over good marrow, and then orders us to burn it.
I don't claim there's a moral to be learned from that; I'm happy with
"kach ala birtzono" -- notar must be wasted and perot shvi'it must
be conserved.  But you do claim that we learn a moral from shmita, so
you must deal with the counterexample of notar.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas


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