Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 27

Sun, 20 Jan 2008

• 1. Re: Roast lamb (from areivim) (Richard Wolpoe)
• 2. Re: [Areivim] Kol B'Ishah and Halachic methodology (Michael Makovi)
• 3. Re: Fasting on YK (Michael Makovi)
• 4. Re: Love of gerim for each other (Michael Makovi)
• 5. Yisro "The Minyan of Commandments" (Richard Wolberg)
• 6. Re: The Gaon/Medicine (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: The Gaon/Medicine (Richard Wolpoe)
• 8. Shabbos Elevator Pitch (Rich, Joel)

On Jan 17, 2008 4:36 PM, saul mashbaum <smash52@netvision.net.il> wrote:

>  This minhag is the subject of OCh 476. The MB there indicates that one
> should not use meat which was  cooked and then roasted (even pan roasted) at
> the seder, but one may use meat which was roasted and then cooked.
>
> Saul Mashbaum
>
Tangential Nitpick:
Pan roasted is considered cooked and NOT roasted at all in YD. IOW For all
halachic purposes it is bishul mamash not zli   Forbidding a pot roast
outside the Mikdash just because it SOUNDS like it is roasted makes no sense
to me.


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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> This summer, in preparation for returning to secular college, I did quite a
> comprehensive study of hilchos tznius.  My conclusions were similar to some
> of his - that the halacha of "tzarich l'hisracheik min hanashim meod meod"
> is based on a totally different societal basis, one where men and women by
> default were entirely separate, and any contact between the sexes was
> dangerous.  Nowadays, when society is in any case so mixed, I don't think
> the halacha expects me (or wants me) to be anti-social and davka avoid
> sitting at a table where a girl is sitting.  (More on that at another time,
> maybe.)

In Equality Lost, Rabbi Henkin comes to this EXACT conclusion. He
quotes the Gemara that one of the rabbis would carry a bride on his
shoulder at a wedding and respond he was of such a level that it
didn't affect him. Then, the Maharsha (I think; it was Maran haRav
someone) says that this works not only for an individual, but also a
society: when the entire community or society has greater interaction
between the sexes, they become inured and distance is no longer
necessary. (Rabbi Henkin adds that this does not apply to explicit
asurim, such as showing too much skin. He notes the misunderstanding
of the Aruch haShulchan: the AH says that since women are often
without a hair-covering, men are inured and can say Shema around them;
the AH does NOT say that it is mutar to go without a hair-covering.)

Rabbi Henkin makes another important caveat: he says he is not trying
to trailblaze new heterim, but only seeking to justify, post-facto,
current practices.

Something else occurs to me: in Pirkei Avot we learn not to have too
much sicha with women. Many commentators comment on the wife part of
the Mishna and say it only means don't have trivial conversation with
her, but meaningful conversation is perfectly allowed (Rav Hirsch on
Avot for example says the word "sicha" means davka inane
conversation). I'm not sure if these commentators extend this heter to
the earlier part of the Mishna, regarding a stam woman. But it seems
to me that since the Mishna is speaking about (a) stam women (b) your
wife (c) kal vachomer another man's wife, whatever heterim apply to
(b) should also apply to (a) and even (c) (because of dayyo). Thus, it
should seem that meaningful conversation with a stam woman about
serious topics, should be completely mutar.

Regarding the Pirkei Avot about speaking divrei Torah at a meal, Rav
Hirsch there says that it doesn't mean davka words of explicit Torah,
but rather ANY meaningful conversation about a serious topic. He says
that whenever one talks about a secular topic that has to do with
living a good (= Torah) lifestyle b'klal, then this topic is
considered Torah, even though technically it isn't a topic of Torah at
all. Does anyone else notice a parallel with TIDE?

Mikha'el Makov

On Jan 18, 2008 5:34 AM, kennethgmiller@juno.com
<kennethgmiller@juno.com> wrote:
> R' Yitzhak Grossman brought several sources and then wrote:
> > The principle is that I am not obligated to suffer in order
> > to prevent hilul Shabbos on behalf of a holeh she'yesh bo
> > sakkanah; one could therefor argue that a husband who
> > really minded missing YK prayers would not be obligated to
> > miss them in order to save his wife from the necessity of
> > eating.
>
> I think RYG is making a very good point, but I suspect that it might only apply when talking about a person and his neighbor. If the topic of the question is a man and his wife, then I'd hope that RYG's presumption is that the wife does not mind eating on YK. Or at least, that the wife would not mind eating as much as her husband would mind missing shul.
>
> My point is that -- depending on the personalities involved -- it could easily be the case that the husband would not get much tzaar from having to help his wife at home, whereas the wife might get a great deal of tzaar from having to eat on YK. In such a case, I suggest that despite what RYG wrote, the husband WOULD be obligated to miss shul in order to save his wife from the necessity of eating.
>
> On the other hand, one could ask: If Akiva Miller is correct, then why wouldn't it also apply between a man and his neighbor? If my neighbor would suffer over the chillul shabbos that is being done for him, maybe I *should* be obligated to go out of my way for him, so that my small tzaar will save him from a greater tzaar? After all, doesn't "V'Ahavta L'Rayacha Kamocha" teach that I should treat my neighbor's tzaar as seriously as my own?
>
> If one would ask that, this is what I'd answer: But the halacha is in fact the way RYG wrote; I *don't* have to go so far to help my neighbor. But I *do* have to go that far to help my spouse.
>
> Akiva Miller


Maybe a person *should* undergo some tzaar for his neighbor, but
doesn't *have to*, because perhaps it is difficult to codify how much
tzaar (quantitatively) a person has to go through? For example, if a
person is required to bring his food to his sick neighbor on Shabbat
so that the neighbor doesn't have to cook (permissibly), then we have
to ask, how far away is a neighbor? Do I have to carry a pot of
chulent literally across the town? Or a neighbor only someone in the
same street/block/courtyard?

Or maybe someone else can think of a reason why it might be good but
not obligatory? I am sure that surely everyone agrees that to bring my
food to the sick neighbor so that he doesn't have to cook, is a rather
nice thing to do, with or without a chiyuv.

Likewise, I wonder how many wives would be happy with a husband who
chose shul over staying home and helping her to not have to eat.

Mikha'el Makovi

> There is a cryptic statement in Pesachim regarding the love of gerim for
> each other. Can't find any commentary. Suggestions would be appreciated
>
> *
> *
>
> *Pesachim[1] <#_ftn1>(113b): *Our Rabbis taught: There are three who
> love each other. They are gerim, slaves and ravens.

The ger part and the slave part is simple. The raven part I don't understand.

Gerim and slaves: a person loves those in the same situation as
himself. A fellow ger (or BT, or whatever) knows what his fellow is
going through. It makes sense that slaves would likewise have empathy
for each other.

As for ravens, I'm going to guess that somewhere else in the Gemara,
ravens are famous for something, or maybe ravens were part of some
sort of popular folktale or proverb back then, or something similar,
that would explain why ravens love each other more than do hippos or
kangaroos.

Mikha'el Makovi

The Torah states regarding the preparation for receiving the Torah at  
Mount Sinai: "And the Israelites encamped there near the  
mountain." (Exodus 19:2)

The Hebrew word for "encamped" is "vayichan." What is particularly  
interesting is that the second time "vayichan" is used it is in the  
singular form; the grammatically correct form would be  
"vayachanu" (which is used the first time in the sentence). What do we  
learn from the word "vayichan"?

Rashi tells us that the singular form is used to tell us that they  
encamped "as one person with a single desire." From here Rabbi  
Yeruchem Levovitz commented that we see that the love of our fellow  
man is a prerequisite for accepting the Torah.

Rabbi Yitzchok of Vorki noted that the word "vayichan" besides meaning  
"encamped" also comes from the word "khain," which means "grace" or  
"favor." That is, the people found favor in the eyes of one another  
and therefore found favor in the eyes of the Almighty.

When you just see the faults and shortcomings of another person, you  
become distant from him or her. However, when you see the good and  
positive traits in other people, you become closer to them. This unity  
is a fundamental requirement for accepting the Torah and certainly for  
keeping it properly.

How is this developed? We find in the book Nachal Kidumim (by the  
great scholar, R' Chaim Yosef Dovid Azulai, known as the Chida) that  
togetherness between people is possible only when there is humility.  
When the Israelites came to Mount Sinai, which is the symbol of  
humility, they internalized this attribute.

When you have humility, you do not feel a need to gain power over  
others or feel above them by focusing on their faults. When you have  
the trait of humility you can allow yourself to see the good in  
others. The traits of love for others, seeing the good in them, and  
having humility go hand in hand. By growing in these traits you make  
yourself into a more elevated person who is worthy of receiving the  
Torah.

Based on Growth Through Torah by Rabbi Z. Pliskin

The following was done just for fun, so those who do not appreciate  
g?matria, feel free to ignore.

The g'matria of Noach is 58. The word "khain" [58] means grace or  
favor (which Noah found).

  The g?matria of Sarah is 505.  The word ?V?la-a-voseinu? [505] means  
?and to our forefathers? (or patriarchs). Sarah was the wife of the  
first patriarch.'

The g?matria of Yisro is 616. The word ?HaTorah? [616] means ?The  
Torah.? Yisro was the father-in-law of the most important prophet who  
received ?The Torah.? Also, Rashi informs us that Yisro had seven  
names - Re'uel, Yeser, Yisro, Chovev, Chever, Keini, and Putiel. He  
was called Yeser (addition) for he advised Moshe in the matter of the  
judicial system, thereby adding on to "The Torah." When he converted  
and fulfilled the Mitzvos the letter "Vav" was added to his name,  
hence the name Yisro.

The g?matria of Korach is 308. The word ?kivro? [308] means ?his  
burial place? (or his grave).  Korach talked himself right into ?his  
burial place.?

The g?matria of Balak is 132. The word ?avono? [132] means ?his  
iniquity.? In thinking of Balak, we can only think of ?his  
iniquity? (in the collective sense).

R Wolberg

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	Here or on the blogs there has been discussion that the Gaon's
father told him not to study medicine because then he would have to heal
people (take time away from learning)
	
	I was just listening to a shiur from R' HS where he said the
gaon's shita 


For hismelf or for everyone?f
 

	was that one did not go to doctors but prayed for a refuah.

	KT
	Joel Rich
	


-- 
 ====================================
AIUI   <http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/>   for all.
KT
Joel Rich 
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On Jan 19, 2008 7:22 PM, Rich, Joel <JRich@sibson.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>  Here or on the blogs there has been discussion that the Gaon's father
> > told him not to study medicine because then he would have to heal people
> > (take time away from learning)
> >
> > I was just listening to a shiur from R' HS where he said the gaon's
> > shita
> >
>
> For himself or for everyone?f
>
>
> >  was that one did not go to doctors but prayed for a refuah.
> >
> > KT
> > Joel Rich
> >
>
Then how doees he explai v'rapo yerapeh?
Why be mehallel Shabbos for piku'ach nefesh
Why not just daven?

If this construction is true it goes against  a large body of Talmud and
Poskim.
OTOH if it was for his own personal health, perhaps he was on the madreiga
for davening to work.
OTOH if he was recommending this for the masses it seems dangerously
simplistic to expect everyone to daven for good health - Lehavdil Jewish
Science?


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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R' Gil recently posted on Hirhurim :
 "R. Yaakov horowitz's latest column quotes a woman who describes the
beauty of Shabbos in that it is 1) a time to be with family, 2) a time
to unwind and 3) grow closer to God. I believe that only two of these
three reasons have support from medieval authorities.

R. Sa'adia Ga'on (Emunos Ve-Dei'os 3:2) lists the following logical
reasons for Shabbos and holidays, which he believes is generally about
obedience to God but has secondary reasons as well
1.	to rest from work 
2.	to spend time acquiring wisdom 
3.	for extended prayer 
4.	to meet with others to study religion
I find it noteworthy that he did not include in his list anything about
family gatherings and spending time together. He did add "and other
similar things" but I find it farfetched to think he meant spending time
with one's family. (Note also his distinction between acquiring wisdom
and studying religion, which I think might be sanction for studying
philosophy on Shabbos.)

The Sefer Ha-Chinukh (no. 32) suggests that Shabbos is about
strengthening traditional Jewish faith in God and Creation. This may be
my ignorance, but I am not aware of any medieval authority who claims
that Shabbos is about family bonding  <SNIP>."

I was listening to a shiur by R' D' Gottlleib (Shomrei Emunah) in which
he quoted R'YBS in the 4th volume of the Meosra Journal where he quoted
the Yerushalmi in shabbat (1:3) as including shabbat in the din of
chetzyo lachem chetzyo lashem (it does exist! The seemingly
contradictory psukim are "shabbat hu lashem" and "atzeret lashem
elokecha"). R' YBS used this to explain why the Rambam used the language
of arvit, shacharit and mincha as the time for shalosh seudot (rather
than erev...) - since tfila is the primary lashem it must be balanced by
eating - the primary lachem.

KT
Joe Rich


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ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
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