Avodah Mailing List

Volume 24: Number 27

Thu, 25 Oct 2007

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:28:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] An-im Zemiros


On Tue, October 23, 2007 9:56 pm, Richard Wolberg wrote:
: Also, a question regarding the birkas Kohanim. The onesh for looking
: at the
: kohanim was that one would go blind (chas v'shalom).  Now what was the
: punishment if one violated looking at the kohanim a second time?

Was it an onesh, or a causal connection? Hashem made His Presence
manifest in a way that made it clear He was greater than the sun. Such
brightness blinds.

But to answer your question... Blind people tend not to look at too
many things. What second time?

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv




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Message: 2
From: "Rich, Joel" <JRich@sibson.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:24:47 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Rambam/Support


 
The recent article in Tradition got me thinking in relation to a
discussion on Hirhurim about Doctors.  Let's assume for now that  the
Rambam learned full time and only went to work for Parnassa after his
brother died (we need not get into whether this was Yissachar/Zevulun
according to R' Moshe or "tzedakka"), why did he choose medicine which
seems to have led him to spend much less time on limud torah then he
might have spent had he  worked for parnassa at another profession?

KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 3
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:47:20 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] An-im Zemiros


Micha Berger wrote:

> But to answer your question... Blind people tend not to look at too
> many things. What second time?

It's a joke.  The way I heard it was that the first time you look
you go blind in one eye; the second time you go blind in the other
eye.  And the third time you look, you die.

AFAIK the only genuine source for anything like that only says that
looking at the Cohanim's hands causes general weakness and ill health,
not anything specifically ophthalmological.

Al pi nigleh the reason not to look at the Cohanim, or at anything
else, is so as not to be distracted from hearing the bracha.  It has
long seemed to me that going under a talles with several people,
including screaming kids, is *less* conducive to focusing on the bracha
than forgoing the talles and just closing ones eyes.   Also, a talles
with several people under it gets hot and stuffy, especially if the
Cohanim sing at great length between words, and by the end one is
waiting impatiently for it to be over, which is not what it's about.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas



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Message: 4
From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 15:41:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] An-im Zemiros


On Wed, October 24, 2007 2:47 pm, R Zev Sero wrote:
: Al pi nigleh the reason not to look at the Cohanim, or at anything
: else, is so as not to be distracted from hearing the bracha....

I thought it was so as not to be mevayesh the kehunah by pointing out
the lack of hashra'as haShechinah. Whereas in the days of bayis
rishon, "lo yir'ani adam vachai" like processes prevented the eye to
withstand the light of the Shechinah.

The kavod issue is implied in Chagiga 16a, which puts it together with
staring at the nasi or at a rainbow as being bad (but not terminally
so!) for eyesight.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv




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Message: 5
From: "Menachem Posner" <menachemp@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 19:55:26 GMT
Subject:
[Avodah] Wrapping Tefillin in or out


Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer <ygbechhofer@gmail.com> wrote:
  Has anyone ever seen a reason why Ashkenaz wraps tefillin coming in 
while Sfard wraps going out?  ------------------------
 
This is discussed in "Minhag Yisroel Torah Hi" which I don't have access to at the moment.


_____________________________________________________________
Need local Internet advertising for your business? Click Here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifVn2EGIfQIiNJdkR77S16LUd05FaRfWYkNfsSNzGrCPWObI/
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Message: 6
From: "Silverman, Philip B" <Philip.Silverman@bcbsga.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 15:33:16 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] What did they learn in the yeshiva of Shem and


  
>> Phil: A question to ask the gift-givers: "What would you do if
Ardeban (or 
Governor Crist) sent you a wreath in return?"
 
> R' Sero: 1) What's wrong with a wreath?
2) The fact is that Rebbi wasn't worried about anything like that.
Which would seem to be proof enough that no such worry is necessary.

 

(First, I truly apologize for spelling your surname Zero instead of
Sero. It was an honest case of birdwatching. Er, I mean word-botching.)

1.	What's wrong with a wreath? Well, in my town, if I were to put a
wreath on my door (as Governor Crist put a mezuzah on his door), I'd
have a whole lotta 'splainin' to do to my Jewish neighbors. My Christian
neighbors would start asking me when I received the light. (Not sure
about what a wreath meant in Rebbe's time, but the gist of my question
was not about a wreath per se, but a symbol distinctive to another
religion.) 
2.	Rebbe might not have been worried, but he sure did get a
negative reaction when Ardeban saw the gift! Others might not have such
a ready response as Rebbe did. Perhaps Rebbe wasn't worried about
receiving a "wreath" in return because he had already received the pearl
from Ardeban. Everything might have been different had Rebbe given his
gift first, like the Jewish representative in Florida did. Giving a
gentile a mezuzah has "potentially sticky situation" written all over
it.  I'd choose a basket of fruit instead.

Other considerations:

a. Could it be that Ardeban kept the mezuzah in his night table as
opposed to on the front door? 

b. Some authorities are concerned about a non-Jew throwing away a
parchment with God's name on it.

All the best,  Phil



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Message: 7
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:33:02 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] What did they learn in the yeshiva of Shem and


Silverman, Philip B wrote:

> a. Could it be that Ardeban kept the mezuzah in his night table as 
> opposed to on the front door?

Rebbi said it would protect him.  Presumably it could only do that if
he were doing a mitzvah with it.  Putting it in his doorway would be a
mitzvah, and he'd get a reward as an "eino metzuveh ve'oseh".  In his
night table it would just be an ornament.

 
> b. Some authorities are concerned about a non-Jew throwing away a 
> parchment with God?s name on it.

But he wouldn't do that to a treasured gift.  If it were just something
the last tenant left up, then sure, that's exactly what he might do,
which is why we don't leave them up if we don't know that the next
tenant will be Jewish.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas



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Message: 8
From: Arie Folger <afolger@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 00:04:37 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Minhag Yisroel and Gra on 2 Matzos vs.3


R'n CL wrote:
> I thought that, to the contrary, I suggested
> that for some people, a particular question may be so important to them
> that it shapes their whole hashkafic outlook on life, and hence they
> would indeed categorically exclude choosing someone based on the
> particular desired answer to a particular question.

Well, I do have an issue with that. Our actions should flow forth from our 
principles, don't you think so?

> Being machmir in ben adam l'chavero doesn't sound like a derech to you?
> Isn't that what R' Yisroel Salant was famous for?

You got me! I wasn't precise enough.

> You don't think one could categorise poskim on the basis of their known
> tendency (either less or more) to take the human dimension into account?

A "tendency (either less or more) to take the human dimension into account" 
does not equal a particular answer. In fact, you beautifully demonstrated how 
sometimes the more ma'hmir posseq can be the one who is humanly more 
appropriate.

I thoroughly appreciated the give and take in this thread and its parent, but 
believe that at this point we are getting diminishing returns. Hence, I want 
to express my gratitude to R'nCL, RRW, RJR and the others who chimed in. I 
will read follow up posts, but on account of some project I need to work on, 
I will be less likely to post in the coming three weeks. Please do not feel 
offended by my silence.

KT,
-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com



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Message: 9
From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toramada@bezeqint.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 08:19:23 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] What's important when paskening LeKula or LeChumra


Rav Aviner wrote a summary of the questions regarding Heter Mechira and 
Otzar Beit Din.

What is interesting is that he raises many issues that we have discussed 
here in the past, including the question of when a chumra in one matter 
actually impacts and causes a kula or even an aveira in another matter.

http://rotter.net/forum/scoops1/11242.shtml

The article is in Hebrew.

(the discussion below it is also interesting on a general level).

He also brings Marei Mekomot.

Shoshana L. Boublil






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Message: 10
From: "Allen Gerstl" <acgerstl@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 05:24:48 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Rambam and Elitisim, was Religion and


On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 05:53:28 -0400
R' Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Wrote: Subject: Re: [Avodah] Religion and Falsifiability

On Wed, Oct 24, 2007 at 05:06:36AM -0400, david guttmann wrote:
: RDR said:
:>If I can translate, RMB says it would make him question, not the Torah, 
but
:> how we implement it today.
...
: Not necessarily. See the introduction to pirush Hamishna of the Rambam 
(page
: 23 in the Kapach edition)...
: His famous twofold answer follows :All people exist to prepare the
: environment and serve the few Ovdei Hashem and second to keep company to 
the
: few savants...

>I find this Rambam exceedingly difficult.
                                         .        .           .
>Each person...still has to live as to become one of those few... But the 
>Rambam does not change >the basic premise that few do get it right, few are 
>true ovedei Hashem, who "implement the >Torah" correctly. And the rest of 
>us are obligated to try joining that few. The
>need for the rest of us to rethink our implementation of "keeping the
>Torah" is still there.

Please see this reference to a letter by the Rambam to a simple sincere 
person that is cited on R' David Guttman's blog. It shows the Rambam's 
warmth of personality and, IMO,  his inclusion of a much wider circle of 
people within his definition of those who are ovedei Hasham.

See:
http://yediah.blogspot.com/2007/04/was-rambam-elitist.html

Thursday, April 19, 2007
Was Rambam an elitist?

... I decided to post what I find an interesting excerpt of a letter on page 
408 in R. Shailat’s edition of Rambam letters.

The letter is addressed to a simple Jew in Baghdad who wrote Rambam telling 
him that he is an Am Ha’aretz (an ignoramus), that he is working very hard 
on his learning Rambam’s commentary on the Mishna (written originally in 
Arabic) and that he has difficulty learning Mishne Torah because it is in 
Hebrew (Lashon Mishna). He asks Rambam among other things to advise him 
about learning.

Rambam answers him:

"First know that you are not an Am Ha’aretz! You are my pupil and beloved as 
is anyone that is endeavoring to cleave to learning Torah whether he 
understands one verse or one Halacha, whether in Hebrew, Arabic or Aramaic. 
The purpose of learning is to understand the subject in any language; after 
all reading of Shema is permitted in any language how much more the 
commentaries.  ...

Generally you are my brother God will help you and you will acquire 
perfection and be successful in two worlds."

R' Guttman continues:

I find this letter very uplifting. It puts to rest the accusation of an 
elitist Rambam. He was elitist in the sense of having expectations for 
constant self-improvement but he saw it as a universal capability. Everyone 
has the ability to grow! I also find fascinating the importance Rambam gave 
to his great work. He really had a realistic view of what he had 
accomplished and his own self worth. He did not indulge in false modesty. It 
is a trait we find in all his writings. He was a real Anav - more on this at 
another occasion

Truly inspiring!

KT
Eliyahu





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Message: 11
From: Dov Kay <dov_kay@hotmail.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 09:45:01 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] Psak shopping



> But given the non> ideality of this world, I am not prepared to say that it is always> inappropriate to go shopping. <<It is hard to argue in the specific case you mention. However, there is a workaround, as explained in halakhah. If you find out about a different opinion, go back to the first rav and confront him with it; he may change his mind or be unconvinced. Nonetheless, you do show that there are exceptions worth considering.> ideality of this world, I am not prepared to say that it is always> inappropriate to go shopping.It is hard to argue in the specific case you mention. However, there is a workaround, as explained in halakhah. If you find out about a different opinion, go back to the first rav and confront him with it; he may change his mind or be unconvinced. Nonetheless, you do show that there are exceptions worth considering.>>
 
I remember seeing in Techumin that there are two rationales for prohibiting someone from re-asking a sh'eila after a p'sak has already been given by the first posek: 1. K'vod haRav - ie it is disrespectful to the first Rav to re-ask a sh'eila of a second posek; 2. Neder - the first p'sak is binding and cannot be overturned by the second posek's p'sak.
 
According to the first rationale, the first Rav could indeed give permission to the shoel to re-ask the sh'eila of a second posek (or of himself).  According to the second rationale, this would be prohibited, because the first p'sak is binding on the shoel willy nilly.  Another nafka mina is that according to the first rationale, a shoel who received a lenient p'sak from the first posek would not be permitted to re-ask the sh'eila, even if the second posek ruled stringently.  However, according to the second rationale, this would be permitted.
 
R. Folger's advice that the shoel go back to the first posek would only work according to the first rationale, not the second, unless you understand that the first posek has the power to be "mattir" the neder imposed by his first p'sak and give a different p'sak.  
 
I don't recall from the article, but perhaps the second rationale only applies to a cheftza, eg is this chicken kosher?  If the posek paskens that it is not, he cannot remove the issur by changing his mind.  However, when the question merely affects the conduct of the shoel, this might not apply.
 
This is all purely speculative and, to my mind at least, a little absurd.  I have never met any posek who claimed that he could not change his mind, and we all know of cases where great poskim have retracted their views, eg Rav DZ Feldman's mentioned in a shiur I heard on YU Torah online that Rav Kook originally opposed the heter mechira whilst in Europe but changed his mind upon making aliyah.  I don't think the categories are quite as rigid as the above would suggest.
 
Kol tuv
Dov Kay  
_________________________________________________________________
The next generation of MSN Hotmail has arrived - Windows Live Hotmail
http://www.newhotmail.co.uk
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