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Volume 24: Number 9

Wed, 17 Oct 2007

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:12:48 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] growing grapes


On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 03:56:23PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: This assumes that the vineyard starts with a graft. Is there any
: discussion of how plants grew again after the flood? Did Noah take
: seeds on board grafts or something else?
: Chumash only discusses animal life and not plant life

The chumash leaves it implied. The olive tree survived the flood,
proving it ended. It would seem that plants were unaffected.

Which goes some way to showing that the archeology isn't a trivial
question.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
micha@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rabbi Israel Salanter



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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:12:48 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] growing grapes


On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 03:56:23PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: This assumes that the vineyard starts with a graft. Is there any
: discussion of how plants grew again after the flood? Did Noah take
: seeds on board grafts or something else?
: Chumash only discusses animal life and not plant life

The chumash leaves it implied. The olive tree survived the flood,
proving it ended. It would seem that plants were unaffected.

Which goes some way to showing that the archeology isn't a trivial
question.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
micha@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rabbi Israel Salanter



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Message: 3
From: T613K@aol.com
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 01:12:59 EDT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Hebrews/Israelites/Bnei Yisroel - Jews


 
 
From: RallisW@aol.com

>>A very common misnomer used by both  clergy and lay  people, is to refer to 
the Bnei Yisroel in the Torah  as  Jews. 

For example; when the Jews left Egypt. Forgetting that 11  other tribes also  
left Egypt?

Let's keep in mind Moshe Rabbeinu  was not a Jew. 

The first person in Tanach that I am aware of, that was  called a Jew, was  
Mordechai.<<




>>>>
Yet Mordechai was from the tribe of Benjamin ("ish  Yemini"), not from the 
tribe of Judah, which proves that already from the time  of galus Bavel, 
"Yehudi" (="Jew") had become the generic word for members of any  of the 12 tribes.
 
This was undoubtedly because Yehuda was by then the largest of the tribes,  
plus the Jews were no longer living in their ancestral homelands and the tribes 
 no longer lived in separate areas, but were all mixed together and became  
subsumed under Yehuda.  (Of course most of the members of the Ten Tribes  were 
already lost among the nations by then but the few who remained  Jews 
identified themselves as "Jews" -- as Yehudim -- mixing with the  largest and most 
dominant tribe.)

 

--Toby  Katz
=============



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Message: 4
From: T613K@aol.com
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 01:19:47 EDT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Mitsvat Sukkah is almost unique


 
 
From: Daniel Israel _dmi1@hushmail.com_ (mailto:dmi1@hushmail.com) 

> Now back to my  hobby horse. The better parellel to Sukkah imho is not to 
> yishuv EY but  to  entry to the Beis haMIkdash where one is immersed in 
>  kedusha.  This  goes along with the term "Sukkas David", that each  
> Sukkah is reminiscent not so much of anenei hakavod but rather of the  
> Sanctuary -  hence the name Tabernacles.  [--RRW]

>>Maybe I missed something, but being in E"Y is not being  immersed in 
kedusha?<<

>>>>>
Not the same thing. Think about it.  You have to be in a state of  tahara 
before you can enter the BHM'K. Is the same true of entering or remaining  in E'Y?




--Toby  Katz
=============



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Message: 5
From: Dov Kay <dov_kay@hotmail.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:47:42 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] growing grapes



<<This assumes that the vineyard starts with a graft. Is there anydiscussion of howplants grew again after the flood? Did Noah take seeds on board orgrafts or something else?Chumash only discusses animal life and not plant life>>
 
The Torah does discuss plant life when it describes the dove bringing the olive branch.  I think the Ramban concludes that trees and foliage must have survived the flood.  Although there is an opinion that the olive branch came from Gan Eden, the Ramban rejects this because, if it were so, what proof would Noach have had that the waters were receding.  
 
Even if we interpret the mabul completely literally, there is no doubt that the phenomenon was so shot through with nissim that I find speculation of this kind a little futile.
 
Kol tuv
Dov Kay
_________________________________________________________________
100?s of Music vouchers to be won with MSN Music
https://www.musicmashup.co.uk
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Message: 6
From: "Allen Gerstl" <acgerstl@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 04:59:08 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Cheshbon Ha-Nefesh (I.R.S.O.)


For an interesting article as to the book Cheshbon Ha-Nefesh that provides a 
program for such a personal stocktaking see:

http://www.yasharbooks.com/2004/11/musar-and-benjamin-franklin-ii.html

KT
Eliyahu





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Message: 7
From: "Eli Turkel" <eliturkel@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 10:53:25 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] plants after the flood


> This assumes that the vineyard starts with a graft. Is there any
> discussion of how
> plants grew again after the flood? Did Noah take seeds on board or
> grafts or something else?
> Chumash only discusses animal life and not plant life


IIRC it says that he took "yichurim", which I take to mean cuttings.>.

Makes sense for vineyards. How about the millions of other plants.
How about plants that only appear in Hawaii or Tanznia or Australia or
South America?

-- 
Eli Turkel



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Message: 8
From: T613K@aol.com
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 01:29:06 EDT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] How Bitter Can A Month Be? Bittersweet.


 
 
From: "Lisa Liel" _lisa@starways.net_ (mailto:lisa@starways.net) 


>>Some of  these names are Akkadian, but some are Hurrian, and some may
be partially  Sumerian.  Simanu is Sivan and Kislimu is Kislev.  Those
are other  examples of the m/w metathesis in the late dialect of
Akkadian they spoke in  Babylon in the time of Nebuchadnezzar.<<





>>>>
Akkadian, Sumerian, Hurrian -- are these all Semitic languages?
 
Do you know or can you figure out what the cognate Hebew roots would be  that 
might correspond to Nisanu - Nissan, or Ayaru-Iyar and so on?



--Toby  Katz
=============



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Message: 9
From: "Eli Turkel" <eliturkel@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 10:44:03 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] mitzvat aseh


.
> .The better parellel to Sukkah imho is not to
> yishuv EY but to  entry to the Beis haMIkdash where one is immersed in
> kedusha.  .

Maybe I missed something, but being in E"Y is not being immersed in kedusha?>>

Let me change topics

RMF claims that the mitzvah of yishuv EY is a mitzvat Aseh kiyumit like Tzizit
where one is not required to do it but one gets a mitzva if one does.

R. Shapira (Ztl) disagreed and pointed out that if one wears a cloth
with 4 corners
then one is required to put on tzizit. Similarly other mitzvat Aseh
kiyumit the choice
is whether to be in the position. However once in the position the
Mitzvah is required.
Same thing for Succah once one eats a meal on any day of Succot it
must be in a Succah.
The kiyumit part is only that one doesnt't have to eat a meal.
None of this applied to yishuv EY

I once heard a defense of RMF comparing it to eating matzah on the
later days of Pesach according to the Gra where there is a mitzvah if
one eats matzah.

Does anyone know of other mtzvot Aseh which are completely voluntary?

kol tuv

-- 
Eli Turkel



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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 07:05:39 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Cheshbon Ha-Nefesh (I.R.S.O.)


On Wed, Oct 17, 2007 at 04:59:08AM -0400, Allen Gerstl wrote:
: For an interesting article as to the book Cheshbon Ha-Nefesh that provides a 
: program for such a personal stocktaking see:
: http://www.yasharbooks.com/2004/11/musar-and-benjamin-franklin-ii.html

It was discussed here too. If you open Franklin's book, it is
obviously the source -- with a somewhat different list of middos. See
<http://tinyurl.com/2n7oh8> for the archive index of it.

That said, keeping Cheshbon haNefesh predates the Ramchal. Franklin's is
just one possible format for doing so; one that appealed to RYS. Keeping
a nightly journal, presuming one journaled one's emotional and external
responses rather than a diary of the day's events, is no less valuable.

In either case, one sees what patterns really emerge, rather than seeing
the anecdotal evidence that confirms what I think I'm like. And, it
habituates me in watching myself. Which I think added to my ability to
watch myself while in the moment, and catch more of my mistakes before
they're made.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "And you shall love H' your G-d with your whole
micha@aishdas.org        heart, your entire soul, and all you own."
http://www.aishdas.org   Love is not two who look at each other,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      It is two who look in the same direction.



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Message: 11
From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:00:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject:
[Avodah] Religion and Falsifiability


RDE recently mentioned to me in private email that someone once gave
him the following challenge:
What information would you need to be presented to take off your kipah?

A more frum rephrasing might be: What evidence do you think would be
impossible solely because of your religious beliefs?

I found it an intriguing question. Are we irrationally, stubbornly,
religious, or is there actually something that could falsify your
religious stance?

To answer the challenger's question:
When we get these Torah vs archeology discussions, I consistently
liken it to contradictions between General Relativity and Quantum
Mechanics. They are the two most successfully tested theories in
science -- in their own domains. A GPS's chips work because of
semiconductor physics which we found because of QM -- they are QM
effects. And yet we use them to compute satellite location, including
correcting for relativistic effects! Because each works well in their
respective core domains, we can shelve questions about their
peripheral areas of overlap for later. It's no more an act of faith
than designing or using a GPS device. Religion isn't about history;
it's about values and structure, and only tangentially makes
historical claims.

(Similarly, astronomy and archeology stretch the limits of scientific
method, as their experiments are not controlled -- you can only look
at the examples the universe gives you. Unlike setting up a physics,
chemistry or biology experiment. Archeology is even further, as a
whole class of its experiments are not repeatable. But this point is
less worth arguing.)

However, this does mean that in religion's core domain, I do believe
that certain things could not possibly ever be found. For example:

Ani maamin beemunah sheleimah: We will never find evidence of
redeeming features of Amaleiqi culture. I would say that if it would
happen, I don't think I could remain an Orthodox Jew, if it were not
that it can't happen.

Also, it depends where one places the line between tweaking my current
beliefs and finding new ones. For example:

Ani maamin beemunha sheleimah: We will never find a bayis 1 era copy
of the book of P (a reference to document hypothesis). It is possible
to embrace DH with minimal damage to the rest of yahadus -- although I
don't think of the result as Orthodox Judaism. But the problem could
never arise for me to worry about it disproving that critical piece of
my emunah.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv




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Message: 12
From: "Lisa Liel" <lisa@starways.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:55:46 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] How Bitter Can A Month Be? Bittersweet.


On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 01:29:06 EDT, T613K@aol.com wrote:
>From: "Lisa Liel" _lisa@starways.net_ (mailto:lisa@starways.net) 
>
>
>>Some of  these names are Akkadian, but some are Hurrian, and some
>>may be partially Sumerian.  Simanu is Sivan and Kislimu is Kislev. 
>>Those are other  examples of the m/w metathesis in the late dialect 
>>of Akkadian they spoke in  Babylon in the time of Nebuchadnezzar.
>
>Akkadian, Sumerian, Hurrian -- are these all Semitic languages?

Sumerian is not related to any known human language.  There are some
aspects of it that are similar to ancient Turkish (which is why the
field is called Sumerology in Turkey, rather than Assyriology, as
it's called everywhere else).  Hurrian is also of unknown provenance.
They appeared suddenly in the north during the Early Bronze Age, and
were probably the Horites who were displaced by the Ishmaelites
around that time, even if secular scholarship would prefer not to
make the connection.

Akkadian is Semitic.  The other two are not.

>Do you know or can you figure out what the cognate Hebew roots would
>be that might correspond to Nisanu - Nissan, or Ayaru-Iyar and so on?

It's hard to say.  A quick check of Wikipedia says this:

* Nisan is from the Sumerian Nisag, or "first fruits"
* Iyyar is from the Akkadian Ayyaru, or "rosette; blossom"
* Sivan is from the Akkadian Simanu, or "season; time", similar to
the Hebrew word "siman"
* Tammuz, of course, is from the Sumerian deity Dumuzi.
* Av is from the Akkadian Abu, but as much as it sounds like the
Hebrew for father, Akkadian for father is "addu", so there doesn't
seem to be a clear explanation for this.
* Elul is from the Akkadian Ululu, but again, I don't see a
translation.
* Tishrei is from the Akkadian Tashritu, or "beginning".
* Marheshvan is from the Akkadian Arahsamnu, or "eighth month".
* Kislev is from the Akkadian Kislimu.
* Tevet is from the Akkadian Tebetu.
* Shevat is from the Akkadian Shabatu.
* Adar is from the Akkadian Adaru.

I don't have access to an Akkadian dictionary, so I can't look the
others up.

For the record, though, cognates are tricky.  Kayitz means summer in
Hebrew, but kussu (the Akkadian cognate) means "cold" and "winter".

Lisa
--
The Book of Esther in the Light of History, now available at:
http://www.lulu.com/starways/

Images from a Twisted Mind at http://www.cafepress.com/starways/




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Message: 13
From: "Daniel Israel" <dmi1@hushmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 10:08:49 -0600
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] plants after the flood


On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 02:53:25 -0600 Eli Turkel <eliturkel@gmail.com> 
wrote:
>Makes sense for vineyards. How about the millions of other plants.
>How about plants that only appear in Hawaii or Tanznia or 
>Australia or South America?

Why is this any more or less of a kasha then the animal species 
that only appear in the same places?

--
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu




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Message: 14
From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:34:28 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] "Es Yom HaShmini Ho'Atzeres Hazeh"


On 10/16/07, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> Look at Yaaleh veYavo. We use chag hamatzos, yom teru'ah, biblical names
> for the Yamim Tovim.
>
> And so, I would think the proper precedent for Shemini Atzeres is from
> the end of Parashas Pinachas: Uvayom hashemini, atzeres tihyeh lakhem.
> (Comma is representing a zaqeif.) And that would argue for not lumping
> "shemini" and "atzeres" into the same phrase.


Good point!   While WE may use it as a "catch" phrase, this point undermines
the aforementioned Rema's observation!

But the whole question of why Sepharadim don't use Pesach and RH still
> intrigues me. As I said, it sheds light on the whole issue of davening
> in leshon chazal - because here we clearly are speaking in leshon
> Tanakh.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha-


Micha seems to be looking for a "common" theory of everything. I am saying
that Lashon Hazal vs.  Lashon Tanach is contextual - And that is about
pattern recognition etc.

So AISI Vatiten Lanu Is tanachi, regardless of  the rest of  the liturgy.
And  indeed Ya'alev v'yavo uses  Biblical Holiday names for the most part -
yom  Hazikkaron is after all quasi Biblical


Tngentiallyre: Ya'ave V'yavo - R. Meir Bar Ilan reportedly posited that this
tefillah was ORIGINALLY about RH [Yom Hazikaron] only and morphed into  a
more generic usage
When you look at the pattern, it sure makes sense! [source: Mitchell First,
esq.]



-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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