Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 227

Sat, 13 Oct 2007

• 1. German siddur questions (Michael Kopinsky)
• 2. Re: Zman Sinchaseinu Redux - An interesting Rema (Richard Wolpoe)
• 3. Re: German siddur questions (Richard Wolpoe)
• 4. Re: German siddur questions (Zev Sero)
• 5. Mitsvat Sukkah is almost unique (Chana Luntz)
• 6. Re: Shmini Atzeret - why Sukkah YES and Lulav NO? (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 7. American jury duty (David Riceman)
• 8. Z'man Simchaseinu (Jonathan Baker)
• 9. Re: German siddur questions (Michael Poppers)
• 10. Reish Lakish (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: How much Conformity to local Nusach/Mihag is required for Shatz and for the Private Worshiper? (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Reish Lakish (Rich, Joel)

Lately, I have been davening maariv out of a small German siddur, published
in Basel in 1974.  (Copyright by Victor Goldschmidt Verlag, Basel, 1974.
Rechtsnachfolger von Dr. Felix Kauffman, New York, fuhrer Verlag I. Kauffman
& M. Lehrberger, Frankfurt a. M. - Rodelheim)

I've noticed a few strange things in the siddur:  (Some of these I'm only
noticing now, that I'm looking for them.)

1)  In the middle of the bracha of S'lach Lanu (right before "ki
mochel..."), it has a note saying "An Fasttagen schaltet man hier im
Morgengebet die Slichos ein," which according to my best approximation (and
Google Translate), means, "On fast days, insert the slichos here in the
morning prayers."

What minhag is this referring to?  Slichos in the middle of shemoneh esrei?!

2)  Before maariv, it has Shir Hamaalos Hinei Barchu... and Hashem
Tz'vakos..., prefaced by the comment "Wenn man an Wochentagen Maariv Bizmano
betet, sagt man folgende Verse vor V'hu Rachum."  (Google: "When weekdays
"Maariv bizmano" prays, says the following verse before "v'hu rachum")

a) What is Maariv Bizmano?  Is it saying that you only say these pesukim if
you're davening maariv after tzeis?
b) I thought only chassidim say Shir Hamaalos before Maariv.  Does hardcore
nussach Ashkenaz (the siddur doesn't have mizmor shir before psukei d'zimrei
- I think that classifies it as hard core NA) also?

3)  In the bracha of birchas Hashanim, it has the following note:
Vom abend des 59. Tages nach Tekufas Tishrei an, der entweder auf den 5.
oder 6. Dezember fallt, bis Pesach wird hier "Tal Umattar" eingeschaltet.
(Google translation: From the evening of the 59th Day after Tekufas Tishrei,
either on the 5th Or 6 December fall until Pesach is here, "Tal Umattar"
turned on.)
We all know that in Chu"l you start saying v'sein tal umattar on the 4th or
5th of December.  Why does this siddur say the 5th or 6th?


KT,
Michael
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On 10/9/07, Richard Wolpoe <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There is a fasincating Rema [orach chaim 668:1] re:
> "es Yom HaShimni hag Ho'atzeres hazeh"
> Rmea states this is NOT a hag at all! It reall should say:
> "es Yom HaShimni Ho'atzeres Hazeh"
>
>
=================================================
Re: Zman
It is absent in the Vatiten lanu of the Yamim Nora'im
If Z'man were  introducing something seasonal it could have read for RH
Es Yom Hazikaron hazeh, z'man Shofroseinu [or something similar] instead of
Yom (zichron) T'ruah
And for YK
Es Yom Hakippurim hazeh z'man Selichoseinu [or something similar] instead of
just limchila

IOW why not use Z'man as a consistent formula throughout?

Some want to read Herisueinu & Mattan Toroseinu as the historical points and
then shift to the agriucltural for Sukkos.   While plasuible it is not as
likely as seeing all following the hisorical aspect.  Matan Torah is certain
openly indicated in the Humash. The 3 agricultural reasons are.  If Z'man
indicative of an agricultural theme for one, it could  have easily been
used for all 3.



Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On 10/11/07, Michael Kopinsky <mkopinsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Lately, I have been davening maariv out of a small German siddur,
> published in Basel in 1974.  (Copyright by Victor Goldschmidt Verlag, Basel,
> 1974.  Rechtsnachfolger von Dr. Felix Kauffman, New York, fuhrer Verlag I.
> Kauffman & M. Lehrberger, Frankfurt a. M. - Rodelheim)
>
> I've noticed a few strange things in the siddur:  (Some of these I'm only
> noticing now, that I'm looking for them.)
>
> 1)  In the middle of the bracha of S'lach Lanu (right before "ki
> mochel..."), it has a note saying "An Fasttagen schaltet man hier im
> Morgengebet die Slichos ein," which according to my best approximation (and
> Google Translate), means, "On fast days, insert the slichos here in the
> morning prayers."
>
> What minhag is this referring to?  Slichos in the middle of shemoneh
> esrei?!
>

Yes See Seder Rav Amram Gaon
In Breuer's all fast day selichos are said at this point - EXCEP sheini
hamishi sheini [aka behab]

Selichos during Ellul etc. are said b'ashmores haboker
Selichos on YK are said during all five tefillos during hazaras Hashtaz

2)  Before maariv, it has Shir Hamaalos Hinei Barchu... and Hashem
> Tz'vakos..., prefaced by the comment "Wenn man an Wochentagen Maariv Bizmano
> betet, sagt man folgende Verse vor V'hu Rachum."  (Google: "When weekdays
> "Maariv bizmano" prays, says the following verse before "v'hu rachum")
>
> a) What is Maariv Bizmano?  Is it saying that you only say these pesukim
> if you're davening maariv after tzeis?
>

After Tzeis

b) I thought only chassidim say Shir Hamaalos before Maariv.  Does hardcore
> nussach Ashkenaz (the siddur doesn't have mizmor shir before psukei d'zimrei
> - I think that classifies it as hard core NA) also?
>


Yekkes dven ma'ariv either immediately after minha - w/o aleinu after
kaddish tiskabal
or after tzeirs afer this shir hama'los. in obth events, the Bar'chu in
ma'ariv follows a kaddish
I speculate that if ma'ariv bizmano were to follow kaddish derbbanan, then
this mizmore need not be said.

Exception on Mo'tsa'ei  Shabbos psalm 164 and 67 precede Ma'ariv w/o any
kaddish




3)  In the bracha of birchas Hashanim, it has the following note:
> Vom abend des 59. Tages nach Tekufas Tishrei an, der entweder auf den 5.
> oder 6. Dezember fallt, bis Pesach wird hier "Tal Umattar" eingeschaltet.
> (Google translation: From the evening of the 59th Day after Tekufas Tishrei,
> either on the 5th Or 6 December fall until Pesach is here, "Tal Umattar"
> turned on.)
> We all know that in Chu"l you start saying v'sein tal umattar on the 4th
> or 5th of December.  Why does this siddur say the 5th or 6th?
>

It means the EVE [i.e ma'ariv] before the 5th of 6th.


KT,
> Michael
>
> __________



-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Michael Kopinsky wrote:

> 1)  In the middle of the bracha of S'lach Lanu (right before "ki 
> mochel..."), it has a note saying "An Fasttagen schaltet man hier im 
> Morgengebet die Slichos ein," which according to my best approximation 
> (and Google Translate), means, "On fast days, insert the slichos here in 
> the morning prayers."
>  
> What minhag is this referring to?  Slichos in the middle of shemoneh esrei?!

Yes, in chazarat hashatz.  This is the German minhag, and also the
Italian one.  It was probably the original minhag in all of Europe,
and then at some point most communities moved the slichot to after
chazarat hashatz because of the hefsek.  For some reason we have no
problem saying selichot inside chazarat hashatz on Yom Kippur, so
why not on other occasions?

Checking my Italian siddur, I find that there's a different chazarat
hashatz for each fast day, including not only selichot in Selach Lanu
but also short topical piyutim in each bracha, much like the "krovetz"
of Purim.  It also has all the kinot of Tish'a B'av inside the bracha
of Veliyrushalayim.

But before the chazarat hashatz of Tish'a B'av there is the following
not: "Some protest against all the additions that are written in the
machzorim in the tefillot of all the fast days, and especially in the
first and last three brachot, because according to the gemara one
should say the brachot properly, and then add afterwards even like
the order of Yom Kippur, as the community wishes."

And in the bracha of Veliyrushalayim, before the kinnot, it says:
"Some communities skip from here to 'Rachem' and finish the whole
tefilla, and then sit on the ground and start the kinnot from here,
and it is a good custom, so as not to interrupt the tefillah so
much with speech and action."

Presumably these two notes reflect the movement that in Eastern Europe
was taken to its ultimate conclusion, with all the additions moved from
inside the tefillot to after them.



> 2)  Before maariv, it has Shir Hamaalos Hinei Barchu... and Hashem 
> Tz'vakos..., prefaced by the comment "Wenn man an Wochentagen Maariv 
> Bizmano betet, sagt man folgende Verse vor V'hu Rachum."  (Google: "When 
> weekdays "Maariv bizmano" prays, says the following verse before "v'hu 
> rachum")
>  
> a) What is Maariv Bizmano?  Is it saying that you only say these pesukim 
> if you're davening maariv after tzeis?

That sounds to me like a reasonable interpretation.


> b) I thought only chassidim say Shir Hamaalos before Maariv.  Does 
> hardcore nussach Ashkenaz (the siddur doesn't have mizmor shir before 
> psukei d'zimrei - I think that classifies it as hard core NA) also?

My Italian siddur has it.  It also says that the custom is to flog
the sinners between mincha and maariv, and then the chazzan immediately
gets up and recites "vehu rachum yechaper avon...".   Also, it says
that some say the shir shel yom before shir hamaalot.


> 3)  In the bracha of birchas Hashanim, it has the following note:
> Vom abend des 59. Tages nach Tekufas Tishrei an, der entweder auf den 5. 
> oder 6. Dezember fallt, bis Pesach wird hier "Tal Umattar" 
> eingeschaltet. (Google translation: From the evening of the 59th Day 
> after Tekufas Tishrei, either on the 5th Or 6 December fall until Pesach 
> is here, "Tal Umattar" turned on.)
> We all know that in Chu"l you start saying v'sein tal umattar on the 4th 
> or 5th of December.  Why does this siddur say the 5th or 6th? 

It means the evening before the 5th or 6th.  Using the Jewish method
of the night preceding the day, even though it's referencing goyishe
dates.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

> On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 08:51:29AM +0200, Esther and Aryeh 
> Frimer wrote:
> > I believe it was Rav Kook ZT"L who noted that Sukkah and 
> >Yishuv Eretz Yisrael are the only Mitzvot which one fulfills even
with the mud on
> > ones shoes.

And then:


> REMT Writes: "I have seen it written in the name of the Vilner Gaon  
> that the only two mitzvos encompassing the entire body are 
> sukkah and  yishuv Eretz Yisrael, with which he associated the pasuk
"Vayhi  
> v'shaleim --sukko um'onaso b'Tziyon."  When I heard R. Riskin quote  
> that in a public lecture many years ago, one woman in the audience  
> called out:  "what about mikvah?"  R. Riskin then added that to his  
> list.


I would note that, whatever else there may be to be discussed, that
these two formulations are quite different, and may account for some of
the discrepancy.  After all, while there may be much to say regarding
whether mikvah is a mitzvah in and of itself, thus fulfilling the
criteria of being a mitzvah that encompasses the entire body, there is
no question that it is not, at least l'chatchila, fulfilled "even with
the mud on one's shoes" (whether the mud not to mention the shoes might
be considered a chatziza sufficient to be me'akev is, of course, a
different question).

Shabbat Shalom

Chana

R' Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> The danger of sitting in the sukkah lesheim mitzva on Shmini
> Atzeres is all about b'al tosif. This sevara is held by many
> poskim including DerechC haim [Nsivos} YOU MUST sit because
> of s'feika deyoma but only ...

I admit that some poskim do write about this, but I honestly don't understand it. Why is the Second Day of Hoshana Raba a more difficult Bal Tosif than the Second Day of Pesach?

I've heard that it's because this is the only case where it is two different holidays conflicting, but I don't know why that would be relevant to Bal Tosif. Bal Tosif is about doing more than was prescribed, no about interfering with another holiday. If there were ever a holiday where Bal Tosif should be a problem, it would be all the wacky things we do at the second Seder, not relaxing in a gazebo after Sukkos.

And the bottom line is that once Chazal institute their halachos, Bal Tosif ceases to be any problem whatsoever. It seems rather simple (in my eyes) that Bal Tosif is among the topics which were discussed by Chazal in their debate over what to do on Second Day of Hoshana Raba. Their conclusion was that Yesuvei Yasvinan, Bruchi Lo Mevarchinan. Once they instituted that as a halacha l'doros, shouldn't Bal Tosif cease to be a problem?

Akiva Miller

Has anyone published tshuvos abut guidelines for jurors? Is anything 
available online?

Thanks,

David Riceman

I have written a truly wonderful reconciliation of my and Rabbi Wolpoe's
position, but an Avodah post is too small to contain it.  

Therefore, I posted it here: 
http://thanbook.blogspot.com/2007/10/zman-simchaseinu-3a.html

Summary: the Bikkurim passage points to the construction of the Temple
and links it to Simcha, the Haggadah takes that to imply that the culmination
of the Exodus is the construction of the Temple - see Dayeinu.  Thus we
can say that the Torah hints to the construction of the Temple as the
defined Time of Simcha.

Also, there's a better way to define the parallelism of the three Zmanim.

--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjbaker@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

In an otherwise well-said response to RMK, RRW wrote:
> Exception on Mo'tsa'ei? Shabbos psalm 164 and 67 precede Ma'ariv w/o any
kaddish <
An easy typo to spot :-).  For the first chapter#, RRW meant 144.

And on a personal note:
>> We all know that in Chu"l you start saying v'sein tal umattar on the 4th
or 5th of December.? Why does this siddur say the 5th or 6th??<<
> It means the EVE [i.e ma'ariv] before the 5th o[r] 6th.?<
Some years ago, I actually corrected my Goldschmidt-publisher
Roedelheim-print siddur's "5. oder 6.," replacing the "6" with a "4" :-).
For more on this issue (which both RMK and RRW appear to have a handle on,
and which I'm sure has been discussed exhaustively on Avodah and on other
fora in the past), see Section III of
http://www.lookstein.org/articles/veten_tal.htm.

Shabbas Shalom and Gut Chodesh from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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Reish Lakish makes a number of statements that seem informed by his
being a baal teshuvah.

For example:

R' Yochanan, who aquired Torah over his whole life, holds that Moshe
got the Torah piece-by-piece over the 40 years. Reish Lakish -- at
once.

Reish Lakish's famous statement about teshuvah mei'avahah. Who would
know better than RL the power of regretting past wrongs against the
Beloved to propel you to where mitzvos would have?

And on this week's parashah (in Sanhedrin 108a): Rav Yochanan takes
tamim hayah bedorosav as a genai; to RL, who knew what being in a
negative environment could mean, it is shevach.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

On Thu, October 11, 2007 8:41 am, R Arie Folger wrote:
:> On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 04:15:18PM +0200, Arie Folger wrote:
:>: ROY believes that the whole world should use nussa'h 'edot
:>: hamizra'h...

[Me:]
:> The whole world, or "just" EY and the Americas?

:> The way ROY understands minhag hamaqom, the BY and his generation
:> fully established it in EY as being that of Edot haMizrach. I would
:> think -- as modified by Qabbalas haAri, but I don't see ROY say that.
:
: You conflate two issues. Based on the Ari's like for nussa'h 'edot
: hamira'h, he thinks we should all use it. At least, according to the
: story I vaguely recall.

I don't think so, I think there is a miscommunication.

ROY holds that minhag hamaqom was set by Israel's immigrants in the
days of Mequbalei Tzefas and the New World's immigrants of the early
era. And therefore he has reason to say that an Ashkenazi who makes
aliyah should eat qitniyos -- he moved to a new community. The current
state of multiple batei dinim and therefore multiple minhagim is -- to
ROY -- in error, since the 2nd beis din had no permission to establish
a second practice. There already was a minhag hamaqom!

I added as an aside, that if this is ROY's argument, it's the
kabbalistic version of minhag Sepharad that would be Israel's minhag
hamaqom. And yet, I never heard of ROY saying so.

Nothing to do with the Ar"i za"l's own preferences.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

 


And on this week's parashah (in Sanhedrin 108a): Rav Yochanan takes
tamim hayah bedorosav as a genai; to RL, who knew what being in a
negative environment could mean, it is shevach.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha
=============================
I was thinking about this this morning on the way to work.  Is it
apikorsus according to at least some hashkafic strains to say that one's
torah opinions are formed based in part on personal experiences since it
might imply personal nigiut as well as different people reaching
different conclusions on amita shel torah when there can (may?) be only
one amita shel torah.

Further, wasn't R"Y R"L's primary rebbi(and they both may have shared R'
Yehuda nesia)? If so how could R"L have a different mesora on this
(specific or general) issue or could it be at some level (I'm trying to
sound frum :-)) each read into it based on their own lev shel torah
which is informed upon by many things in life (even if you say these
were both ancient mesora's - how did they start off being different? Why
did they pick different versions to champion?)

Lastly, in modern discussion issues, isn't R"L suspect (at some level)in
all areas having had non-torah early input? (see especially Bava Metzia
84a)  If so, how do we know where to accept his opinion as apparently
authoritative  and where not?

Shabbat Shalom
Joel Rich
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