Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 191

Tue, 11 Sep 2007

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Elliott Shevin <eshevin@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:43:37 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Selichos



R. Michael Poppers relates:
 
> Yes, if only the time between chatzos halayla and the end of layla is "a> time of mercy," while the nighttime before chatzos is the opposite, I would> imagine that 'tis better to say S'lichos during the day than at night> before chatzos.Personally, I have difficulty with the idea that "times of mercy" or of the opposite 
exist. (I don't know what RMP's position is.) Even the Yomim Naraim tefilah 
includes the notion that Hashem waits until a person's dying day to accept 
his teshuva, without stipulating that that day had better be between 1-10 
Tishrei. As my rov puts it, time does not exist for G-d.
 
So I can't buy into the idea that one time of the night is preferable to another, or 
Hashem is more approachable during Elul than during, say, Teves. 
 
(I do, however, like to say that certain of my acquaintances always bring 
up "Professor Kingsfield" around now--but of course, the Professor is *never* 
approachable. :-)  )
 
We don't have the Yomim Naraim because it's a superior time, from Hashem's 
perspective, to introspect and to petition Him. Ideally we'd do so throughout 
the year. We have them because if we didn't establish such a time, these 
tasks would never get done, any more than that lingering household chore 
you could do "anytime."
 Elly
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Message: 2
From: Daniel Eidensohn <yadmoshe@012.net.il>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 21:28:26 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Kosel vs shul in Old City


I davened mincha today in the Ramban's shul in the Old City.

Someone objected and said that I should have prayed at the Kosel since 
it has greater sanctity.

Is there such a priority?


Daniel Eidensohn



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Message: 3
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:51:06 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kosel vs shul in Old City


Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
> I davened mincha today in the Ramban's shul in the Old City.
> 
> Someone objected and said that I should have prayed at the Kosel since 
> it has greater sanctity.
> 
> Is there such a priority?

If there were one, what would be its limits?  After all, Meah Shearim
is only a half-hour's walk from the Kosel or less; should all the shuls
there close down?  Perhaps all the shuls "min hatzofim velifnim"?

One could argue that ein hachi nami -- in past times (such as when the
Ramban davened at the original shul that continues to bear his name
even after it moved to its present location) the Kosel wasn't readily
accessible, so shuls were built elsewhere, but now that one can walk
to the Kosel one should, and all those shuls should close down; but it
seems a strange argument.  In the times of the 2nd BHMK were there no
shuls in Y'm?

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas



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Message: 4
From: JRich@Sibson.com
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:24:02 CDT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kosel vs shul in Old City


I davened mincha today in the Ramban's shul in the Old City.

Someone objected and said that I should have prayed at the Kosel since it has greater sanctity.

Is there such a priority?


Daniel Eidensohn_____________________________certainly  in the collective jewish mind although I've often thought that the noise of the multiple minyanim could be a diversion.Kvct joel rich

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Message: 5
From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 17:48:27 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] The Optimum Time for Teshuva [Was Selichos]


>
>
> We don't have the Yomim Naraim because it's a superior time, from Hashem's
>
> perspective, to introspect and to petition Him. Ideally we'd do so
> throughout
> the year. We have them because if we didn't establish such a time, these
> tasks would never get done, any more than that lingering household chore
> you could do "anytime."
>
> Elly
>

AHA. I 'm glad someone brought this up.  and I guess that I agree to an
extent with the above posting nevertheless - AIUI the difference between
Ellul through YK season and the rest of the year is the impetus for doing
Teshuva and introspection.  During the entire year one confesses
IMMEDIATELY  as soon as one is aware of  having sinned!

With Ellul The difference is that there is aan daddtional positive
requierement to introspect and to SEEK and DESTROY sin - even thosse of
which we are not aware.

This is quite paralel to Passover.  Within 30 days of Passover the laws of
resposnisbility for  Hametz change because it is the season to become
conscious of hametz.  E.G. within 30 days of Passover, if I decie to travel
away from home ineed to SEARCH and DESTROY Hametz known and unknown.  Before
30 days only the KNOWN Hametz is subject to disposal of some kind.

Back to Ellul -  within 30 days of the New Year we consciously LOOK at
ourselves in order to correct faults KNOWN and UNKNOWN. The rest of the year
we respond only to sin that are in our conscience.

I guess the saintly do this process daily w/o regard to the time of year.
However, for the "amcha" the time of year does matter.

-- 
Kesiva vaChasima Tova
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Message: 6
From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 17:55:29 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] standing for chasan and kallah


On 9/10/07, Aryeh Stein <aesrusk@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>I don't recall _ever_ being at a Chasunah Minyan that said Tachanun,
> even
> when the Chasan was _not_ Davening then.>>>
>
> ========================================
>
> According to RSZA (in Halichos Shlomo), when davening mincha in a hall
> during a seudas bar mitzvah or pidyon haben, tachanun is omitted.  R'
> Shmuel Salant would omit tachanun on any day on which he was receiving
> a chashuva guest.  While we are not noheg like R' SS, in the situation
> of the bar mitzvah or pidyon haben, it is vadai a zman simcha.  (ad
> kan divrei Halichos Shlomo)
>
> Al achas kamah v'kamah, at a Chasunah Minyan - regardless of whether
> the chasan is present or not.
>
> KT and KvCT,
> Aryeh
>

This is a real life story that occured just few weeks ago at Cong. Beth
Aaron in Teaneck.
Downstairs their was - not a chasuna - but a sheva brachos with the hassan
and kallah preesent. Upstarsr in the main shul there was a Mincha Minyan

Question: should the main shul have said Tahanun?

No one in shul knew for sure; - and since I was a guest a the Sheva Brachos
I omited it for myself.  I chatted with the rabbi alter on and he said he
could hear my sevara. But he did not pasken. Anyone have a clear p'sak on
this?
-
Kesiva vaChasima Tova
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Message: 7
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgluck@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 18:00:58 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Kosel vs shul in Old City


R' Daniel Eidensohn:
> I davened mincha today in the Ramban's shul in the Old City.
> 
> Someone objected and said that I should have prayed at the Kosel since
> it has greater sanctity.
> 
> Is there such a priority?

B'rov Am Hadras Melech?

KT and KVCT,
MYG




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Message: 8
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgluck@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:14:48 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Intuition - sources


R' Daniel Eidensohn:
>  To reiterate I stated that daas Torah is the intuition that results
> from immersion and mastery of Torah. It is not universal commonsense.
> Nor is there only one daas Torah. Thus gedolim can legitimately
> disagree
> even though all sides are relying on their daas Torah
> 
> This highly trained intuition is what is known in the literature as
> being an expert and it is found in all areas of knowledge. See my "Daas
> Torah" page 168-173, "Descartes Error" and "Blink" for support for this
> from research literature. 

See also my blog post
http://esefer.blogspot.com/2007/08/learningreview-methodologies.html and the
Scientific American article that it cites.

KT and KVCT,
MYG




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Message: 9
From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:24:57 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] An interesting Source list on Abortion and Stem


You can find source sheets with comments at
 http://www.templeisraeloflb.org/Rabbi/abortion.pdf .

-- 
Kesiva vaChasima Tova
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Message: 10
From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:32:30 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Sinas Hinam


On 8/23/07, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 13:26:03 -0700 I wrote to Areivim:
> :> The Tzeduqim in the days of bayis sheini were bad. We know they sent
> :> malshinim to the Romans, they sent people to lie to Sanhedrin about
> :> qiddush hachodesh, they were anti-Yahadus and cost us lives. So how
> :> is hating or one of the other movements "chinam"? It is because if
> :> our hatred were fueled by ahavas Hashem, we would be investing more
> :> effort in vilifying our own chata'im than in vilifying theirs, and
> :> them for embracing those chata'im as positive values.
>
> Sin'as chinam is usually taken to be causeless, meichinam. My post led
> to a discussion here of whether sin'as chinam include sin'ah that has
> a cause, but is lechinam, purposeless.
>
>
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -mi



See The Mishna Brura re: "mal'igim alav " [siman aleph]

AISI you ARE permittedto hate people  who act in a certain way, but first
you have to give them private hochacha. It's kind of like eidim giving
hasra'ah.  You have to be sure that the person is acting with malice  - or
at least conviction - and is not really a shoggeg and does not know better.

When Hazal attacked Tzadokim they probably had their share of disuccoins at
least with the group in general.

Whne WE hate a given Jew for being a member of a group, we often do not take
the time to discern if the INDIVIDUAL is guilty of suspected behavior or
not.  Hating this person w/o INVESTING th time and effort required to make
such a discernment first is lechinam, It's FREE. You have not gone through
proper the hoops and therefore have not paid the price.

-- 
Kesiva vaChasima Tova
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Message: 11
From: "Rich, Joel" <JRich@sibson.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 09:56:44 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Home Rule


We know that a system of batei dinim and shotrim were to be set up in
Eretz Yisrael.  We also know that the melech had broad extrajudicial
powers to promote the common welfare.  Do we know what type, if any,
local structure enforced the latter (e.g. did the shotrim enforce the
melech's decrees, were there local mayors who interpreted the kings
guidance for the social good...?)
KVCT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
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Message: 12
From: "Dov Kay" <dov_kay@hotmail.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 09:19:21 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] Selichos before Chatzos


<<And even Qabblists say the following: You are supposed to go thru 4
levels  before Amidah vi the structure of Birchos Hashachar, Korbanonos,
Psukei Dezimar and Shema etc.  BUT when you are late you daven with the
tzibbur and throw away the structure. As one Qabblist explained in class -
that is the power of the Tzibbur.>>

I am also no savant of Kabbalah.  However, I understand that minhag Chabad 
and the p'sak of the Ben Ish Chai is that latecomers, r'l, do not skip the 4 
levels even in order to daven the Amidah b’tzibbur.

With regard to Selichos, RMF in IG permitted an early recitation (ie before 
chatzos, but preferably at 1/3 of the night), but only as a horaas shaah for 
one year (his words) and on the basis that an announcement be made to that 
effect.  I don't think you can bring a proof from YK, as this is clearly a 
sui generis eis ratzon.

Kol tuv
Dov Kay

_________________________________________________________________
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Message: 13
From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 10:18:50 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Selichos - Especially before Midnight


R' Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> Here are several reasons to be meikel to allow it at night:.
> 1. There is a virtually  uncontested Minhag to say Selichos on Kol
> Nidre nght,  Thus we have a precedent!   BUT I have bee ntold that > YK is an exception!

My understanding is that the early morning (from chatzos to daylight) is an "ays ratzon". And that the night before chatzos is emphatically NOT an ays ratzon. Except for YK, which is ENTIRELY an ays ratzon.

> 2. Furthermore why not EXTEND the exception  for YK throughout the
> Selichos season  - given that our Selichos are structured on the YK > model to begin with?

Because the nature of the universe is not subject to our whim or convention. If the night is not already an ays ratzon, our decision to consider it so won't change anything.

Just my guess...

Akiva Miller




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