Avodah Mailing List

Volume 22: Number 10

Mon, 18 Dec 2006

• 1. Re: [Areivim] URL: article about halachic (Chana Luntz)
• 2. Re: Yetzer HoRa Issues (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 3. Re: Chanukah priorities (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 4. Re: Prophet - mashgiach or godol hador? (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Re: Halachic Infertility (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: "v'imru amen" (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: [Areivim] URL: article about halachic (Daniel Israel)
• 8. Matisyahu, Pikuach Nefesh Dochah Shabbos (Elchanan Schulgasser)
• 9. Chanukah priorities (Minden)
• 10. halachic infertility (sober@pathcom.com)
• 11. Re: [Areivim] URL: article about halachic (A & C Walters)
• 12. Al petach beito mibachutz (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: Al petach beito mibachutz (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Al petach beito mibachutz (Micha Berger)
• 15. Halachic justification for short sleeves (M Cohen)

RAYW writes:

> This argument is flawed. The case is not necessarily similar 
> to rediyas hapas, but maybe be similar to yibum. The man has 
> a mitzvah of yibum, which is overrides the issur of ashes ach 
> thorough the din of "asei docheh loy sasey". The problem is, 
> though, is that the mitzvah of yibbum is only chayav on the 
> man, whilst the issur (kores) is on both. Nevertheless we do 
> see a din of ADL"S and it is obviously mutur. The gedolei 
> Achronim ask the question and one answer (from memory R' 
> Elchonon Wasserman Hi"d in K"H) is that one person's dechieh 
> HER issur too. Therefore by our case too.

The difference though between our case and yibum is that with yibum -
there can be no kiyum of the mitzvah of yibum without being doche her
issur.  While in our case in the vast majority of cases there is no
conflict - only if a woman has a relatively unusual cycle is there any
question of conflict.

Also I do wonder - the mitzvah of pru u'rvu we generally seem to hold,
occurs only upon the birth of the children (of the correct sex) -
whereas does not the mitzvah of yibum has its kiyum in the act itself?

Also as mentioned, everybody seems to allow the man to give a sample for
IVF purposes (and indeed, from what I understand, the first sample is
pretty much never used in the IVF procedure itself, but is only given
for analysis to see if it would be suitable) - why is this not
analogous?
 
> A Y Walters
> Beis Shemesh

Shabbat Shalom

Chana

R' Micha Berger wrote:
> One problem I have with the concept of YH as literally being
> a drive to do evil is that it presumes an innate knowledge of
> good and evil. In which case, why be softer on the tinoq
> shenishba? So I'm perfectly fine with such shitos; as long as
> one can explain why then we misname it.

Your initial words say that the YH is "a drive to do evil", but if 
you are presuming "an innate knowledge of good and evil", then it 
seems to me that what you really mean is that the YH is "a drive to 
do things that are evil, regardless of whether or not the person has 
been taught which things are evil and which are not."

I agree that this is an untenable definition. It seems to require 
some sort of magically-acquired innate knowledge of what is good and 
what is bad.

I would prefer to say that the YH is a drive to do the things which 
one understands to be evil, regardless of whether or not they 
actually *are* evil.

This solves your problem of the tinoq shenishba, because it is not 
the Yetzer Hara which drives him to do this aveira or that, but a 
simple lack of knowing these halachos.

> Ever notice how we often end up teitching YH in ways
> that don't make it inherently evil? Why?

Because it's *not* inherently evil. In fact, the Medrash says that 
the YH is *very good*. (I could've sworn Rashi brought that Medrash. 
Good thing I checked before posting. It's in the Ramban on Bereshis 
1:31.)

Akiva Miller

R' Joel Rich asked:
> Please rate the following options with sources if available:
> 1 daven maariv btzibbur before tzeits and then light after tzeits
> 2 daven maariv byichdut after tzeits and then light
> 3 light after tzeits and daven after lighting btzibbur

This list is incomplete, as there might be other options available as 
well, such as davening maariv btzibbur after and then lighting.

Also, in making these choices, it is very significant to identify 
whether or not one has a minyan kavua for maariv, which he normally 
attends on a regular basis. If so, it seems to me that the top choice 
would be to light as early as feasible, and then daven maariv with 
the minyan kavua, regardless of how late it is.

(Unfortunately, in my experience, many people seem to have gotten it 
into their heads that maariv on Chanuka is different than maariv the 
rest of the year, and so they daven earlier than usual, and the late 
minyanim suffer for it.)

Another important factor: This whole thread would seem to presume 
that we're *not* talking about someone whose minhag is to light at 
shkia.

Akiva Miller

 :                                                  While there are
times
: when the prophet has a specific message or action that is required -
but
: he is not a leader.  In contrast we today view our gedollim as being
: endowed with ruach hakodesh.

Some of us. Others don't even acknowledge a difference in kind between
people who are greater than us (gedolim, translated literally)
quantitatively and those they lead.

I am unhappy with your casting this into terms of mashgiach vs gadol for
this reason. There is no concept in contemporary derakhim of a mashgiach
hador, but it's about as native to Yahadus as "gadol hador". In any
case, the poseiq has a shadow of the Sanhedrin's authority, not the
melekh's. If we can take the gadol hador and make him a stand-in nasi,
why not take a mashgiach and make him a stand-in navi? Don't out
political actions have to be informed by values even in areas where
there is no clear pesaq? May our body politic be a menuval birshus
haTorah?


-mi
==================================================================

R' YBS spoke of exactly this point and said iirc that  HKB"H purposely
split the powers because he did not trust man, even the most pious. My
understanding is that when we give leaders (I don't want to use an
emotionally charged word) the power of navi, melech, kohain,shofet all
wrapped into one, we are going against human nature and the system that
HKB"H set up for us as an archtype ( actually these 2 points are really
1).

KT
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On Fri, December 15, 2006 7:04 am, Chana Luntz wrote:
: Also as mentioned, everybody seems to allow the man to give a sample for
: IVF purposes (and indeed, from what I understand, the first sample is
: pretty much never used in the IVF procedure itself, but is only given
: for analysis to see if it would be suitable) - why is this not
: analogous?

The permissability of providing a sample for AIH or even for fertility testing
is not necessarily grounded on asei docheh lav. Rather, it's the word
"levatalah". It is not bitul to use it in an attempt to fulfil piryah
verivyah. It's therefore hutrah, not dechuyah. Which is why I thought it was
possible that a poseiq who considers AIH to be a qiyum of piryah verivyah to
decide it's the simpler choice to permit.

IM EH 2:18 and Yabia Omer EH 2:1 permit AIH benidon didan.

It might even be arguable that being yotzei a derabbanan or even a minhag is
sufficient tachlis for it not to qualify as levatalah. I don't know. I would
bet  the derabannan does qualify, similar to the way an issur derabbanan can
make a halachic reality and thereby "kasher" milk on erev Pesach.


BTW, what is "lashevet"? A regular asmachta, or divrei soferim?

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Tue, December 12, 2006 10:27 pm, RSBA revived this post from RELPhM:
:> Siddur Otzar Hatefilos, Likutei Maharich, RS Schwab, Boruch She'omar all
:> say that we are whispering to the Malochim - that accompany a person all
:> the time. [Maybe 'oseh sholom BIMEROMOV' indicates this?] The earliest
:> source seems to be Mateh Moshe - which some cite.
:> The OH also brings a nusach - IIRC - Machzor [or Siddur] Roma - that
:> indeed does not include the 'Ve'imru Omein' at the end of SE.

: This is a bedieved explanation (aetiology). It's simply an error: people
: automatically went on with "ve'imru omein" after "ouse sholoum". The
: same error occurs at the end of benshen, unless somebody is leading it.

RSBA, I just want to point out that you just quoted another example of a
minhag based upon a ta'os. And, like I suggested WRT dancing SA night (which
also applies to ST night as well, as was later clarified), it's a true minhag
rather than a hanhagah or minhag ta'os because some positive kavanah was found
post-facto. And in fact, to repeat myself further, *every* mihag is started by
the people and ratified by such sevaros, as opposed to taqanos which start
with the rabbanim and then need to get accepted by the people.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 05:04:34 -0700 Chana Luntz 
<chana@kolsassoon.org.uk> wrote:
>Also I do wonder - the mitzvah of pru u'rvu we generally seem to 
>hold,
>occurs only upon the birth of the children (of the correct sex) -
>whereas does not the mitzvah of yibum has its kiyum in the act 
>itself?

It's not so clear, IIRC.  See, for example, Chagiga 2b, Tosfos D"H 
Lisa Shifcha, where it appears that the mitzvah occurs with "gamar 
biah."  Again, if IIRC later meforshim discuss this point exactly.  
See also the Minchas Chinuch.  

--
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu

I am looking for a Chazal (maybe), on which a shiur by R' Yaakov Weinberg
zt"l was largely based (the shiur is "The Essense of Chanuka", available at
aishaudio.com).

As told, the Yavanim would wait until Shabbos and then go out to find the
caves in which Jews were hiding in order to kill them (the Jews) while they
(again the Jews) were defenseless. This slaughter went on until Matisyahu
told everyone that pikuach nefesh is dochah Shabbos.

Of course, there are questions on this (not the least of which is you didn't
need Matisyahu to know that PN is dochah Shabbos) and the shiur answers many
of them. But my question is simply if anyone could point me to the source of
this...Chazal? Rishon?

Thank you and a Lichtige Chanuka,
Elchanan Schulgasser
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RJR wrote:
> Please rate the following options with sources if available:
>
> 1 daven maariv btzibbur before tzeits and then light after tzeits
>
> 2 daven maariv byichdut after tzeits and then light
>
> 3 light after tzeits and daven after lighting btzibbur

In real life, say maaref as is your habit, be it betzibber right after minche, betzibber bizmanne, or beyoched if you don't have a minyen. Light the menoure before dinner when all are present. (Tradition, e. g. minhogem deka"k Worms) Dinner will typically be after tzeis anyway, a possible maaref bizmanne might be before or after dinner.

In theory, a multi-dimensional matrix is of need: betzibber or beyoched, oring before or after the shkie, after tzeis or before tzeis (repeating shma after tzeis), lighting as early as possible, lighting before or after shkie, before or after nacht, lighting before or after maaref.

Lipman Phillip Minden
http://lipmans.blogspot.com

The end of my previous post on this subject was very garbled. Based on 
rough recollections (still without sefarim), I think there are a bunch 
of approaches to artificial insemination before mikveh - some poskim 
approve, some don't, some require tevilah d'oraita first so that she is 
only niddah d'rabbanan at the time of insemination. Obviously no 
problem starting zayin neki'im earlier, but it presumably would get 
interrupted and have to be resumed due to potential for pleitat 
shichvat zera.

Probably better to ignore that whole section of the post, which wasn't 
well thought out. But if you didn't ignore it and are planning 
(justifiably) to jump on me, I hope I have ameliorated it slightly.

- Ilana

The Rishonim in beginning of Ish Mekadah ask how can the gemoro bring a
statement from mishbeh "isha miskadeshes bo ubeshulcho" the gemoro learns
"mitzvah b yoser etc" Lechoro she doesn't have a mitzvah at all. Th Ritv"o
(I think) answers that she has a mitsvah mesayao, or a kium with no chiuyv.
Similar to makhlokos Rambam"m Rava"d if sh ecan make a brocho on mitzsvas
eisei shezman gromo.

Whilst yibum is only mutur alks "ei efshar lkeem beinyan acher" there is
nevertheless a dimyon to Kelaium be'tzitzis which is not. Also, I never said
that this case was ADL"S. (because it's not IELKBI"A) only that if it was,
it would be for the woman also.

R' Elchonon in Kovetz HaOros samech tes, ois chof hei to chof ches that Tos'
asks the question that the issur (of lo yiye koydesh) occurs betchilas bilah
whereas the mitzvah (pru vrvu) occurs only at sof bila, therefore it is not
docheh. R' Elchonon asks that lechoroh the kium mitzvah is only beshas
leiada, and he says that the mayseh mitzveh is what is needed, not the kium.
Also he brings the Ra"n which says that the techilas meisah mitzvah is
docheh, and the same thing here.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Click to get free info on kitchen remodeling at 50% - 70% off
http://tagline.bidsystem.com/fc/KCuXzzUQCQzcZsF4Is9nBqV2QjGY7b/

It's a reasonably not-cold evening in Brooklyn, so I'm sitting al
petach beiti mibachutz, watching my menorah burn (and not be stolen...),
and enjoying the wonders of WiFi.  I understand that in EY that is the
way people do it (al petach beito, not necessarily laptop-in-lap).
Is there a good reason why I've never heard of anyone in chu"l doing
it that way, even where the weather permits it?

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

On Sun, Dec 17, 2006 at 05:09:24PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
: Is there a good reason why I've never heard of anyone in chu"l doing
: it that way, even where the weather permits it?

I think it's just minhag avos from a day and place when being too proud
in one's performance Judaism would be dangerous.

My father showed me a Sefas Emes that gives this thought: In EY, where
we have our own society, the fight against Hellenism is in the shuq.
Closing the door was enough to keep it out. In chu"l, we need to bring
our menoros inside the home...

(Whether the SE's thought stands for current Israel, where Misyavnim
are a significant percentage of the population, is left as an excercise
for the reader. We can all guess what each of the regulars would say,
so let's not bother.)

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
micha@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507      

On Sun, Dec 17, 2006 at 05:45:10PM -0500, I wrote:
: My father showed me a Sefas Emes that gives this thought...

Another Sefas Emes (quoting Chidushei haRim) which has the beauty of
being sharable even while standing on a street corner waiting for the
light (right RZL? :-) --

Since gemara lacks niqud, it could be read as saying that one needs to
light the menorah ad shtichlah HERGEIL min hashoq!

It is only when observant Jews are "FFH - frum from habit" that there is
a growth of Misyavnim in the Jewish population.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and
micha@aishdas.org        this was a great wonder. But it is much more
http://www.aishdas.org   wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "mensch"!     -Rabbi Israel Salanter

I also had the same difficulty; good RZ pple who are very careful with
halacha in every way, but wives w/ short sleeves.


in k'doshim t'hiyu (a compendium of halacha (and kulos) wrt to
tznius/boy-girl interactions/negiah/mixed dancing/yichud/etc for the bnai
Akiva population) on pg 121 footnote 13 he quotes R shtiglitz in 'shmaatin
pg 42' who says 'ain leemchos' for those who do not cover their elbows.

I do not have the sefer 'shmaatin', and therefore do not know the sevaros
involved.

Mordechai Cohen
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